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Admiral Autobiographical facing off against Sergeant Science and Major Mystical!

 
 
Digital Hermes
23:27 / 19.07.04
This is intended to kick off a fiery debate regarding the (as I see it) two major camps of comics. The extremely confessing, personal, usually autobiographical comics of people like Joe Matt or Chester Brown, for example (but keeping in mind how much more then this there is).

In the other camp, the super-heroes, the action stories or cosmic/mystical explorations that generally rely on some knowledge of comics history, how they are read, and by whom.

Even boiling it down to these points neglects so many works, that I hope come up during the discussion. I find these two sides interesting, though, because they seem so clearly delineated, and the readers of each often have little interest in the other.

So, who's better? Seth, or Mark Millar? I don't mean for this to be a 'who's better' debate, but let's examine the differences here. And bring out the works that bridge between. (Alan Moore's FROM HELL, in my view. What about yours?)
 
 
bio k9
23:35 / 19.07.04
I like both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

I find that good vanilla ice cream is better than bad chocolate ice cream. And vice versa.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:50 / 20.07.04
You do realize that Chester Brown, Seth, and the rest of "alternative" comics is not entirely focused on autobiography, right?

Actually, no, I don't think you know that, and that's why this thread is destined to be deeply stupid.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
13:06 / 20.07.04
To be fair, he does say "usually autobiographical".

Bio k9 is the crazy one - he's talking about ice-cream in a comic thread! Bonkers!


But seriously, I agree they all have their place. The bad ones are important to allow talent to grow. Shame they sometimes are more prominent than the good ones though.

It tends to be the bad company owned ones that are more prominent than the bad indie books though, maybe this partly accounts for their bad rep?

As for comics that fall into both categories, an obvious one (especially for here) would be Invisibles, which takes some personal themes, and wraps them up in espionage/action clothes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:15 / 20.07.04
As for comics that fall into both categories, an obvious one (especially for here) would be Invisibles, which takes some personal themes, and wraps them up in espionage/action clothes.

Nah. By the taxonomy above, Invisibles is a superhero comic. Possibly it is an action comic, or a thriller comic. It isn't autobiography just because it contains some of the writer's preoccupations.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:38 / 20.07.04
This is intended to kick off a fiery debate regarding the (as I see it) two major camps of comics. The extremely confessing, personal, usually autobiographical comics of people like Joe Matt or Chester Brown, for example (but keeping in mind how much more then this there is).

I think Bio K9 has nailed it early - it's as easy to draw a distinction between *good* and *bad*, in a way, in the same way that one can like good thrillers and good romantic comedies, without believing that either genre is *essentially* superior. Having said which, superhero comix are the SuX0r.

Offhand, I'd probably identify a lot of comics that fit neither category. There are plenty of B&W comics about non-superhumans that are also not autobiographical, or at least not entirely autobiographical. For example, Adrian Tomine started out autobiographical, but what he produces now are recognisably short stories. Chyna Clugston-Major writes tings influenced not by the language of superhero comics but of manga (which I think is a vast elephant in the living room that isn't being mentioned, along with European bandes dessiné. Elisabeth Watashin's Charm School is again manga-tinged, and can't reallically be identified as autobiographical or superhero... then there's the entire Vertigo imprint...

So what are our axes here? Really, it's Marvel/DC/Image (colour, largely superhero, company-owned) against Fantagraphics/SLG/Oni Press etc (largely black and white, largely creator-owned, largely non-superhero), with uncomfortable areas like Dark Horse (largely colour, largely licensed corporate properties i.e neither creator nor company-owned, largely non-superhero) and Vertigo (largely colour, largely creator-owned, largely non-superhero). Then there's manga, which lest we forget is supposed to be outselling superhero comics *and* US independents, yes?
 
 
sleazenation
14:06 / 20.07.04
The status of manga as the great undiscussed is quite interestig in itself - is there much of a cross-over between readers of western and easternb style comic strips? - I'll start a new thread...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:39 / 20.07.04
Why start a new thread? Keep the existing one going, we can just rename it later if necessary.

I have an enormous bias against manga and anime, but it's not for a lack of trying. I've never seen any manga or anime that wasn't exceedingly dim and/or unattractive. It's an aesthetic that I just do not appreciate, but could if only the stories and characters were even slightly interesting to me. In terms of what gets popular in the US, it's all shitty video game crap and stuff for idiot teenagers as far as I can tell, much of which makes Rob Liefeld seem like a master storyteller.
 
 
sleazenation
14:55 / 20.07.04
I figured a new thread would let this largely unconstructive and ill conceived thread based on, at best, a false dichotomy fall by the wayside – but there may be some value in attempting to turn it from a sows ear to a silk purse…
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:10 / 20.07.04
Some of the most interesting threads we've ever had in this forum have come from ridiculous premises!
 
 
diz
15:22 / 20.07.04
I have an enormous bias against manga and anime, but it's not for a lack of trying. I've never seen any manga or anime that wasn't exceedingly dim and/or unattractive. It's an aesthetic that I just do not appreciate, but could if only the stories and characters were even slightly interesting to me. In terms of what gets popular in the US, it's all shitty video game crap and stuff for idiot teenagers as far as I can tell, much of which makes Rob Liefeld seem like a master storyteller.

well, i agree that a lot of anime that i've seen (even most of it) is total crap, but then again so is a lot of the stuff that comes out in Western comics. however, i've really enjoyed a lot of it and the best stuff i've seen is much more interesting than most Western comics.

most of the good anime that i've seen has basically been the big name stuff (Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Spirited Away, what little i've seen of Cowboy Bebop was good....), but more recently i've seen other stuff that i've liked like Tokyo Godfathers, FLCL, and Big O, a lot of which i only saw because it was on Adult Swim and all of which seemed reasonably intelligent and/or excitingly creative. virtually all of my exposure is to anime; i have very little experience with manga.

for me, the problem is sorting through all the crap to get to the good stuff without a good foothold to start with.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:32 / 20.07.04
most of the good anime that i've seen has basically been the big name stuff (Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Spirited Away, what little i've seen of Cowboy Bebop was good....)

See, I don't even think that stuff is very good. Spirited Away is undeniably beautiful, but I don't think it's a very interesting story. It's a definitely aesthetic for me - virtually all Japanese comics and animation that I've ever come in contact with seems really dim and juvenile to me. It's come to the point that I barely even want to put the effort in, because I've been burned so many times by this stuff. There's too many things in this world for me to get into, I don't think it's worth the effort to dig around for worthwhile manga/anime. It seems like a rather needle-in-haystack sort of thing right now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:49 / 20.07.04
Hmmm. Could it be that you just haven't really got a toolkit with which to evaluate manga? Whereas the precepts of both sides of the original absurd dichotomy are quite well-known, manga, to the Western reader, is presumably dropped into a contextual vaccuum. Certainly I wouldn't know the "rules" of manga - like super deformed to express embarrassment or shame... Then again, can one describe manga as a monolithic entity, like "superhero"? It tends to *seem* samey in presentation to me, but I may well be missing subtleties. There's also the issue of translation, I guess - unless you speak Japanese, you are at the mercy of translation - the translation of Akira, IIRC, was considered a bit ropey among the mangascenti...

(Incidentally, if we must talk about manga here, would it be possible to limit it to manga, rather than anime?)

Then we have the manga-inspired superhero/sci-fi stuff, like Sidekicks or Rumble Girl - Silky Warrior Tansie. Where does that fit in?
 
 
The Natural Way
15:50 / 20.07.04
Spirited Away, dumb and juvenile? Eh?

Well, kids like it, but, pleeease, there's so much subtlety, so much left unsaid, unexplained and unrationalised. So much balls out imagination, you can forget the plot (in fact the plot might be the least important thing in some ways). Oh, and the characters deviate completely from the usual good/bad bullshit. Everyone is sympathetic and, above all, complicated. Not only that, but there's real pathos, too. I just can't see where yr coming from. There's nothing dim about it. Much rather my kids saw that (or any Ghibli film, for that matter) than goddamn Spiderman movies.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:54 / 20.07.04
And you want joycore?

Gon.

I'll say it again:

GON.

GON!

And it's manga all the way.......

Sometimes, for a really intelligent poster, I think you run yr mouth off before you've looked very closely (see Buffy the Vampire Slayer).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:55 / 20.07.04
Dudes, it's a *movie*. There's a film, TV and theatre forum just over there. You can opine like your wuffly lives depended on it.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:57 / 20.07.04
I'm with Bio, BTW.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:59 / 20.07.04
It should probably be noted that I have a major semi-inexplicable bias against animation in general. I'm just not predisposed to liking any of it, which is kinda weird given how much I like comic books.

Could it be that you just haven't really got a toolkit with which to evaluate manga?

Sure, probably. I don't doubt that it mostly gets lost in translation, but there's just so little there in even the best stuff that I've seen (which is Spirited Away, far and away the most impressive bit of Japanese anime or manga that I've ever encountered) to engage me that I don't feel any incentive to aclimate myself to the interior logic of it all.

It certainly doesn't help that I associate manga and anime with people whom I do not like at all. (Not Japanese people, silly. Teenagers. I don't like teenagers.)
 
 
diz
16:13 / 20.07.04
See, I don't even think that stuff is very good. Spirited Away is undeniably beautiful, but I don't think it's a very interesting story.

*blinks* are you kidding?

i don't think i've ever seen a more lucid, haunting, and downright moving exploration of Buddhist ideas of karma, compassion, suffering, and reincarnation on film in my life. it's everything a fable should be: accessible to children, but not too dumb for adults, and profound without being overly didactic and condescending. it's also one of the first kids movies i've ever seen where the protagonist gets ahead by being responsible, respectful, mature, hardworking, and kind.

on top of all that, it's gorgeous.

it's a fucking masterpiece of moviemaking in general, much less Japanese animated moviemaking.

as far as the others go, Akira is just titanic. teenage angst blown up into Japanese monster movie scale with weird pop sci-fi goodness. it's like some kind of New Agey Carrie meets Godzilla on the set of Blade Runner. Ghost in the Shell is, i will admit, kind of basic cyberpunk stuff, but done well. Big O is, if nothing else, a very stylish Batman parody, with the strange juxtaposition of all this surreal quasi-PoMo babble about memory and identity with ludicrous giant robot battles.

and FLCL is just perfect. it's the most joycore thing in the world. it's being a teenager in all its bizarre glory, when nothing makes sense and the girl you're in love with might as well be an alien for all that she makes sense to you. it's odd and funny and heartbreaking and downright brilliant.

There's too many things in this world for me to get into, I don't think it's worth the effort to dig around for worthwhile manga/anime. It seems like a rather needle-in-haystack sort of thing right now.

i've had enough good experiences to convince me that it's worthwhile. presuming i go to Comic-Con i want to spend time talking to the people at the Tokyopop booth a lot this year to see if they can point me in the right direction.

Dudes, it's a *movie*. There's a film, TV and theatre forum just over there. You can opine like your wuffly lives depended on it.

in my (admittedly limited) experience, manga and anime seem a lot more interdependent than American comics and animation, and most manga fans are anime fans and vice versa.

maybe that's part of the experience that draws in more of the youth crowd. it's more of a truly multimedia thing, where the transitions between Shonen Jump and Toonami and cards and video games are more seamless, or at least they seem that way. i don't think kids growing up now tend to think in such rigid categories, and the fluidity of Japanese pop culture across media might appeal to them because of that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:20 / 20.07.04
On Flux not liking teenagers... Well, perhaps that's it - manga, or the kind of manga we get over here (or rather, over there - there isn't, I think, quite the same culture in the UK) is aimed at teenagers. As such, it may be perfectly sensible for a big grown-up fella not to be sold on it.

So how about American works taking thematic and stylistic elements from Manga, such as Sidekicks, Rumble Girl - Silky Warrior Tansie, Charm School - Magical Witch Bunny, Blue Monday, that kinda thing? I find these interesting hybrids, far more so than the stuff that gets called "American Manga", which seems to be primarily and sinply derivative.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:31 / 20.07.04
lucid, haunting, and downright moving exploration of Buddhist ideas of karma, compassion, suffering, and reincarnation

New Agey

And you can't see why I would be turned off to it? If you don't know me by now, you will never ever ever know me, ooooooh.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:40 / 20.07.04
without being overly didactic and condescending

I can see why it wouldn't appeal. But maybe we should talk about the comics.
 
 
diz
16:45 / 20.07.04
And you can't see why I would be turned off to it? If you don't know me by now, you will never ever ever know me, ooooooh.

OK, point taken. however, there's a difference between talking intelligently about a topic you're not interested in and being juvenile and such.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:52 / 20.07.04
Just to be very clear, I was never putting down Spirited Away at any point. I only said that the story didn't interest me.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:56 / 20.07.04
Yeah, that probably wasn't a very good way to hook Flux, Diz.

Having said that, I think Yr knee-jerk reaction to anything with the words religion, magic or mysticism on the cover is a little extreme, Matt. Remember: Spirited Away isn't Grant Morrison translating this stuff as 5D squids. It's based on japanese folklore and religion as understood *by japanese creators and japanese audiences*. A completely different thing.

You really need to watch more Ghibli (sp??) stuff and then make up yr mind, Flux.

Okay, that's enough. Sorry, haus.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:02 / 20.07.04
To be honest, the spiritual aspects of Spirited Away really wasn't what bored me. I just found the story a bit tedious. A lot of the time, I just zoned out and looked at the pretty visuals.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:42 / 20.07.04
Ok... so, actually, the act of turning pages is now too exhausting for Barbelith to handle? This is new and exciting.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:25 / 21.07.04
I understand your desire for meticulous order, but sometimes conversations ought to just follow their own rhythm and course. Migrating elsewhere often kills the momentum. It's not as though things went completely off topic. This is exactly why I think we should collapse all of the spectacle into one forum - the arts are more interdependent than this system we have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:08 / 21.07.04
Well, that's a very good and worthy point. Without wishing to offend, however, it might be worth considering that it is bad form to demand to talk about manga in-thread and then fail utterly to talk about manga. Since the thread started out as a discussion about a rather rough dichotomy between, in essence, indie and DC/Marvel/Image comics then went on to manga, and is now a discussion of why Studio Gibli is shit. Honestly, it seems that the need for people to express their opinions has once again conquered the desire to know anything very much about the subject being discussed. So far, I think, one actual comic has been mentioned - Gon - so, rather than not express an opinion, we have fallen back on expressing an opinion about something else that is a bit like it, in order to avoid not expressing an opinion at all. This is not telling us a lot about manga or about comics, just about *us*.

Sooo... how about:

So how about American works taking thematic and stylistic elements from Manga, such as Sidekicks, Rumble Girl - Silky Warrior Tansie, Charm School - Magical Witch Bunny, Blue Monday, that kinda thing? I find these interesting hybrids, far more so than the stuff that gets called "American Manga", which seems to be primarily and sinply derivative.

Any good.
 
 
Scrubb is on a downward spiral
14:06 / 21.07.04
But - which specific manga stylistic element are we talking about here?

There's the adorable girls (with occasional talking animal side-kick) and her mates, getting into all sort of scrapes and embarrassment and rrrrromance, with various cute boys (or girls) to blush over - in mangaland, titles like Chobits, Love Hina, Tokyo Mew Mew Mew etc; similar non-manga is (as Tannce said) Charm School, any of Jill Thompson's more recent, Chynna, and also (I think) a lot of Andi Watson's work.

Then there's the all-action FIGHT! ZWOOSH! CARS! Streetfighter / Initial D / GTO malarky, which I can't place in a non-manga context.Battle Royale and Akira kind of fits in here, but then has elements of creep-out unsettling, which leads into....

....Horror, as previously expanded on by MacGyver. Genuinely creepy, nasty, unsettling stuff which pisses on Vertigo - the Hino Horror series, Domu, Hell Baby, The Ring, Uzamaki and suchlike.

And then there's the fantastic, unreplicable GON.

And the storytelling epic of Lone Wolf and Cub and Nausicaa.

Amd the porn (always the porn).

This isn't just meant to be a big old list of titles; what I'm trying (badly) to say is that there are huge variations in manga styles, which then cross over again between the various families of romance/crime/samurai/weird shit/rudeness. It's not just a case of Marvel/DC versus The Other - I think it splits far more into specific catagories than that.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
17:44 / 21.07.04
I had initial reservations about Japanese comics, finding the 'house' style rather bland and samey. But then, I used to think that about American comic-art, having been weaned on the manic grotesqueries of 2000AD. I feel it's really a matter of giving things time and space. As I stated in Sleaze's topic I am drawn to more unsettling horrific manga, and find Japanese stuff to be far more disturbing than most American/equivalents. Whilst it sounds like Flux has read enough to make up his mind I find the use of words like 'juvenile' and 'dim' rather ignorant, writing off an entire cultural product based on pretty spurious reasoning.
 
 
Simplist
18:02 / 21.07.04
But - which specific manga stylistic element are we talking about here?

This points to that common criticism of manga by Western comic fans, namely that manga allegedly "all looks alike", ie. there are no significant variations among artists, etc. In fact I find this to be somewhatless true of "manga" (defined as "all imported Japanese comics") than it is of Western (specifically superhero, ie. 90+% of everything published here) comics.

Now of course I get that an unfamiliar collection of art styles might be difficult to distinguish clearly (particularly if you don't find the stories interesting enough to compel you to look at said art), but what's funny is that the people who make this criticism seem entirely to miss the fact that superhero art presents the same uniformity to the unfamiliar reader. For example, I lent my trade paperbacks of New X-Men to a "civilian" friend who'd liked the films and wanted to read some of the comics. Her verdict? The story was great, but she didn't really like "the art". Which artists didn't you like? I asked. Her reply: "There were different artists?"
 
 
sleazenation
23:30 / 21.07.04
As Simplist suggests, Manga is a broad multi-faceted medium (just as western comics are), but it has only been comparatively recently that we’ve seen so many different Manga translated into English but even this nothing compared to the variety of works that remain only available in Japanese.

It certainly seems that the prevalence of a bastardised pseudo-Manga aesthetic in US advertising and culture and a propensity to conflate Manga with Anime confuses many westerners as to just what Manga is, let alone the rich variety, in content, subject matter and style of Manga out their both in English and in Japanese.

Tetsuya Chiba’s Tommorow’s Joe, a Manga following the life and career of a prize fighter coming to the end of his career, would seem to offer different themes and a different aesthetic from what many westerners would label as typical Manga characteristics…
 
 
Digital Hermes
23:52 / 21.07.04
*wincing, expecting the slap of sarcasm that has descended through this thread like a torrential downpour*

Yipes.

I made the thread, logged off the net, and came back a few days later, and started reading. A few things I'd like to make clear. (This references things earlier in the thread, but bear with me, I'll bring it back to what is currently in discussion.)

Flux, I do have some inkling that the demarcation of either autobiographical or superhero minimizes an industry that offers a hell of a lot more then those two sorts of stories and creators. I was hoping the bombastic nature of the title would indicate, through parody, that there are more camps then this. I also think that those ARE two prominent areas in the industry, and they are easy to identify and talk about.

If at any point I implied that one was better, or more worth someone's time, then I apologize for that. I just like the idea of the debate.

The thread concept came from me seeing people (of BARBELITH) engaged in a debate over creators like Miller/Moore/Gaiman et al, essentially comparing them to Tomine/Speiglman/Seth et al. It had a prominent place in that thread, (New York Times Magazine Article About Comics) and I wanted to air it in it's own arena, because I found it interesting. The article itself focused more on that 'sort' of comic creator, though not limiting itself to only that, for those who haven't read the article or the thread) So my desire.

The manga direction this has taken is very interesting. I have a minimal knowledge of it, having seen some of the good, but without a guide, no way to find more. Unless my friends are lying, though, comics culture there is a place where my intended debate would be moot. There are as many comics as there are genres, including 'literary'. Why do they NOT debate it? As much as I say Speiglman and Moore stand next to each other very well, why do those outside of the manga culture see them as being so very far apart?
 
 
sleazenation
06:48 / 22.07.04
My guess is ignorance combined with a variety of misconceptions in the West as to what Manga is. It would seem that there are as many inaccurate assumptions about manga out there as there are about western comics. Ironically enough though, it seems that these assumptions are prevelent among fans of western comics - people who should know better considering the number of prejudices western comics have had to endure at home...

As for a decent guide to manga - Paul Gravett has just had his book Manga: 60 years of Japanese comics...
 
  
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