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Money troubles, and a blatant plea for help!

  
 
PhatMikey
13:24 / 13.07.04
I've had a horrific run of bad luck with money in the past few weeks. First, I was forced to quit my job, but then I found a way to earn lot's of money by placing bets on the foreign currency markets. Looking at historical figures assured me that I should be making thousands and thousands of pounds of tax free cash. Unfortunately, it seems the law of averages has been suspended, to make this last couple of weeks one record-breaking losing streak, costing me at least £3,500, when I'm already £35,000 in debt.

I also seem to be heamorraging money in all directions without even realising it, I've just discovered I'm way past my limit on a credit card, and my overdraft, and a payment just bounced. Not good.

Does anybody have any ideas on how to turn my money troubles around (short of robbing a bank)?

Also, if anyone wants to throw some good vibes my way, that'd be appreciated too.

Thanks,

Mike.
 
 
illmatic
13:43 / 13.07.04
If you're that heavily in debt, without a job or income, you should be looking at some serious debt management strategies before considering the mojo surely? ie. contacting all your creditors with notice of your situation etc. I'm sure there's stuff all other the Web detailing the necessary steps, as chronic credit problems are such a growth area. Hate to state the obvious.

You could support any new financial strategy you have with magick and enchantments for good luck but you've got to cover the bases first.
 
 
illmatic
13:50 / 13.07.04
To put it another way, if I knew a simple, foolproof strategy for getting rich without working, I'd be doing it. And, I'm ashamed to say, I wouldn't be telling any of you about it.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:21 / 13.07.04
Good vibes coming your way, Mikey.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:23 / 13.07.04
Assuming that you're already taking other practical steps to reduce your debt and manage your spending, there is a lot of folk-magic dealing with money (I'll skip the gambling stuff for now -- maybe once you're a little more in control of the situation?). First, it wouldn't hurt to find yourself some sassafrass root to carry in your pocket or wallet (root chips are fine, available at many healthfood/herbal shops) - it works to help you hold on to the money you already have. To bring in more money, you could try working with a lodestone (naturally magnetic iron ore, available from many spiritual shops and some "science" stores) - you'll need to do a little care and "feeding," let me know if you want details. They can be very effective, though. Personally, I carry a money-protecting mojo bag, formulated to draw money, but also to fend off overaggressive creditors and heal those money-hemorrhages we both know so well. I've had pretty good luck with it so far (I've only carried this one for a short while, but my previous one - now retired - worked great). If you're interested in going in this direction, I could tell you some good combinations (PM me).

Of course, to reiterate Illmatic's point, none of this is going to do you much good without taking direct, practical action to improve your situation. This kind of magic works best when given channels through which to flow.

Good luck!

~L
 
 
Chiropteran
16:27 / 13.07.04
Assuming that you're already taking other practical steps to reduce your debt and manage your spending, there is a lot of folk-magic dealing with money (I'll skip the gambling stuff for now -- maybe once you're a little more in control of the situation?). First, it wouldn't hurt to find yourself some sassafrass root to carry in your pocket or wallet (root chips are fine, available at many healthfood/herbal shops) - it works to help you hold on to the money you already have. To bring in more money, you could try working with a lodestone (naturally magnetic iron ore, available from many spiritual shops and some "science" stores) - you'll need to do a little care and "feeding," let me know if you want details. They can be very effective, though. Personally, I carry a money-protecting mojo bag, formulated to draw money, but also to fend off overaggressive creditors and heal those money-hemorrhages we both know so well. I've had pretty good luck with it so far (I've only carried this one for a short while, but my previous one - now retired - worked great). If you're interested in going in this direction, I could tell you some good combinations (PM me).

Of course, to reiterate Illmatic's point, none of this is going to do you much good without taking direct, practical action to improve your situation. This kind of magic works best when given channels through which to flow.

Good luck!

~L
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:53 / 13.07.04
Looking at historical figures assured me that I should be making thousands and thousands of pounds of tax free cash.

Dude, *think about it*. I very strongly suggest you steer clear of gambling until you have got yourself straightened out a bit.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
19:31 / 13.07.04
I am a gambler....I have studied the form of horses, watched people put tens of pounds in fruit machines .............and thought the law of averages must go my way with scratch cards

I am in debt and owe thousands of pounds

Maybe not as much as you but it is only the restrictive control and incessant feaqr I have of my partner discovering what a fuck up I am that stops me from getting worse in debt

Gambling is a mugs game.....I have lost about £20 today gambling so I am a hypocrite but it is easier to give advice than to act on it yourself. You have my best wishes and I sincerely hope that you get yourself out of that hole. I watched a young fella of my acquaintance lose 40 pound in a fruit machine yesterday.....it broke my heart as I have done similar numerous times and I could empathise with his pain

I even tried to get one of my servitors to act on his behalf to change his luck but he still lost so Magick is no guarantee (or it maybe i am a crap magician)

But as has been posted here, IF Magick was a foolproof money making idea........the Magicians on here wouldn't have to go to work and soon enough the power of Magickal money making would be winging it's way around the Internet


Whilst I am typing all this to you, it is quite cathartic, as I am in reality also talking to myself as I keep deluding myself that my Servitor is going to give me that 'one big win' that will solve my problems

Historically this is bollocks as even if I were to win big, I would probably continue gambling and two years down the line, I would probably be in the same place.

That said, I still hedge my bets and Sigils, Servitors and Narrative Magick have all been employed to attempt to get me out of my own financial hole. To date I am still waiting for positive results but I still have hope


Illmatic's advice seems flawless to me and I sincerely wish you well in all your future endeavours
 
 
FinderWolf
20:08 / 13.07.04
I would say stop gambling to both of you. Continuing to lose money even as you work to improve your financial situation (as Joe mentions) works against your intent, and might be evidence of your subconscious desire not to truly succeed and remain stuck in the hole for some reason known only to yourself.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:26 / 13.07.04
my opinion to become rich through magick give up chasing money and spend your time, reclaiming your time (your life) rather than chasing after money.

all i see money do in others lives is buy people into traps, and without the money to hold those traps and trappings up, ive seen alot of people fall apart.

concentrate on your own well being and not the balance of your bank account, rich men have bugger all money but plenty of wealth.

on another note, best of luck keeping yourself afloat, ever thought of getting to know mammon?
 
 
Chiropteran
01:54 / 14.07.04
wolfangel: Well said, but I think that there's an important difference between "getting rich" and "getting out of debt," and that the latter can be very important, assuming one wishes to remain connected to mainstream society (for some people, homelessness is a valid choice, but likely not for most). The two spring, I think, from very different impulses - one the drive to acquire and hoard possessions and status, the other from the drive for stability, and to eliminate sources of stress. (Of course there's a big grey area there, but I think the general point stands.)

I will second wolfangel's recommendation, though, and recommend that you [PhatMikey] look towards growth in the rest of your life at the same time that you try to stabilize your financial situation. Money (whether you've got it or not) can easily lead to obsession, and crushing debt can spur feelings of desperation and depression - I speak from experience. Find yourself that job (with some gravel root and salt in your pocket for the interview ), but also make use of your work-free status to do things you never allowed yourself time for when you were working.

Best of luck,

-L
 
 
illmatic
08:25 / 14.07.04
Joe: Why on Earth don't you try some stuff to make you stop gamblingg? It might not be the time for you to give up right now, and I'ms ure it's not easy, but it strikes me that this is going to undercut all your postive intentions in the finances dept. You seem aware of this in your posts, on some level.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:05 / 14.07.04
Hi Illmatic

I don't know. There is part of me that wants to recoup my losses....a silly idea I know but there is nothing rational about gambling addiction

It really is like having a split personality, I have on numerous occassions walked into a pub and been saying to myself "I am not going to gamble today" and at the same time ...I have been rummaging in my pocket for change to stick in the machines

Totally illogical and I have no explanation. It also comes down to greed. Even when gamblers win, we have this really weird outlook that our luck has changed and we are on a winning streak.

I have tried to make deals with the spirit of gambling (I went over the head of th spirit of fruit machines as that didn't work...well that is not entirely correct, for one whole month I totally lost the urge to gamble and then it came back with a vengance)

I have done some recent magickal work that I am waiting to bear fruition but I suspect that my greed and overriding wish (at whatever level) to recoup some losses will override any positive intentions

Crackers I agree but to date, it seems to override willpower

Was it Coue who said something like 'when the will and imagination are at odds, the will nearly always loses'

I don't know, I am probably living in denial but honestly, I have had the experience so many times where I intend NOT to gamble but at the same time my motor functions are carrying out the actions of looking for change to play a machine. It is bizarre and I know it might even be denial/justification of my own lack of willpower but it seems like I am split in two minds

Once that first pound has gone, then it is 80% probable that I will lose several more before the fear of girlfriend retribution takes over and I leave the machine alone
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:12 / 14.07.04
just laughing to myself at how ridiculous that reads


using NLP lingo the heirarchy of criteria is this

Pauline will kick my head in
!
I want to play that Machine
!
I'm not going to play that Machine





level 1 and 2 vie for supremacy....only very occassionally does level three at the bottom win out

Sorry, I know this all sounds bullshit and probably is but I am laughing at myself as I type this
 
 
illmatic
09:53 / 14.07.04
I've never read anything on the psychoogy of addictive gambling (though the books must be out there) but it strikes me that urge to recoup losses must be a key factor, which on analysis does not serve any logical purpose, but is one of the lies the addiction tells to you to justify itself and keep going. Same as we fib to ourselves about our reasons for smoking etc.

Think about it - recovery of losses - in the long term, if you actually give up NOW, in five years time, you will have saved yourself an enormous amount of money, possibly equivalent to the amount that you have blown. I daresay though if you apply this logic to your arguement, you'll soon come up with a new justification, our addictions being inventive little beasties (ie smoking - having a fag "to prove you don't need one"). Possibly with gambling it'll be - "No, but I need to have WON by that amount! Got ahead! To pove it wasn't a waste of time!"

I also stuggle with compulsive behaviours from time to time. I think of these as behaviours as routines that we've done so often that become wired in, ingrained. And then some part of ourselves supplies the energy/libidinal force (I hate to use the word subsconscious here, it doesn't seem entirely accurate) to keep our behaviour running along these grooves, much akin to the experience I've had of hypnosis. I think these behaviours are more powerful if they are built around a somatic core ie. the pleasure of nicotine, food, drugs etc.

The best way I've found to deal with it is to try and remain conscious of what's happening, relax and observe the urges as they rise and fade - what thoughts justify them? What emotions occur? What bodily sensations arise? I observe these and try and remain seperate from them - they're not me -and remember that the urge will pass. This "not me" thing is why it's easy to talk or thing of these behaviours as spirits or demons - and they can only possess us when we're not conscious of them. It's a pity I can't ever seem to remember this when I get past my fourth pint if there's a box of fags on the table, but there you go.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
10:18 / 14.07.04
Yeah same here

I can be as strong as anything, then about 3-4 pints in I think "I'll just try one pound"

talking of hypnosis there is a good book called Mind Body Therapy by Ernest Rossi and Dr David Cheek that deals with State Dependant Learning

they reckon that at certain stressful times , our brains encode behaviours and loops and these are inaccessible to conscious intervention ...they use the occurrence of Post Traumatic Stress Ssyndrome as an example

They postulate that when something traumatic happens, the brain releases chemicals and hormones or more accurately the mind and body acting as one unit, is flooded with epinepherine that basically encodes behaviour

So in a nutshell (I am not doing this justice here) something bad happens, the brain is flooded with various substances and a little subroutine is created. The person might even be able to consciously recall events but they are not open to reframing or conscious intervention as they are chemically encoded

Something happens to remind the person of the initial traumatic incident and BOOMPHHHHH the person's brain is flooded with the same chemical 'key' that unlocks all the panicky feelings and initial trauma

(as a sideline, Rossi and Cheek assert that they can reach these areas via Ideo Motor questioning and ergo reframe the initial traumatic event)


Now what has this to do with addiction?

Well I believe that you (Illmatic) have hit the nail on the head. I strongly suspect (this is just a theory) that as you state, we addicts , of whatever ilk like the chemical high or reward we get from our act. With you it is nicotine, with me I probably revert to the first time myendorphins or whatever other bloody chemical gave me a high the first time I won some money

Playing the fruit machine I believe sends me into a loop, or subroutine and I am trying to get back not only the perceived losses but unconsciously, I want that HIGH from the prospect of potnentially winning.
I can consciously override this on occassion but this is where alcohol comes into play (though it must be noted that it is more complex than that as I have lost money stone cold sober)

So I go into pub. I sit there for 3-4 pints and then either

a: My willpower is weakened as the alcohol removes some of my rational sense

b: The State Dependant nature of brain chemistry takes me back in time (ie Alcohol unlocks the earlier memories of winning and the high that accompanies Free money)

Or even a mixture of the two

this might all be bollocks...it is idle theorising on my part but I still think that there is a State Dependant part of my brain .....a subroutine of addiction that can often override common sense

Alcohol probably facilitates the slipping into this subroutine and let's be honest pubs are full of the bastard machines so the temptation is there

The easy answer would be to stop drinking as there are few times in my life where I have actually gone to an arcade to play. I have sat in pubs not drinking and still played the machines so the pub setting is a definate important factor

The sate dependant theory does ring true to me and does make me think that there is a chemical component to even this seemingly non somatic addiction

Hope this nonsense made sense to read even if you think the premise is crap
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:27 / 14.07.04
Send me £500 quid and I'll let you in on the secret of wealth magic.

Other than that, listen to Lepidopteran's advice on the hoodoo, and Illmatic's advice on engaging with some of the root causes of your problem.
 
 
illmatic
10:34 / 14.07.04
To be honest, I don't think that there's necessairily a need to talk about the "state dependent" thing. I haven't read the book so I don't want to be overly dismissive but I think addiction doesn't have to reach back to one key tramatic/rewarding moment - I think of my habits as more grooves worn in over long periods of time. Repition as much as anything else. As to the somatic thing, I think this explains in part why smoking is so powerful and so a tough one to wrestle with - I'm sure there are somatic components to your gambling, even subtle cues just like the feelings in your bdy before you do it, excitment while you're doing it, whatever.

Anyway, the important thing isn't why, it's how to stop it. Should proably C + P these into a new thread to stop going off topic any further.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
10:36 / 14.07.04
£500?


Can I send you an IOU? ....... toss a coin, double or
quits?

No I appreciate all the advice and the conversation.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
10:39 / 14.07.04
Yeah Illmatic you are probably right

More of conditioning than an Imprint experience

I agree I have hijacked this topic (a nasty habit of mine, not intentional just my brain goes off on a tangent of selfishness and self interest)

thanks for the conversation to date, I have really enjoyed it.
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:44 / 14.07.04
Not to be facetious, but perhaps Joe and Mikey oughtta check out Gamblers Anonymous?

When the chips are down and you're in shitloads of debt, the last thing you want to do is fuck about with your cash.

My Aunt works in debt management for the Citizens Advice Bureau, I'd reccomend a chat with them before I embark on any venture that increases my debt. My Aunt deals with hardcore cases of people deeply in debt and about to lose their houses or file for bankruptcy, she says there's always something that can be done to help and you needn't suffer trying to sort it out alone.

As for the magickal perspective, I refer you to my comments in this thread. As Peter Carroll says- gambling is an expensive way of buying experiences that have nothing to do with increasing your wealth (I'm paraphrasing here, my copy of Liber Kaos is lent out to a friend).
 
 
illmatic
10:52 / 14.07.04
Please sticka your comments on addiction in this lovely new thread.

I second NG on the CAB thing, or whatever the US equivalent is - my mum has got some big debt problems at the mo, and the CAB have been a great help.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:32 / 15.07.04
>> but after 3-4 pints and then either

Drink less, dude. Why continually pull the trigger mechanism that starts the chain reaction that gets you in trouble?
 
 
PhatMikey
18:19 / 15.07.04
Thanks for all the replies guys. This seems to have turned into something of a "How do I cure my gambling addiction?" thread, I'm now going to try to turn it into a "How the hell do I get my life sorted out?" thread.

I should have been a bit clearer about the whole gambling thing, Joetheneophyte certainly has my sympathies, but addiction to gambling is not my problem (I know I'm going to sound like I'm in denial, but bare with me). Until a couple of weeks ago, I had only ever bought a couple of lottery tickets, I've never even played on a fruit machine. The whole betting thing is a simpler way of 'trading' on the foreign currency markets, withought actually setting up a brokerage account, and paying taxes, and all that nasty stuff.

You see, there is a company that publishes predictions about which way the price of the Dollar against the Yen is going to go in the next 30 mins, and it tends to be right more times than it's wrong. I examined the data from the last 3 months, and ran it through a spreadsheet, and figured out I could make at least £200 a day, 4 days a week. Seeing as regular 9 to 5 jobs are not really my thing, this was an ideal prospect, and it gave me the only real alternative to bankruptcy. I tested this out with a 'pretend money' account, and all went very well. Now, if the predictions are wrong 6 times in a row, I lose some serious cash, but historically this only happens once every 7-8 weeks, so profits should far outweigh losses.

As soon as I start playing with real money, there are FOUR 6 loss losing streaks in TWO weeks! I'm told this may have something to do with it being the end of the quarter, and all the forex brokers are trying to meet targets, messing up the markets. Whetever it is, I'm £3,500 down.

Last night I read what Wolfangel wrote about concentrating on my own well being, and I realised that I've been clearly suffering from depression this last couple of days. (For example, I stayed in bed until 4.30pm the other day). At first I thought this was due to losing lots of money, but it's now clear that my life generally sucks, and has sucked for quite some time.

Let's see: I am massively in debt. I have only a few friends, none of which live in the same city as me, and the few I have are mostly pretty crap friends. I have appallingly bad luck with women, I mean really really bad, I don't think I'm that minging, and I'm a really nice guy, but I've always joked that there's a Gypsy curse about me and the opposite sex. I'm living in a house with people I never speak to, I mean, if you came to visit, you'd think you were on some hidden camera show or something, we sometimes sit in the lounge for hours watching TV, and NOBODY SAYS A WORD! As I don't have a job, or any friends here, and I've finished my Masters degree now (almost), I practically never go out or do anything, the highlight of my week is going to Tesco (for groceries). It's now going to take me THREE YEARS to graduate from what is supposed to be a 1 year M.Sc. course, due to an administrative error, and my procrastination. I feel (and have always felt) that I've not really started living yet, like I'm waiting to start having a proper life. I think back to my first degree at university (I started that in 1995), and my time there was pretty crap compared to how it should have been, I had few friends, and didn't go out as much as students should do, and there was the very limited success with girls. I think the main reason I decided to do a M.Sc. was to try to live that part of my life over again, bur that hasn't panned out, I sometimes feel as though I've been robbed of that whole thing. Back to the procrastination, that's possibly the worst problem I have, it's the reason I did so badly in college, it's the reason I'm still here. I just keep putting everything off till later, and I hate doing it, but I can't help myself.

So, you see guys, it sucks to be me. Sorry about the self-indulgent whining there, but once I'd opened the floodgates, I couldn't stop.

Part of why I'm so in debt is the hours I've spend in hypnotherapy (two different kinds), and all the self-help books I buy, but never read.

This is all probably why I've started visiting Barbelith, to try magick as a last resort. I've created lots of sigils to try to sort my life out, but due to the procrastination, I still have a big stack of 'witchy looking glyphs' in front of me waiting for 'charging' after more than a month.

Anyway if anybody's still reading this, thanks for listening. Any comments, suggestions, advice? If anybody is magickally skilled and has some spare time/energy, and chance you could send some help my way?

Thanks guys,

Mike.
 
 
Magister Lewdi
21:38 / 15.07.04
Can't help ya make any money, but here's a little 'spell' to help you stop losing it to credit card creditors, if you're willing to enter chapel perilous and hold your ground against them. Feel free to attach any sigels you may have created to the 'spell,' when you mail it to your money pals. Just type up the 'spell,' and change the appropriate lines to reflect your situation. Send it to them with their "bill," upon which you should write "Refused for cause without dishonor, as per UCC 3-501" with your autograph and date." Be sure to use a Certified Mail green return postcard so you can hafe proof of service. If they send you something other than what you have demanded, write back and tell them their response was 'non-responsive' and give them thirty more days to produce what they must, by law (read that law at the URL included in the 'spell') give you. After that, send them a Notice of Default.

Be sure to change the appropriate lines and delete the stuff in [square brackets].

Don't forget to add a sigel or two for "effect!" Good luck!

- - - Begin Magick Spell - - -

Certified Mail # ____________________


December 14, 2000 A.D. [change date]

MONICA VAMPIRESTEIN AND [change to your tormentor]
NATIONAL KKKAPITALSUCKING SYSTEMS [change to their company]
666 BEASTLY ROAD, SUITE 23 [and their address
GEHENNA, HELL 23666


To the above-named parties,

NOTICE AND DEMAND

Page of 1 of 1

Enclosed please find a presentment, which I received from you by mail. It was unsigned. I am returning it refused for cause without dishonor, under Ohio Revised Code section 1303.61 (B) (3). This is equivalent to the Uniform Commercial Code section 3-501. [Change Ohio reference to reflect the "code" in your state; look it up here: Use this link to find where your State adapted UCC 3-501 ]
Surely you are familiar with the law -- If not, please have a look before you communicate with me again.

The main reason I am returning your presentment is that I have doubts about the validity of this alleged "debt."

Accordingly, I now DEMAND that within 30 days of your receipt of this NOTICE that you provide me with a copy of the instrument that bears my bona fide signature that makes me liable for the amount you are claiming. Upon such showing, I shall gladly remit any funds lawfully owed. However, if you do not comply with the above lawful demand, it shall be presumed that the alleged "debt" is not valid.

Please understand my position. I receive many presentments in the mail these days; some of these are fraudulent in nature. However, I only discharge the debts I lawfully incur.

Therefore, I am now giving you legal NOTICE that should you continue to attempt to collect from me on any non-bona fide debt, such action shall constitute willful harassment on your part, and I shall proceed against you personally, and against your agency in court, using the law to extract the maximum amount allowed. Also, be advised that if you use the US Mail in perpetration of certain acts, you may be in violation of sections 1341 & 1342 of title 18 of the United States Code. These carry jail time.

Further, should you or any person tamper with my credit rating based upon the instant or other alleged debt, and said debt is non-bona fide, you will be making yourself, and the corporation for which you are an employee, liable for even more damages.

The old adage "ignorance of the law is no excuse" still holds true. None of the judges I know regard ignorance very highly. If you are unfamiliar with the law regarding commercial paper, may I suggest one of the several fine law libraries in the Big City area? [Change to your area, or nearest Big City]. A law library is a pretty good place to learn about subjects such as the UCC and civil procedure.

You have now been served NOTICE.



Your Name [place your autograph above]
c/o: 1234 Your Street
Your Town, Your State, Zip [if you dig Zip]


- - - End of Magick - - -
 
 
PhatMikey
22:12 / 15.07.04
Thanks Magister Lewdi,

Unfortunately, I live in England, I doubt this would work over here.

Any suggestions about how to stop the rest of my life sucking, please post them.

Thanks,

Mike.
 
 
Tamayyurt
03:58 / 16.07.04
I'd also, suggest giving GEK a try. Ze'll do anything for something sweet.

GEK's gotten me out of a lot of financial situations that could've easily turned ungly. So for that, thanks, Gek.
 
 
Tamayyurt
04:01 / 16.07.04
Nevermind, just noticed you've already asked GEK for help.
 
  
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