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2002-"Whatcha Gonna Do??"-Call 2 Arms

  
  

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Lothar Tuppan
19:10 / 02.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
On the other hand, a bit of cynicism is a good idea in deciding whether or not a coven is worth one's time, energy and effort. Rex could have been more upfront in the inital post.

Thanks Ierne. I was beginning to feel like quite the boob.
 
 
Ierne
19:23 / 02.01.02
An important thing to remember with covens/groups is that they require lots of interaction & communication. This can be tough enough to do in the flesh(!), so doing it online – with people in different timezones – will no doubt be a delightful challenge. Not having to be physically present in a particular place (except in front of the computer) makes it very e-z to slack off, much more so than if there's a HP right in front of you rubbing a raven feather under your nose.

That being said, I wish the MOBsters all the best in their new endeavor.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
19:35 / 02.01.02
It was a bit pompous to think that I would have instant recognition.No problem Lothar - as always,deepest respect to you.

One thing I wish to address- From reading the posts here, I have the feeling that people somehow think that my intention is to somehow dismantle barbelith magick and start an elitist group.

Not at all.

As said before,all I crave is focous for all of us. I see a group of incedibly gifted people here who, though I may not have seen them in action, theoretically everyone knows something of a magical nature/teaching this is what appeals to me.

Lothar,you hit the nail on the head back on the fictionsuit thread when you said I was assembling my entire cell/posse here in barbelith.True. It took me forever to get them involved and to finally see what i was talking about.Barbelith is a magical act...drawing together some of the greatest magical thinkers I have ever encountered.I do not wish to be limited to my cell members and hope to work with a large group of like minded individuals.

Is that wrong??

It's taken me this many years towork towards this idea and attempt to make it happen here.

Oh...and I am far from a novice.

I hope we will make a go of this.Sorry to fall behind.I'm going to spend the next couple of hours reviewing the topic and answering best I can.

Thanks to the playa for answering Lother's questions.That's the spirit.
 
 
Seth
04:42 / 03.01.02
Hey, y'all. My confession is that I assumed along much the same lines as Lothar (it didn't help that TKID is the title of a book that one of my best friends on Lith is working on). I was under the impression that the Magick forum may have been crashed by someone looking to prove a point (very glad that's not the case). Apologies.

Nice to see you, Dead King. I like the cut of your new suit. Now all you need is a zombie army...
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
05:05 / 03.01.02
Thanks Expressionless.

I feel rather folish with that whole Karma Police thing.

Too much Radiohead before bedtime, I guess.

What I was trying to say is- The world seemingly is falling apart...(please, don't take this as hokey...) and I feel that with our combined strengths and talents, a small group has a small chance to make a small difference in an ever shrinking world.

I also apologize for not being "me" at the beginning of the post.I stripped and that was what I was trying to show (rex=king...blah blah blah) Others followed suit (May and Playa) with the idea of stripping off garments just as with a real initiation.

(I do believe it is not necessary to provide our "real" names...May?)

Again,I'm not trying to lure anyone into anything untoward.I want an opportunity to work closer with those I admire and respect on this board.I don't care who you are,we could all be the same person arguing with our various selves on this board.A victim of MPD with time and a laptop...who knows.

Nonetheless...we are all equals,and I have no desire to be a "leader",only to participate in something that could be fantastic.
 
 
Bear
06:31 / 03.01.02
wow i missed all this, I promised myself that I was going to concentrate on my magick more this year so I'll be hear alot more (hey come back !!) -

anyway I can't really join your group due to membership in other groups but I wish you all luck in this

the only concern I have is that I'd like to help out in some of the things you get up to on here and I just hope that the magick on here wont become exclusive the the members of your group - this has probably been covered already but its earlier
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:14 / 03.01.02
Just wanted to say: Nice one, May, very nice one... instead of getting bogged down in the details you beetled off and cooked up something for real... hope to get involved when I feel I have summat to offer.
 
 
Papess
14:12 / 03.01.02
Thank you for your compliments MC, Lothar and others. Details are important but they are best left to the group to decide for themselves what they want. I don't feel it is right for me to tell them. I am waiting for the group to gel and tell me what to do. I will do it (ahh, within the context of group policy and personal boundry ). I really want to work with some fine magicians as TKID has pointed out. It would be my honour.
As far as auxillary members go, Iam cool with that. There is always a need for helpful people who know what we are trying to achieve. Again though I don't want to dictate and will I wait till the dedicated group has formed and come to their own conclusions. Thank you for the offer Lothar! I am sure we could make good use of a person such as yourself.
TKID, too bad about the misunderstanding. I thought you were making reference to Elvis hehe. I now appreciate the metaphor you were trying to relate,Rex. This is a great idea if it will fly.
So now I ask again who would like an invitation? No money down and don't pay till the Battle of Armeggedeon.(joke..joke, really that is some warped humour I have......"fucking dandelion-eaters", hhahahaha Oh god! that was a good one Lothar, hahhahahahahaha...LMAO)

~May Tricks

[ 03-01-2002: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Papess
14:18 / 03.01.02
oops!

[ 03-01-2002: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
17:48 / 03.01.02
I'm continuing my questions etc. here because I think that people may be waiting for more info before they commit to anything.

If it's inappropriate to continue to talk details here let me know and I'll bring it on over to the M.O.B. site.

Anyway, on with the show. I think there is the possibility of a credibility and trust issue popping up around the use of fictionsuits.

quote: May wrote
Write an essay on your fictionsuit. Give the Order a presentation of it and the character you play. Even if the name is already a birth name you can still the character you would like to play. It might seem a little closer to home for those people though!


In which, while you probably didn't mean it this way, uses some interesting language. To a lot of us, we don't 'play characters' and we don't 'play' at magic. At the tender age of 33 I'm only interested in doing things that are worthwhile for myself and the things I believe in and I'm pretty sure that a lot of others feel the same.

If the order starts attracting people who want to have cool 'characters' to 'play' it's going to drive some of the more serious practitioners away.

In a related post...

quote: TKID wrote
(I do believe it is not necessary to provide our "real" names...May?)

In 'real world' groups you have the benefit of seeing and meeting the people you work with in the flesh. This provides a sense of being able to really suss out a person and give the appropriate amount of trust in return. Trust is essential to people working together.

Online, people don't have the benefit of physically interacting with someone so even *further* steps need to be taken to create such a trust.

If people are willing to magically work with people (which brings it's own vulnerabilities and dangers) why aren't you willing to drop ALL fictionsuits to the other members?

quote: TKID also wrote
Again,I'm not trying to lure anyone into anything untoward.I want an opportunity to work closer with those I admire and respect on this board.I don't care who you are,we could all be the same person arguing with our various selves on this board.A victim of MPD with time and a laptop...who knows.


That's kind of the point. Who wants to waste their time playing stupid games like this. To some extent I do care who people are. People tend to exagerate less when they have a certain amount of accountability. If someone claims to be a master of Goetic magic but they aren't willing to talk to me via email, phone, or meet in person, I'm going to wonder why. What do they have to hide?

which gets to a question that
quote: I wrote
in 'meatspace' it's fairly easy to weed out the wankers and the people who aren't dedicated and disciplined enough to work with a group (not to mention the complete 'fakes'). How do you propose to weed these people out on the board where a person's online persona can be completely full of shit when it comes to actually doing anything yet they can 'write a piece of fiction' as good as the best of them?


The 'essay' idea that May mentioned is kind of like my scenario above. I would be much more inclined to work with someone who says:

"My name is Bob Jones, but I'd prefer for you to call me Mondo Dog 2000. I'd experienced in sigilizing and hope to become more proficient in Hermetic magic in the next couple of years. The Mondo Dog 2000 persona is one that I hope will help me reach that goal."

than someone who says:

"I am Mondo Dog 2000 chaos magician and master Hermeticist."

One last 'Barbelith' related argument about making real names known.

In the Invisibles, the messiah figure of Jack Frost continually preferred to be called by his real name of 'Dane'. He thought the comic book code name idea to be silly. By the end of the series, King Mob after he proclaimed "The King is Dead" started going by his given name of 'Gideon'.

And in the final issue stated that he was ready to play with the big kids finally.

I think that, in the order, people should be willing to make their 'real' selves present with the option of requesting that people call them by different 'code names' after the info is given.

And if people are resistant to this, where is that fear coming from. Know thyself and then free yourself from that fear.

If you think the fear is truly founded then maybe you shouldn't put yourself in a vulnerable position by working with others in a magical setting.
 
 
Papess
19:59 / 03.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
[QB]I think that, in the order, people should be willing to make their 'real' selves present with the option of requesting that people call them by different 'code names' after the info is given.QB]

It is not up to any one person to decide what is good for the order. If the group wants legal names, fine. If they don't, that is fine too. I don't care either way. When they come together, they can decide. I am in no hurry.
Some of us have already tried a magickal group or are still in one. The growth and development of the group is an important process. The group on it's own will find out what does and doesn't work for them. Making mistakes is an important part of learning. I have been part of a magickal group before, an excellent one, and still after many years they still made mistakes and learned from them. It is a growing process and if I could answer all the questions I would have no need for magick or studies or anything. I am learning always and so will the group.

As for the "character" essay, well...that was an indulgence. It is not without it's merits though. When The_Player posted it i thought what a great way to put forth a vision of my ideal, perfected self. It is like a magickal spell for the individual to blossom into. I guess that wasn't clear. Perhaps a "Character WISH List" would be a better idea but as if you were already there.
Anyway my son is demanding my attention and I have to go.

~May Tricks
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:29 / 03.01.02
quote:Originally posted by May Tricks:


It is not up to any one person to decide what is good for the order. If the group wants legal names, fine. If they don't, that is fine too. I don't care either way. When they come together, they can decide. I am in no hurry.


But it is the responsibility of each potential member to contribute ideas and arguments for those ideas so that the order can actually form and then to respond to the ideas put forth by others.

Otherwise it turns into "what do you want to do?" "I dunno, what do you want to do?"

I've thrown out a suggestion and reasons for why I believe it's a good suggestion. If people agree or disagree then that's great LETS HEAR FROM YOU!

If nobody wants to show their 'real' selves that's fine: subject dropped. The order has chosen.

But this beginning stuff should be bounced around and decided relatively early on so that people know what is being asked of them by joining.

How can anyone join and be 'initiated' if no one has really expressed ideas in what the responsibilities of membership are going to be and what the nature of the initiation will be?

Maybe what you're saying is that, as I asked in my above post, we should take these discussions over to the M.O.B. site and see who shows up before really getting into any of this?
 
 
Papess
22:16 / 03.01.02
So maybe others have some suggestions to these questions. Lothar does have some valid points. What do others want from a magickal order? This way we can start to build toward it.

~May Tricks
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:20 / 06.01.02
I'm in. Never had any other fiction suits, but like the idea of being with some other people to do more magic this year.

And let's think big, like the Peace Mango.

I'm listening....
 
 
Seth
09:06 / 07.01.02
The problem with dropping fictionsuits is that no one knows whether or not you've actually done it. What would you have to do? Send a photocopied passport to the M.O.B. Central Office?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:20 / 07.01.02
Exactly the problem with this medium of communication. Also, your doubts are completely valid and shared by me as well as probably others. A perfect example of the 'trust' issue that I brought up.

My extreme 'solution' (one that a lot of people will probably hate) is that those who undergo 'initiation' be willing to communicate by voice with the other members.

While it doesn't 'prove' anything, I think that the closer you get to really 'meeting' someone, the more effort it will take to keep the fake persona up.

The people who are just fucking about will probably be pretty reluctant to go that extra step.

And yes, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, even on Barbelith in general. If anyone wants to give me a call, email me and I'll send you my phone number. Or if you don't trust that, give 'information' a call and ask for Lothar Tuppan is Moss Beach, California. They'll give you my number.

But if anyone's going to crank call me, at least make it interesting.
 
 
Naked Flame
09:20 / 07.01.02
All of this is why I suggested the cells idea. I like going with my own stuff and what happens on the board. As for RL magickal collaborations, for me it just sort of ...happens... but inevitably YMMV.

Cells. Small, tightly knit groups where everybody's had enough one-to-one communication to know each other's rhythms and chemistry. Little groups like that are best for maximum synergy/energy. As I said, my own group experiences have been less structured, but I know 100% that this is how it works with music, and music is more magickal than most of the magick I do. Think superteam, or [rocknrollband], rather than army, and you'll have something that works.

Of course, this may be happening already and I don't know about it. These groups would be pretty much as invisible as an organisation can get...
 
 
Seth
09:20 / 07.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
But if anyone's going to crank call me, at least make it interesting.

I was going to try that one where I play you your own disembodied voice down the phone line.

Another question - if this is happening off-board, what will you do about new members? This thread will get bumped off the first page of the Magick pretty soon. Will newcomers to Barbelith know of its existence?
 
 
Papess
13:07 / 07.01.02
Hello!
There are some really good questions being asked and some good ideas. I am going to give my ideas.
As far as multiple fictionsuits go. I am willing to give my home number to those who join. This is a good suggestion and I think it will work well with the small cell idea (see below). I think that would be helpful but I don't think it should be mandatory. Who knows what personal situations others might be in.
There is a chat room at the MOB site and we can have regular meet times there. I have found with msn communities, that I cannot log in as two users at once from one computer. Maybe some techno-wiz might be able to figure this out (or have two comps) but other friends I have are experiencing the same thing. It is a difficult endeavor to keep logging in and out . When we have a "mandatory schedualed chat" at the MOB site it will be more than obvious if someone is trying to dupe the group. I have a belief that all is revealled in time and so eventually, any infidels be exposed.
As far as small cell structure goes maybe we can incorporate that by creating small groups within MOB and those groups must have extra contact with each other..ie: phone numbers and addresses. So, we wouldn't have to give our numbers and home addresses out to everyone, just to our cell group. I don't know how to keep cohesion if the cells are all off doing their own thing. If we want to keep the integrity of MOB then we would have to remember that it can't function without everyone involved.
The question of new members is a tricky one. I think that when MOB reaches a certain number that the group should close for a while so those people can have a chance to work with a dedicated group without surprises. Maybe once a year, New Members will be enlisted by posting a thread about MOB at that time. This is the only way I can think of that doesn't cause chaos (no pun intended!). Those who know and really want to apply before those times can alway apply but their request will go to the whole group for consideration so they can decide if it is a good time or not. If we are in the middle of something, maybe a new member might get confused. It then would be best to wait for the Request for New Applicants and the request will be granted automatically then.
Anyway, these are my suggestions. Please tell me what you all think. I am an organizational freak and I have a vision of how this will all run smoothly and harmoniously however, I don't always think of everything but that is why I have you all to work with!

With Love,
~May Tricks

[ 07-01-2002: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:45 / 07.01.02
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:


I was going to try that one where I play you your own disembodied voice down the phone line.


Heh. I'd have to use my Adam Sandler voice: "Hello? WHO IS THIS? WHY DO YOU KEEP CALLING ME? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. LEAVE. ME. ALONE."

quote:
Another question - if this is happening off-board, what will you do about new members? This thread will get bumped off the first page of the Magick pretty soon. Will newcomers to Barbelith know of its existence?

I think May had some good ideas about this one. The only thing I would add would be that, after the initial foundations have been laid, a brief article for the Webzine be written as an introduction/notification about the group. That way, even if membership does close periodically, people will be aware of it's existence.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:50 / 07.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:

Cells. Small, tightly knit groups where everybody's had enough one-to-one communication to know each other's rhythms and chemistry. Little groups like that are best for maximum synergy/energy.


Good ideas. This will probably be the best way to structure things once there are enough members to warrant it.

quote:
Of course, this may be happening already and I don't know about it. These groups would be pretty much as invisible as an organisation can get...

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that most regular posters to The Magick have done at least some workings with other members.

In some ways that will always be the 'real' magickal order of Barbelith (at least in spirit if not in 'letter').
 
 
Seth
09:02 / 08.01.02
As far as growth and new members goes, I see no reason why the the cell model can't be taken to the logical conclusion of cells growing and dividing naturally. You may find that you end up with a whole bunch of cells forming, each with individual flavours, but perhaps being capable of collaborating for some large group workings.
 
 
Gus
06:51 / 10.01.02
I just want to say that I've been reading all of this with a lot of interest. I initially had some reservations very similar to Lothar's, but I've also been thinking about the advantages of finding a group of reliable, trustworthy people for some organized magickal workings. From where this thread has been heading, I think that the attitude here is pretty open and friendly, and the resulting order is likely to be pretty flexible in its approaches to magick (plus someone I trust told me I could trust May). So I plan on heading over there and seeing what I can contribute.

I don't have any other fiction suits, though, and this one is basically me (I don't like the idea of creating characters either). I don't mind telling my real name and a few things about me, or being called/ calling people (though inter-continental calls might stretch my budget a bit). How about pictures?

I think that as long as we keep in mind that the reasons for this order is to undertake actual group workings to bring about specific results, and that general discussion and theorizing about the various aspects of magick belong here instead, we can ensure that The Magick will still look alive and the MOB will not go the way of the Johnson Family.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
09:36 / 11.01.02
I have to take this oppourtunity to thank May. Never did I expect this to take off like it has and to happen so quickly...

...I hope I can keep up.

Feeling slightly overwhelmed,
The King Is Dead
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
19:04 / 17.01.02
The M.O.B. had it's first "official" meeting on sunday,basically a getting to know you experience was shared by all.This is just to push the topic back up to the top in hopes of enlisting more like minded magically inclined spirits to meet with us.
Thanks,
TKID
 
 
firecracker
05:16 / 18.01.02
i did not read the entire thread.

i say we use the power of logos, just like every one else. something like a motto that you can put on anything to let others know you are affiliated. and to let each other know who you are.
imagine youself in a spanish hostel, known for its "revolutionary" tendencies. imagine a slogan or symbol or tetragram on your rooms wall. now think of how simply upon seein this mark you have a sense of home, safety and kinship. what if this hostel just so happend to celebrate the wiccan wheel of the year? where would you spend a solstice night in spain? with your friends.
what if this hostel was a hotel, or a restaraunt, or a bookstore, or calander, or a book on herbal cures, or a yoga school, or a newsletter, or a summer youth camp. if we want to begin true diolouge we must disolve our fear and procrastination and reach out and say "HEY!THE REVOLUTION HAS COME." what if it had its own radio staion? no matter what you think, God is comming. it may be tomorrow it maybe at the end of the month it may be in the time of your children. you WILL hear trumpets and the earth Will split. we must come to terms, we are part of a (counter)culture. the things that are happening to us are not so "strange". do not think you are a crazy, or deficiant or in some way warped. ADHD is a lie. i say we take the air waves.
they feed on your procrastination. they want you dispersed and disasembled. who are "they". they are you. we must take responsibilty for reality. we must take responcibilty for this rhelm. we are here for a reson, we are evolution. they are like children, sheep. we are their sheperds. i will dare to say "aristocracy". i will dare to say "riot". i will dare to say "magick" and mean it.
WE ARE THE GIANTS OF THE EARTH.
i dare to say "Revolution!"

*i see you standing with me, like superheros. i see us marching. i see a rising up. i see us as an army, in a war of the cosmick kind. i see you alot like me, "the dangerous type."
 
 
firecracker
05:29 / 18.01.02
so,
my little upstarts, remind me, how do we go about "hakcing" reality?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:05 / 18.01.02
You should have read the entire thread. We've decided against reality hacking and we've taken up needlepoint.

Just kidding.

Actually, in addition to this thread and discussion, you should check out the MOB site that May made here. And if you're still interested at that point ask May to send you an invite to join.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
17:18 / 18.01.02
Carry the stitch...ow!!!
I pricked myself!!

Back to hacking reality for us eh??
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:21 / 18.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
We've decided against reality hacking and we've taken up needlepoint.

Who's to say that needlepoint can't be a tool for hacking reality?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:06 / 19.01.02
<blink..blink>

STOP GIVING OUR SECRETS AWAY! WE'RE TRYING TO STAY COVERT HERE!

Oh shit. Did I just yell that?

Fuck.

 
 
Papess
09:06 / 19.01.02
Yeah our real name is...
The Magickal Order of Needlepointers and Knitters(that is M.O.N.K)

My Grandma is our High Priestess

Oh! and hookers....ahh, don't forget the carpet hookers! and the Cross-stitchers!...that is our Dianic division of the order!(Or was that the Christian division? I can't tell them apart these days.)

~May Tricks
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
09:06 / 19.01.02
And to join you have to knit a sweater.

A REALITY sweater.
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:56 / 19.01.02
Hey. Maybe I just missed it, but what's the initiation?

Sorry I've not been around much this year yet. I've been dealing with some business stuff that's been draining all my attention and energy.

Checked out the site. "themobrules". That's funny.

Looking forward to joining.

Zoom.
 
 
Papess
11:35 / 20.01.02
Ahoy Captain!
The Initiation is as follows...

1.Upon entrance one must reveal all other fictionsuits used anywhere on Barbelith.

2.Link the group up to a Cyber-treasure, of your choice.

3.Write a magickal resume. It should include the reasons you would like to join the Order and your aspirations with it. Also some personal magickal goals.

~May Tricks
 
  

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