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A British Superman? John Byrne and Dick Van Dyke

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09:43 / 20.07.04

I never got a chance to read it but I noted in a local comic shop a picture of (I THINK) John Byrne's latest project "What if Superman had landed in England"

This fills me with dread. Byrne was born in Canada and brought up in the US I believe

I can only get a horrible sensation that this is destined to go down the Dick Van Dyke 'Britishness' of Mary Poppins

You know, cheesey American idea of what British lingo should sound like "evenin' guv'na" .....God save the Queen and all that nonsense

When are American writers and actors going to realise that only a tiny proportion of British citizens talk with cockney accents and even these hardly sound ANYTHING like the hackneyed US attempts. It is tantamount to me stating that every US citizen is a big fat burger eating Texan, with a gun sticking out of their strides

I can see this monstrosity even now. Byrne will include all the cheesey UK elements......police men with big moustaches ....red phone boxes .........the Queen (evil fucking fascist bitch....see we don't all like her!)

I for one can see this being a disaster. i haven't even read the reviews or write ups but I have so little faith in a US adaptation of anything UK related that I know that this is going to be dire. I can see it now, Byrne the hack will probaly write Luthor as as Moseley like ( british neo Nazi) character

And before anybody thinks I am just Anti Byrne, I was one of the very few people who enjoyed his run on Wonder Woman

I actually thought the merging of Ares and Mars at the Source wall was a very clever idea. Sadly my hopes for this proposed series/one off are less than stellar

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:52 / 20.07.04

Er... are you refering to True Brit, drawn by John Byrne but co-written by John Cleese, famous British comedian?

10:05 / 20.07.04

MAYBE SO

I admitted that I hadn't read the review

as for Cleese. Yes in his day he was funny, Fawlty Towers was great but a lot of the Python stuff was just shite, new and different in it's day but looking terribly dated today

Cleese is from a comparatively wealthy background and I would say that his other forays into media such as the film 'Clockwise ' are as far removed from mainstream British culture as anything Byrne might write

My argument against Byrne and to a lesser extent Cleese is that I can (and I am only imagining this , not having read it) see this being some hackneyed version of Britain, or I should say London because that is all that is ever depicted in any such working. Cleese has about as much idea about the intracacies and variances in British culture as Byrne. From a wealthy background, educated at Cambridge and having been a millionaire for at least thirty years, Cleese is hardly as qualified as Grant Morisson to comment on British life

Even with Cleese's involvement, I bet the cornball elements are all there

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:10 / 20.07.04

Dude, George Morrison is *Scottish*. How on Earth would he know how to write an English character?

Which makes about as much sense as your Cleese critique... what we can say is that Cleese tends to make a living these days by selling a very specific concept of Englishness to Americans.

10:11 / 20.07.04

What I meant by that is that Cleese has no idea about British life for 99.9% of the population

Morrison has lived the working class lifestyle and as such has an intrinsic understanding of the drives and problems that most of us face. Cleese has been part of the Establishment since the sixties when he starred with David Frost in "that was the Week that Was"

as such, he has a limited view of Britishness or more accurately, I would imagine (only my admittedly biased opinion) that his view is that of the top one percent in the higher earnings bracket and as such, more likely to fit into the Hooray Henry stereotype that Hollywood loves

Y'now the two types of British 'subject'

Upper class twit

or

Cockney wideboy

10:14 / 20.07.04

Heyyyyyy

Of course the Scots can write a good English character

just look at the similarities

we all drink too much, half of them hate the Queen (just like the English population) and we both have crap National football teams!

10:18 / 20.07.04

A lot of sweeping statements there, which, quite frankly sound absurd. Would any single writer be able to capture an authentic British setting in your eyes? Cleese is too rich (and possiblely too posh). You mention Grant Morrison, but he is both white and Scottish thus lies fundermentally outside of the experience of non-white Britons let alone Welsh English and Northern Irish Britons.

10:31 / 20.07.04

I admit my dislike of Cleese, besides FAWLTY Towers, I think he (and the Python Team) were vastly overrated. Maybe I am too young to have 'got it' and missed the revolutionary wave they may have brought in their wake but to me they were just rich kids who got where they were because of the old boy network at Cambridge. Other equally or more talented comedians may not have had the same opportunities and I still strongly believe it was their schooling as much as any inherent talent that got them their break

I fully admit my sweeping statements do get the better of me and my temper does make me arrogant on occassion. As for Morrison, I bet he could still write a better black, lesbian single mother from Birmingham, than Cleese ever could.

Also, seeing that the majority of the UK populace is white, I cannot see why writing a character as such would be a problem? My argument was not about race as much as what constitutes Britain today. YES there is black British culture.... Asian British Culture and all manner of race, colours, creeds, religions etc BUT this is not the issue, the issue is the depiction of this Superman is bound to be Hugh Grant meets James Bond

yet another stereotypical waste of time

I have no devout loyalty to Morrison and I would even say that characterisation is one of his weaknesses but
Morrison (imo) would be better placed to explore an interesting British take on a character and I would prefer this than yet another Hugh Grant sounding depiction of 'Englishness' that Cleese is likely to offer

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

10:40 / 20.07.04

Is this topic a joke?

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

10:44 / 20.07.04

Can we have a competition to see who can write the best black lesbian single mother from Birmingham?

Mine says "Ello sparrow."

10:46 / 20.07.04

YES there is black British culture.... Asian British Culture and all manner of race, colours, creeds, religions etc BUT this is not the issue, the issue is the depiction of this Superman is bound to be Hugh Grant meets James Bond

No, the issue is that you appear to be claiming some kind of primacy for your own view of Britishness over and above that of that of the too posh/wealthy/whathaveyou John Cleese, a comedian who you think overated.

My point is that your view and indeed every British persons view is AS subjective as that of Cleese.

As for Morrison's ability to write black characters convincingly, based on the singular example in his work that i can think of, Boy in the invisibles, his record appears far from convincing.

10:47 / 20.07.04

wasn't meant to be

I admit my tirades do go off on a tangent at times but the point I am trying to make is:

Why oh Why do we have to suffer this recurrent theme in US media of hackneyed 'Britishness'?

I cannot be the only one who finds it annoying. Just how many times can Alan Rickman be portrayed as a baddie in a US movie?

Why are we never shown to dislike the Queen when I would guess nearly 50% (predominantly in the North) of the population of the UK, cares less about the monarchy year on year ?

Why do we only ever see London? Okay it is our capital city but we do have other cities that are quite nice as well!

10:55 / 20.07.04

sorry that last reply was to Funky and only makes sense if you read it as such

As for my own bias ....yes fully admit it

I take issue with the Establishment grip on the media and the willingness of US media outlets to perpetuate this depiction/myth

It would be logistically impossible to write a character that included every facet of a culture but my point still stands WHY do we only ever get one depiction? And such a ridiculous depiction at that (again imo)

Admittedly, my preferences would be equally flawed and one sided but at least it would be a different depiction and flying in the face of fifty plus years of the same Hooray Henry Jolly Hockeysticks Stiff upper lip, God Save the Queen nonsense that Cleese/Byrne are likely to perpetuate

I admit my bias and the flaws in my argument but I still believe that Cleese/Byrne will make a piss poor job.....escapist and maybe enjoyable which might in itslef be the only criteria necessary......but I personally am so tired of this type of depiction

11:03 / 20.07.04

Why oh Why do we have to suffer this recurrent theme in US media of hackneyed 'Britishness'?

Because there's absolutely no compelling reason why the current world empire should bestir itself to 'understand' the finer points of the last world empire.

11:13 / 20.07.04

thankyou Ganesh

that makes sense. I could veer off into another VERY related tangent but I am afraid I seem to have alienated enough people for one day

11:21 / 20.07.04

It seems to me, Joe, that the very stiff-upper-lip-jolly-hockeysticks depiction of Britishness that you so hate is actually generally perpetrated by British films such as Love Actually or Notting Hill or stuff like that.

American stereotypes of Brits are that we have bad teeth, listen to Phil Collins and all live in London.

Maybe we should all calm down and come back to do this again when someone's actually read this comic.

11:23 / 20.07.04

point taken

my teeth aren't bad. a bit crooked but I have never had a filling and I'm 35

11:26 / 20.07.04

Certainly there is a case to be made for in increased plurality of portrayals of British life across all media, but I’m far from certain the a comic starring a British version of Superman, a title not renowned for showing a wide range of portrayals of life in its native America, is the best place to start…

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

11:28 / 20.07.04

The book is co-written by Cleese and Python Biographer Kim Howard Johnson.

Kim Howard Johnson has written over a hundred articles for Starlog and Comics Scene. He was the Marketing Director for Event Comics and wrote the Ash Files, edited the 22 Brides miniseries and did many other jobs for the company. He was also the Marketing Director for Moondog's Comics in Chicago. Besides working in comics he worked in radio, studied improv, was an award-winning newspaper writer, and is now working on a comic book with John Cleese for DC Comics

Byrne was born in the UK, but I believe moved to Canada when he was about 8 or so.

There was a bit in Previews that featured The Rutles, or something.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:29 / 20.07.04

Hang on - in your England 99.9% of the population of Britain are working class?

Fucking groovy. Can I live you in the mid-Industrial Revolution, also?

Now, you were trying to complain about American depictions of British culture. Unfortunately, you got sidetracked by trying to write John Cleese into your argument, despite him not being American, and looking silly. Care to work back?

Scrubb is on a downward spiral

11:42 / 20.07.04

So - I've read a few pages of this in last month's Previews, and it made my teeth itch.

Possible SPOILERS:

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.

.

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...It seems to be set in some idealised 1950's/60's jolly old middle England. Ma and Pa Kent are nice middle-aged middle-class tea-drinking couple (him with white moustache and buck-teeth, her with floral house-apron) in chintzified semi-detached somewhere in (presumably) Kent.

...the man himself gets his name after performing his first acts of heroism, and is congratulated by everyone afterwards as "Super!" "Super!" "That was jolly super!" and "What a SUPER man!". DO YOU SEE?

...and the man himself is called Colin. Mr Colin Kent.

Admittedly this was only the first few pages; it might go absolutely tits-up with the class struggle and cockerny accents and terrorism and suchlike, but...well. At the moment my teeth are still itching.

12:15 / 20.07.04

given that there are any number of english characters in US tv dramas these days (there must be some kind of funding regulation that requires at least one principal actor to be british), this argument about american perceptions of the english seems somewhat redundant. besides, this bile directed towards cleese is based on vast assumptions about his character and whether the comic turns out to be something you like or not, please wait until the wretched thing is published before you go mouthing off.

but it works the other way too - of all the american actors shoe-horned into various UK films and dramas to attract US funding, many of them have been stereotypes - brash, loud, uninhibited.

and if you think we get it bad, you obviously haven't seen kangaroo jack...

18:08 / 20.07.04

No I freely admit my 'post' socialist bias against Cleese (for me besides Fawlty Towers and the occassional Python sketch, I have little respect for him as an 'artiste/writer')

I sincerely hope that this comic/series does not disappoint(I am so unaware of how this might transpire that I do not know whether it is a one shot or a mini series)

Sadly, from experience....my hopes I believe are bound to be dashed and I still believe wholeheartedly that one or more pages of this comic will portray a slightly overweight, 'moustachioed' English 'Bobby'

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!

18:21 / 20.07.04

Aren't we forgetting that this is a Superman comic, so it's bound to be shite whatever?

18:33 / 20.07.04

Truth Justice and the Tooth rotting Decay

20:06 / 20.07.04

I just hope he has a handlebar mustache and wears one of those "bobbie" police helmets....

01:14 / 21.07.04

Now if Colin had landed in rural England...
(flash of heat vision) ZAP(yelp)FWOOSH!
"Oh my god! Spot's spontaneously combusted!"
"Him were worrying moi sheep."

06:40 / 21.07.04

at least it would be interesting.

GET ORF MOI LAND!!!!!!!! Colin Kent is Super Farmer Palmer (VIZ)

THAT AIN'T NO CROP CIRCLE....THAT'S WHERE COLIN'S SPACESHIP LANDED

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:51 / 21.07.04

Yes, your hilarious send-up of rural England is definitely funnier than John Cleese and in no way involves mocking a group of people based in part on class!

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:07 / 21.07.04

Ah, but Joetheneophyte is clearly a member of the farming community. After all, if he were not he would not be competent to comment on their experience, as the upper middle class John Cleese is unequipped to write about the experience of ordinary British people.

So SHUT UP YOU SHUT UP SHUT UP

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

11:07 / 21.07.04

It's a Viz reference, You bumbling twat. "Farmer Palmer".

So Byrne is from the UK, yes? Would this raise the possibility his uncanny resemblence to mass murderer Dr. Harold Shipman is more than coincidence?

Ugh. Can't imagine how bad the art is going to be on this. I hate Byrne's style. They should have given this to Moore with Bolland, or maybe Jim Balike (was that the guy who drew Skizz for 2000ad?) on art duties. Moore has a pretty decent grasp of Britian from what I've read of him (see Skizz book 1).

Will not be buying this.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:12 / 21.07.04

Yes, Radiator, we all knew it was a Viz reference from the inclusion of the word 'Viz' in brackets. Does that automatically make Joetheneophyte a really funny, really good class warrior?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:25 / 21.07.04

The artist on Skizz was Jim Baikie.

And Alan Moore would almost certainly write a better comic about Superman in England than John Cleese, but that might be related to his decades of experience in comics, has ability as a writer of comics and indeed his experience of writing Superman - that is, he would also be likely to write a better comic about Superman in England than Peter Duncan or Ben Raab. I'm not sure that is *just* about his ability to write about being unemployed in Birmingham.

Haus of Mystery

12:13 / 21.07.04

It doesn't seem like Cleese is really writing this though - he's being credited as the 'concept' guy. His name's just going to be the selling point (I know this is pointing out the obvious). There's no reason that a humorous British Superman story set in an English idyll of the past couldn't be done well - British comics have a far stronger tradition of humour comics than superheroes after all. I just don't think that this is going to be it.

12:17 / 21.07.04

I'm in no way shape or form qualified to write anything comics related. Sadly my imagination is not good enough to allow me to take on such a role

The original point of this post was to vent my hope that this True Brit book did not fall into the tired old Brit stereotype. Would I prefer it to be about a rural character....maybe if it avoided the pitfalls and stereotyping of Old London Town and Her Majesty

Ahh but then we would have the farming stereotype, you quite rightly point out

Yes, equally annoying but not quite as tired and overused as the usual Tea and Crumpets drivel that passed for 'Britishness'.
I am afraid that my doubts about Cleese offering anything alternative maybe unfair but I cannot see him raising this project above the level of mediocrity

I fully admit that anything I offer as an alternative is just my subjective and biased opinion and probably as stereotype ridden as the next person's but until I achieve Zen like objectivity....that is all I have........ my subjective opinion

I admit my critique of Cleese might seem unfair but in my opinion and that is all I ever stated, it is my opinion, (which presumably you would not object to me holding) he is overrated. The roots of my dislike might hark back to some class struggle throwback and resentment of the upper classes of society but whilst that might be partially true, I also sincerely believe that besides Fawlty Towers, little of his work has impressed me

That is my opinion and I am entitled to it

A truly creative writer would come up with some twist and some angle that none of us have thought of and then this work might have some artistic merit. In itself I am sure it will be an enjoyable if hackneyed read but just the fact that it has been mooted that he gets his name from crowds shouting "Super...super" does little to alleviate my concerns and expectations over this book

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