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Underground > Temple >

Teams wearing Red and success

06:45 / 05.08.04

the importance of Colour (or color for our US friends) in sport is not so much 'Magickal' but has had me thinking

Over the last thirty years, the most successful football teams in UK soccer, have been Liverpool, Arsenal and Manchester United .....all wear RED

Now I can counter this argument in other fields.....such as the Redcoats were beaten in the War of Independance and Red Russia lost the cold war (though Red China seem to be doing mroe than well in the financial stakes these days!)

even in Soccer, the recent defeat of Portugal (wearing red) by Greece......proves that my own theory is not infallible but I still think it is strange that UK football is so dominated by teams wearing red

Has anybody else ever had any thoughts on this matter

Not a thread of earth shattering importance I admit and probably nonsense but I do think it is strange and it has been niggling away at the back of my head for sometime

Was Shankley a Magician when he got Liverpool to adopt an All Red strip

why are United called the Red Devils?

09:05 / 05.08.04

Is it possible that red only has a winning significance within the UK? So as soon as you go outside, it's a different ballgame (horrible, I know. Couldn't help it).
Perhaps different countries have different winning colours?
Or maybe it's just a coicidence.

09:42 / 05.08.04

you know what, it probably is a coincedence but it could also be the result of some Magickal influence of an overt or accidental nature

Maybe with a history where for hundreds of years, wearing red (ie redcoats) coincided with victory, has produced some kind of entity that favours red on English soil

Maybe an Egregore that nudges victories to the 'red' team on Enlish soil (it cannot be Welsh soil as they wear Red and rarely win anything though as an International team, they do play more games out of Wales than on UK soil)

Wild speculation and nothing to back this up at all other than my crazy theorising but thanks for the additional thoughts and angles

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:49 / 05.08.04

Over the last thirty years, the most successful football teams in UK soccer, have been Liverpool, Arsenal and Manchester United .....all wear RED

Ah, but what about the previous century? Leeds United, Newcastle, Blackpool, Bolton Wanderers, Tottenham Hotspur, Everton, Manchester City... Not to mention Scotland, a part of the UK last time I looked, whose dominant teams have played in green and white and blue. The coincidence of successful teams in England (rather than Britain) and red (also, of course, Arsenal play in red and white, rather than just red) seems to be a comparatively recent trend, certainly more recent than the wearing of red by the British Army.

09:55 / 05.08.04

true

very true

never thought of that

Maybe the success of the England team in 1966, gave the Red Egregore a much needed boost, which was further fueled by Shankleys' ascendant Liverpool

But your point is duly noted and has discredited much of my argument

09:59 / 05.08.04

this might also explain why it is a purely English phenomonen but admittedly, I am more than likely talking bollocks

13:39 / 05.08.04

so it's the magickally OPPOSITE of effect of, say, the red-shirt wearing crew members on Star Trek...

14:06 / 05.08.04

15:28 / 05.08.04

for hundreds of years, wearing red (ie redcoats) coincided with victory

thousands.
spartans and their red cloaks, eh?
that was to hide the blood and to look imposing. my latin teacher said so.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:02 / 06.08.04

Ah, but the Spartans were basically shit. How long did their primacy last, really? 403 to 371? Shit.

1966 might be a good place to start - England wear red, *not* the usual colour, and win the world cup. Shortly thereafter, Manchester United win the European Cup (then again, Celtic...), Liverpool start putting the teams together that will dominate the late 70s and 80s. But then there's Leeds as well...

09:56 / 06.08.04

I loathe Man United I really do, yer alot btter off with the mighty Arsenal!!!

10:00 / 06.08.04

i'M NOT TOO KEEN ON United myself

then again I am a scouser!

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:07 / 06.08.04

And who says the level of discussion in the Temple has gone down?

11:08 / 06.08.04

I guess the Orks in the Warhammer 40k-boardgames were right all along - "red wuns go fasta".

13:29 / 06.08.04

COuldn't be linked with the St Goerges cross do you? (clutching at straws). Maybe linked in with nationalism, which seems to be having something of an up-surgance recently, what with all that hoo-haa with the BNP and UKIP, as well as more and more peole willing to fly the flag- especially around football tournaments- something previously only the domain of thugs and racists finally being re-claimed by the people who make up the majority of the country (ie non thug/racist types).

Oooh! wild speculation abounds!

as fer the lucky empire colour and the spartans. well sure they weren't in power fer very long. but the romans had a real hard-on for them spartan types, to the extent that the re-built the spartan ruins to look much more grand and befitting the people they had come to so admire. thats why their military uniforms had alot of red in them. and as i recall, they were pretty successful.

16:01 / 06.08.04

nazis had red flags.
they lost*, sure, but they seemed quite taken with using things like occult symbolism... maybe a good source for that kind of information would be wherever they got the idea that red was for them?

*one might argue that they would always have lost, but that they lasted longer than they otherwise would have... so victory is perhaps not guranteed, but a helping hand is given when red is used.

to be honest, my first thought was "bollocks" but i am interested if you can build anything mre cohesive out of the idea. i for one have a lot of red in my wardrobe, and i havent always. is there a reason? is there a link between sartorial changes and the differences in my chracter?

17:18 / 06.08.04

Haus,

I like that someone has done some lateral thinking on this forum and has posted with something other than re-iterations of the perrenail same old topics.

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:56 / 06.08.04

Ria: I was referring, joshingly, to the two posts directly above mine. As you might have noticed, I have also been contributing to the thread. Horse. High. Off.

Hmm. I think to assume that the Nazis had red flags because of the occult significance of the colour, and subsequently that the possession of those red flags made the Second World War last longer, is a bit of a reach, suggesting as it does that a particular colour will *always* sway the fates. After all, Nottingham Forest play in red, and have had a pretty torrid decade. Manchester United were relegated playing in red, Liverpool's progressive falling off the pace has taken place in red kits (barring the odd invisible grey kit. No, not invisible like that). The British Empire was red, and look what happened to that.

One might suggest that red has certain associations - courage, martial spirit, and indeed St. George - and that this can be knowingly or unknowingly harnessed to give English teams a fillip, but I'm not sure I'd go further than that.

Throw in white and you resolve at least Leeds and Spurs, and get the colours of St. George - perhaps playing in these colours creates some form of prayer to the lares and penates, or to St. George or England itself? But then you woudl have to try to work out whether teams in other countries playing in the national colours are successful, and indeed why the England team struggles even on home ground...

20:00 / 07.08.04

I think to assume that the Nazis had red flags because of the occult significance of the colour, and subsequently that the possession of those red flags made the Second World War last longer, is a bit of a reach, suggesting as it does that a particular colour will *always* sway the fates.

i hearz ya.
i dont assume that. i was thinking that they picked red for a reason, and wondered what it was. knowing them to be of an occult mind, some of them nazi types, i figured their reasons for doing so might inform the debate.
if a colour was to give the nazis luck, they would still need guns and ammo to wage a war. a football team can wear whatever they like(or even get uri geller in) but if the goalie stands at the half way line, they will probably let a few in.

i dont think wearing a colour could possibly be anything like as important as the years of preparation that have gone into one's training, but it might be a wee help.

so yeah.
assuming red increases the chances of victory, teams in red can lose. they would have to be slightly more shit, is all.

02:19 / 08.08.04

Red corresponds with Mars-War,football being simulated warfare?Does the color Red denote sporting sucess for teams in other countries,thankfully I am an ignoramis as far as fussball is concerned.

05:48 / 08.08.04

Hmm, I read years ago that the colour of a football team's uniform does affect the way they play, for instance, a team wearing black or dark blue will tend to play dirty. Maybe because red is a stimulant in colour therapy, a team in red is more "switched on", more alert and agressive.

22:30 / 08.08.04

apologies, Haus, I tend to skim threads rather than read them.

06:11 / 09.08.04

Thinking of the Nazi's.....hmmmmm yeah they were initially very ssuccessful and their troops were effective if misguided

but using the analogy of a football team, they had a shite coach, who like a Brian Clough character, became increasingly erratic. As has been stated on here, maybe they did last even a few months longer than they would have....it is unprovable ......maybe the strength in Red is it engenders a team spirit?

Maybe the strength of Red is that it creates a group identity. Whilst they were evil bastards and in hindsight destructive for Germany as a whole.....the paraphenalia and motifs such as the Red flags etc, were helpful in converting otherwise sensible Germans into following such a horrible credo

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:27 / 09.08.04

I think we might want to leave the Nazi analogy unless we have some knowledge of Germany between, say, the Ludendorff putsch and the surrender of Admiral Doenitz - it's a little more complex than the managerial career of Brian Clough.

Back on football - football is, of course, a highly ritualised environment, both in itself and also in the attitudes of those who participate in it. Many footballers have traditions they observe religiously - coming onto the pitch first or last, putting on their shirts in the tunnel, that sort of thing. This extends to, possibly, Don Revie having Elland Road exorcised in the belief that it suffered under a Romany curse. These aren't tied to a clear religious structure - they are more like hoodoo, perhaps? Help me out, Gypsy Lantern...

10:49 / 09.08.04

Disgraced'

admittedly, the Brian Clough line was flippant but I do not think we need throw the baby out with the bathwater here. The Nazi link is relevant in that they thought it important or effective enough to include in their regalia

Comparing the use of colour employed by a group of Fascists with Magickal overtones, is not really the same thing as a football team but the colour and not the reason for existing is the important factor and what is up for discussion. Sometimes we restrict topics too much and whilst in your role as Moderator this is a duty (and often needed)......can I ask that we let this topic develop as it will?

I asked the original question and whilst this is admittedly deviating, it is an interesting deviation that I personally welcome as it is a growing topic....laterally at least

10:51 / 09.08.04

by the way....never heard that Don Revie story before

that was great

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:04 / 09.08.04

Darling, you are welcome to talk about Nazis. I suggest only that you know something about European history before you try. If so, all is well, if not you are likely to annoy those who do and potentially mislead those who do not. I suggested Ludendorf and Doenitz as a pair of handy bookends. Whaddayasay?

trouser the trouserian

12:13 / 09.08.04

According to Liberpool Museum's battle gallery, the British Army wore red coats into battle because:
Commanders needed to see where their men were to direct the battle. Camouflage was not necessary because fighting was at close range amidst dense gunpowder smoke.
I have also come across the suggestion that the British took up the practice of wearing red coats (from around the time of Cromwell) as it was the cheapest available colour.

Here's a site looking at various associations of the colour red. And here's another one.
This page examines why the Nazis settled on red for their flags.

12:39 / 09.08.04

It's the red and white together which is the key.

Colour of the hashishim, innit? Unless I TOTALLY got lied to in the 80s. (And various other islamic bits and pieces, which AFAICT got integrated into western culture / magic during the crusades.

Not that this ever helped Sheffield United. As Mal from Station 23 used to call out at matches, "Come on you red and white Wizards!"

13:11 / 09.08.04

Disgraced'

thankyou for your gracious response, it appears obvious that I do not know as much about European history as yourself but for the point and topic in question...I think it is pretty immaterial as we are not talking historical fact......just chewing the cud over whether we believe the Nazis employed red in their motifs, for a reason.

The whole point of the thread was just idle musing over whether the colour red is significant in Sport and this has developed into the importance of the colour red in any TEAM OR grouping. Whilst you might get annoyed at people whose knowledge base or book shelf is not quite as extensive as your own.....that really isn't the topic in question and not pertinent to this chat (admittedly in my opinion)
I do not think and I do not believe anybody on here has suggested that colour plays that important a role as being instrumental in the creation of the Nazi party.......it might have had a minor role in propoganda purposes but not the main causative factor

If you choose not to partake in what you feel is wasted time, please do not let me keep you. I am sure that this topic is reaching the end of it's life anyway, it was starte pretty much tongue in cheek and idle musing and it has developed (again in my opinion) into a reasonably interesting topic

I am sure given enough time and resource material, I can argue about the socio and economic factors that came into play in the foundation and acquisition of power by the Nazi party but that is beyond the scope (for now) of this topic
Unless it develops that way

allright LAAAAAAA!! ME OLD kIDDER

13:19 / 09.08.04

ABSENCE

thanks for that .....again interesting. What if that is the overt reason they gave and the covert was something more esoteric

maybe there is some hidden symbolism (I could be talking bollocks and probably am) but it might have another hidden meaning which we may have hit upon already in this thread

13:42 / 09.08.04

HI again Absence

didn't have a chance to read the whole Swastika link before

VERY interesting and it shows how important Hitler and others thought the colour red to actually be

He wanted the power of the Communist flag but wanted to outdo it

thanks for the link

excellent

22:29 / 09.08.04

"Wolfson and Case (2000) manipulated background colour (red/blue) and sound (loud/quiet) in a series of computer games. Players using a blue screen improved gradually over the session, while red screen players peaked midway and then deteriorated. A similar pattern for heart rate was found, suggesting that arousal was implicated in the effect."

"Initially strong, ready for action in short bursts: lots of red"

"Uncomfortable: strong reds"

perhaps for those on the red team the colour is empowering and invograting, while for those on the other team it produces a state of heightened arousal that leaves them weary before the game is even half over.

or not.

Goodness Gracious Meme

23:23 / 09.08.04

Don Revie having Elland Road exorcised in the belief that it suffered under a Romany curse

So, does anyone know a decent exorcist, then?

21:59 / 10.08.04

I've hungered after a red hooded top fer yonks - sick of wearing black, bloody typical that when I decide to move onto different colours I start a Reiki course where you have to wear black. I have a red tshirt that I use to symbolise energy and I've used it with good ole Ganesh, I've gave up on the old Hinduist paradigm for a bit. Shit I am deviating from the footy orientated thread!!! Urm, cough, splutter,etc.. how about Green and White, for Celtic???!!!! Sahasara and heart chakras in full flow. Isn't it wonderfull how Martin O'Neil healed his team in Ameriky (hats off to Wurzel Gummidge fans) and now his wife has recovered!!! The ole Shamrocks for that good time Emerald feeling!!!!!!