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Misogyny in Hip-Hop

 
 
TeN
17:57 / 06.08.04
All of you who have pirated the Alt. Hip-Hop thread (I blame myself as well) with discussions of mysoginy in hop-hop, continue your discussions here.

Thank you.
 
 
Char Aina
02:58 / 07.08.04
mate, you might want to sell it a bit more.

i dunno.
 
 
Char Aina
03:26 / 07.08.04
okay.
one thing. well, a few, kinda.

i am still waiting to hear why having your basement kitted out as a strip bar=mysoginy from fly, who so far only suggested i become aware of the context.

i am aware of the context, but i am no wiser as to why the ownership of stripping equipment(and even its use by women employed to do so) constitutes the hatred of women.

i am likewise baffled as to how enjoying the thought of one woman's death is the same as hating all women.

fly, you mention the refrain 'crazy bitch' at the end of the song. while i in no way think this word is positive, i dont think it is a signifier of mysoginy.
i know am not alone in calling my male and female friends 'bitch' with no regard to their sex or gender. while i wouldnt claim that the word has become in some way neutered, i do think that it alone cannot be expected to stand as proof of a hatred of women.





it may seem like i am overly concered with proving this song to be right on... i dont really give a rats ass if it is. i am concerned that my standards of sexims and mysoginy are going to have to go under review.

to this end, a full understanding of what it is supposed to be that i am missing (what it is that bearded indie rock fans like me [neither bearded nor indie] dont get about how to treat women) would help me immensely.

the original thread
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:07 / 07.08.04
Context = the context that Outkast are often hailed as being "not like those horrible misogynistic rappers" when it's not really clear how they differ. (Anyone who doesn't think this phenomenon exists wasn't reading the broadsheet newspapers when Speakerboxxx/TLB dropped.) I don't really care what your definition of misogyny is, toksik. I just have a problem with double standards; since I've already clarified that I'm not accusing you of having them, let's move on, shall we?

There's a really simple answer to this question every time it comes up: Western society is predominantly sexist, therefore so is a lot of the culture it produces, hip hop included. Western society is also predominantly racist, so hip hop gets more than its fair share of the blame for this at the expense of other kinds of culture being produced. Both these things are bad, fighting against them at the same time is difficult but needs to be done without falling into either trap. The end.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:01 / 07.08.04
Waitwaitwait- but Stankonia included a skit with two Women discussing men as sexual objects (thus subverting the standard stereotype of men discussing women as sexual objects in hip-hop), "I'll call before I come" which promises orgasams to the ladies before Andre and Big Boi blow their load and "Miss Jackson", which is all about a man's responsibility to his children and their mother.

That seems pretty non-sexist to me. So who gives a shit if Big Boi has a pole in his basement? He likes sexy women being sexy. I'm sure you wouldn't attack women liking sexy men being sexy. And poledancing, done right, is pretty fucking sexy.

Did you even consider some women find poledancing empowering?

Outkast are not perfect (as the last album goes to show, boom-tish). Outkast may not be feminists. In terms of overground hip hop culture they are progressive in their attitudes, and that's about the best you can expect from anyone.
 
 
Char Aina
13:01 / 07.08.04
I don't really care what your definition of misogyny is, toksik.

...but i do.
i was fairly sure that what i was describing was not, and then you told me it was. that is the crux of this for me.

it worries me that i can asses something so incorrectly, if indeed i did, as it therefore becomes more probable that i wouldnt notice if i was mysoginistic myself.

hey, if you cant be fucked, thats fine.
fair enough.
i was going to drop it anyway until this thread sprang up, as you didnt reply to my PM.

to be honest, i think this thread may as well be deleted...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:25 / 07.08.04
I'm not sure why it was started in the first place, considering that the original thread had already moved on from this discussion by the time it appeared. It might as well stick around for now - you never know, something productive *might* come of it...
 
 
Char Aina
18:45 / 07.08.04
yeah right.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:59 / 09.08.04
Erm, hello, having a strip bar in your basement is misogynistic because it means you want to watch women take their clothes off for money thus you're making them in to objects that you can consume for your pleasure. Do you not think it's slightly degrading to treat a woman like a necklace/beer/car? Pile on top of that the idea that 150 years ago a woman couldn't own property... was in fact property. Oh, why am I bothering?

(There is something wrong with the world. My head is exploding. I need a cold compress.)
 
 
Char Aina
06:48 / 09.08.04
i was hoping you were bothering to further understanding among your peers.

your take on stripping seems to be very disempowering for the stripper.
is that necessarily so?
i have yet to meet a weak minded stripper. that doesnt mean they dont exist, but it does at least mean that they are not the only kind.

i'm sorry, anna, but i was hoping for more than that.

and finally, how do you know there is money involved?
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:51 / 09.08.04
Wait... how does being in a disempowering job = weak-minded? Like all those dudes in sweatshops as just dumbarses? I don't think you actually think this just that your seeming assumption that if strippers have their shit together their job must be basically ok doesn't really hold.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:56 / 09.08.04
Well, a lot of stripppers have been on record as saying that that they're feminists and find their jobs empowering. Saying they're wrong doesn't make it so, and if people here want to discuss misogyny in hip hop, frankly they should be able to without people telling them it's a stupid conversation, they don't care about others' opinions, and that they can't be bothered to discuss it. Fine, don't, be that way, etc. Thanks for the input, of course.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:17 / 09.08.04
Did you even consider some women find poledancing empowering?

I was just looking at an old thread in which I had to say to Radiator: "Am I going to have to do that thing where I cut and paste things from the last post I wrote just to get you to read them more closely?" Funny how little things can change.

One more time, and that's it: I've never passed judgment on whether having a strip club in your basement makes you a misogynist. I suspect there are too many variables of which we cannot know the details (not being regular visitors to Big Boi's house) for us to be able to make an informed judgment on that point. However, the fact is that a significant section of the media treats Outkast's relationship with women and sex differently than it treats the same aspect of other rappers' work, and the reasons for this are not entirely clear. The kinds of things other rappers get castigated for include: videos set in strip clubs; videos or records sleeves that prominently feature more-than-half-naked women; using words such as "bitch" and "ho" in their lyrics. Outkast do all these things. So whether you conclude that these things are misogynistic in and of themselves or not (and I'm sorry if it annoys you that people are tired of this debate, Jack, but I've summarised my position above and it's one I've arrived at after hearing many different sides of this debate many times before), the fact is that there does appear to be some kind of double standard going on.

The closest thing to a reasonable explanation I've ever heard is that when you examine their lyrics closely, Outkast describe relationships in a complicated and ambiguous way that's not always palatable but is very human (see the sorry-but-not-that-sorry 'Ms Jackson', or 'The Rooster' for very good examples of this). This is true, but it's also true of most half-decent hip hop artists too. I think a much simpler explanation is that having decided that Outkast's music is more palatable than many other hip hop artists, a lot of journalists etc believe they need the moral high ground as well...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:29 / 09.08.04
Toksik: i am still waiting to hear why having your basement kitted out as a strip bar=mysoginy from fly, who so far only suggested i become aware of the context.

Seems I'm not the only one with my wires crossed, old bean. Have you considered, you know, being a little less highly strung about these things?

The bulk of my post was in response to Context = the context that Outkast are often hailed as being "not like those horrible misogynistic rappers" when it's not really clear how they differ. If you were refering to hip-hop as a whole with those horrible misogynistic rappers, then your post above stands - there are indeed lots of rappers who don't hate women, so Outkast aren't a singluar entity by any means. However, it's very easy to read the above as a statement that Outkast are just the same as "those nasty misogynistic rappers", which couldn't be further from the truth.

There is, after all a world of difference between the sentiments expressed on most of Stankoina (which I'm using because it's the group's last album to date as a singular entity) and the sentiments expressed in most of Eminem's output or the "Findem, Fuckem and Flee" school of gansta.

Moving away for a second, does the insane level of mysoginy make Licence to Ill less funny? I always got a hoot out of how three pasty nerds like the beastie boys could even claim half of the stuff that goes on in that album. In comparison The Slim Shady LP just comes across as plain chilling, because Eminem seems like the kid of guy who would do shit that he raps about, or at least do shit in the same vein as the things he raps about.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:04 / 09.08.04
You know the worst thing about this whole thread? The fact that it's now top of the Google results for "mysoginy".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:40 / 09.08.04
How's about for "misogyny"?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:53 / 09.08.04
Funnily enough, it doesn't appear at all in that particular search.

www.dictionary.com, guys.
 
 
Char Aina
18:02 / 09.08.04
sorry if i have bored you, fly, it was never my intention.

i think this became difficult to let go when you made it personal. the "thank you for proving my point", inferring that i was in disagreement with you because i am a blinkered and ignorant fool; and the later comment lumping my opinion in with those of whom you dislike.

now, i understand and appreciate that you did retract half of that and expand upon the other, but you can possibly see how i was worried about my apprent inclusion in this foolish and racist group of elitist music fans.

the suggestion seems to be that i am pretty damn close to being accepting of hatred of women by my ignorance, and i resent that.

your boredom with this is understandable, but do you perhaps see that if you had been more calm to begin with you could have avoided anything like this much discussion?



i would still very much like to hear from AdL why she thinks that a pole is necessarily a sexist item to own, and from anyone else who has a perspective.

anna?
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:16 / 09.08.04
I don't know, I think for most of us it's so blindingly obvious what's sexist about a pole-dancing club (as opposed to the relatively neutral and value-free object, "a pole") that we can only assume you are kidding when you claim not to know. I mean, Nelly understood (cf. Hot in Herre: 'Stop pacing, time wastin', I got a friend with a pole in the basement' [Woman's voice, outraged] 'What!?' [Nelly] 'Oh, I'm just kiddin' like Jason'). Do you really think that a set-up where women are presented as sex objects for the visual pleasure of men is unsexist? Would you, like, want your sister working there?

To again clarify (what I think is or should be obvious) saying that a particular workplace is sexist is in no way to suggest that every woman who works there is brain damaged, brain washed, or stupid, or that there's nothing empowering or positive about it. I mean, it was obviously empowering in some ways when women were allowed to enter the workforce (say, during WWII), but you would hardly say the workplaces they entered weren't deeply systematically sexist, would you? Ditto motherfucking strip clubs, for crying out loud.
 
 
Char Aina
23:16 / 09.08.04
Would you, like, want your sister working there?

i dont have a sister, but if my step-sister wanted to i wouldnt be against it.
(i wouldnt watch her dance, sure, but thats just because it might feel just a wee bit awkward.)

while i agree that much of the sex industry is sexist, i dont think that means it all is.

anna asks if i think it's slightly degrading to treat a woman like a necklace/beer/car, and, yeah. i do. i think its pretty fucking objectionable to treat any human being as less than yourself, but i dont see that as a necessary part of watching someone strip.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:29 / 09.08.04
Uh, sure, but there's a difference between 'watching someone strip' and 'owning a venue in an industry entirely devoted to reproducing a gendered division between sex objects and men'. It's not like the pole-dancing clubs have equal opportunity hiring policies. At least, in my neighbourhood.
 
 
Char Aina
23:31 / 09.08.04
but you would hardly say the workplaces they entered weren't deeply systematically sexist, would you?

no, not at all.
almost every workplace harbours sexism even to this day, as do most things involving humans. but there are good and bad employers in all industries and times, i reckon.
 
 
Char Aina
23:36 / 09.08.04
Uh, sure, but there's a difference between 'watching someone strip' and 'owning a venue in an industry entirely devoted to reproducing a gendered division between sex objects and men'.

yeah, and thats the difference between the club being a public venue and it being a basement for private use.
its not an erotic empire built on sex, but a basement bar with some poles, round which guests of the homeowner may dance.
 
 
Jackie Susann
00:21 / 10.08.04
I am finding this argument slightly surreal but anyway... would you care to reflect on the kind of power relations that would see a) Big Boi having enough houseguests who drop by feeling like stripping to make a basement pole a worthwhile investment and b) the likely genders of those doing the stripping and those doing the watching, respectively, and the historical reasons for that division?

I mean if you think Big Boi secretly wants the pole because he likes doing his Showgirls impression for visitors fine, but I think that kinda misses the point.
 
 
Char Aina
09:24 / 10.08.04
if you are saying that ownership of strip club=hatred of women, then i disagree.if you are saing that alsmot every strip club hhas elememnts of sexism, and that many of them do go as far as being mysoginistic, then i agree.

and yeah, i think the sex industry is one hell of a mess of gender divide. i just dont think that the individual elements of it need be.


I mean if you think Big Boi secretly wants the pole because he likes doing his Showgirls impression for visitors fine, but I think that kinda misses the point.


see, i think that sails pretty darn close to the original point.
we dont know his reasons for owning it, and i dont see owning it as necessarily a bad thing. there are mysoginy free explanations, and thats what i have been getting at.

upthread...
i am aware of the context, but i am no wiser as to why the ownership of stripping equipment(and even its use by women employed to do so) constitutes the hatred of women.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
11:04 / 10.08.04
Let's put all this in some context here, shall we? The stripping industry also includes plenty of men who strip for women*. There are always going to be people of all sexes and sexual orientations who want to see people strip, and there will always be people of all sexes and sexual orientations who like to make a living out of stripping. This will of course attract people who might like to make a buck out of the two meeting in a strip club.

I don't think that's innately sexist. It's only ever going to be as sexist as the society and culture it exists within allows it to be. Which leads us in a roundabout way to the fact hip hop or pretty much anything will only ever be as sexist as the culture and society it exists within allows it to be.






*possibly named "Fully Equiped Jim"
 
 
Char Aina
15:50 / 10.08.04
your last post pretty much says what i believe as well.
lets remember that i was told having a club was mysoginistic, though yeah?
sexist and mysoginistic are different, if related.

i'm prepared to drop it, as i dont think anyone who disagrees on this fundamental point cares to explain why.
i dont think i need to have the big rethink i was fearing. a wee one would seem to be sufficient.

of course i am willing to get deeper into it if anyone feels like it.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:26 / 11.08.04
Wow. I can't believe there's a whole thread devoted to Big Boi's strip club. Maybe someoane should clarify the topic abstract.
 
 
Char Aina
13:51 / 11.08.04
it was only here to make us leave the other thread anyway... i still think it may as well get deleted.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:44 / 11.08.04
Maybe we could start talking about what songs we'd pick if we were performing at Big Boi's strip club.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:58 / 14.08.04
Alas, only Big Boi's friends strip in his basement, so that's probably a bit pointless, Crunchy.
 
 
Char Aina
22:03 / 14.08.04
couldn't you get us an invite, skip?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:15 / 14.08.04
I'll do what I can, Toksy. New thread!
 
 
--
02:58 / 17.08.04
Lil' Kim's hot.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:44 / 27.08.04
Hott
 
  
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