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Philippine government acquieses to kidnappers' demands

 
 
Ray Fawkes
02:36 / 13.07.04
The Philippine government has publicly stated that they will withdraw troops from Iraq in accordance with the demands of the "Khaled Bin Al-Walid Squadrons", who kidnapped a 46 year-old Filipino.

I can't help but feel that this kind of buckling only makes things worse - it legitemizes abduction and assault of civilian targets as a negotiation tactic. Not only that, but it tends to diminish the apparent effectiveness of democratic protest. There have been ongoing demonstrations in the Philippines demanding the withdrawal of troops - but the government only seems to be reacting now.

What do you think?
 
 
Jub
07:06 / 13.07.04
Didn't the Spanish do something similar, and then caveat it with "when the UN are involved" or some such?
 
 
sleazenation
08:36 / 13.07.04
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the Phillipines planning to withdraw its contingent anyway?.

If so it would seem that the Phillipines might just be speeding up an existing policy to save lives into the bargain. Is this any better?
 
 
w1rebaby
12:28 / 13.07.04
Er, pardon?

MANILA : The Philippines denied Tuesday it was planning an early withdrawal of troops from Iraq to save the life of a kidnapped Filipino truck driver as the deadline for his execution passed.

A senior Philippine official said the timetable for the pullout of the small contingent remained unchanged, despite a suggestion by Deputy Foreign Secretary Rafael Seguis late Monday that the process could be speeded up.


Doesn't look like they are "knuckling under".
 
 
Ray Fawkes
03:43 / 14.07.04
Original story

Well, it's pretty hard to say what, exactly, is happening when one government official says that they're pulling out as early as possible to save the hostage and another one denies it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:16 / 14.07.04
Hmmm. I think the short answer is that it's best to find out exactly what people are planning to do before accusing them of giving in to or encouraging terrorism - see the discussion on the Spanish elections here. Right now the newsflow is confused.

On the question of *whether* an early withdrawal would be a bad thing... well, it would probably encourage the militant factions within Iraq to continue to kidnap foreign workers. But they are going to do that *anyway*. If it has a diplomatic effect, then so much the better, but this is not as far as I can tell the primary objective; the point is that foreign workers are a soft target, and that it shows that the Coalition of the Whizbang are not able to protect foreign workers in Iraq. The idea of anyone actually acquiescing to their demands must have caught them entirely on the hop.

Bear in mind also the condition of the Filipino government. They have troops committed in a country of no strategic importance, in a deeply unpopular campaign. If their citizens start being wiped out *as well*, it seems to me that will have a potential impact on their reelectability. From their point of view, they have nothing much to lose by saying that they will be withdrawing their troops, since they are going to be withdrawing their troops anyway.

Finally, and from our wait and see department, the Philippines have so far given no indication as far as I know that they will be leaving before the August 20 due date... that strikes me as a question that needs answering before we start talking about buckling...
 
 
sleazenation
09:30 / 14.07.04
Well, it looks like the Phillipines ARE going to withdraw early...

But Governments DO negotiate with terrorists all the time - There is a case to be made for the virtue of negotiating with terrorists over and above the public relations necessity of having to be seen to do *something* - As shambling as it is, would the peace process in Northern Ireland ever have come about without some kind of negotiations going on between the UK government and Irish Republican terrorist factions first?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:48 / 14.07.04
< offtopic >

Aaah, but they didn't deal with the terrorists, the IRA, they deal with Sinn Fein, a 'legitimate political party' that, once the Government were willing to talk to them, stopped being refered to as the political wing of the IRA, though that is what they were.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
14:07 / 14.07.04
On the question of *whether* an early withdrawal would be a bad thing... well, it would probably encourage the militant factions within Iraq to continue to kidnap foreign workers. But they are going to do that *anyway*. If it has a diplomatic effect, then so much the better, but this is not as far as I can tell the primary objective;

I think the "they're going to happen no matter what, so we may as well save a life or two while we can" approach is brutally shortsighted, don't you? If the abductions happen and they are seen to produce desirable results for the abductors, don't you agree that they're likely to happen much more often? Doesn't it seem logical?

The capture and murder of civilians should not be seen as a viable diplomatic negotiation tactic, should it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:50 / 14.07.04
Tell you what, Ghost - why not pop over and have a read of what I wrote, eh?

The abductions will continue to happen. Their aim is to destroy confidence in the ability of the forces governing Iraq to protect foreigners. It doesn't matter whether the Philippines withdraw their 51 troops a little early or not - the kidnappers will carry on abducting, and carry on killing. Doesn't have any impact whatsoever. Because, and I don't know if you've missed this, they don't need any encouragement.

In that light, what *exactly* is the problem here? That the US will now feel it has to follow the Philippines' example? Is your unhappiness practical or simply moral?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
16:24 / 14.07.04
Haus, I'm aware of your point. It seems a little specific though - I'm asking: does the Filipino government's response legitemize criminal acts as a negotiation tactic? Should consideration of that possibility be applied to their response?

You're saying that in this specific case, it doesn't matter. I think you're wrong in that, but even if we were to assume that you were right, it still doesn't address the question. Giving in to the demands (or appearing to give in to the demands) does seem to diminish the value of peaceful protest while enhancing the value of violent attack, does it not?

Why don't I put it this way: do you think that what's happening is likely to discourage further acts of violence? More or less likely than refusing to accede to the demands?

I think this is both a practical issue and a moral one. Practically speaking, I think a long-term view with regards to cost in lives is a more intelligent approach - if capitulation or the appearance of capitulation encourages this behavior, is it therefore unwise? Is it possible to prove that it doesn't encourage the behavior (or, as you claim, has no effect whatsoever)? Morally speaking, isn't this exactly the kind of situation we should be very careful about, seeing as it may have a direct bearing on the behavior of one or more sides of this conflict in the future? The escalation of violence in conjunction with the escalation of argument (i.e. the more intensely one wishes to make a point, the more outrageously they act) is a distinct possibility here, is it not?
 
 
grant
16:42 / 14.07.04
Would it help if we switched political polarities for a second and thought of it in terms of the old Iran-Contra scandal? That was the main problem, politically, if I remember right - the "we don't deal with hostage-takers...uhh, unless we can sell them guns and then give the money to rebels of a different cause" thing.

I do think Haus points up, not that directly, one of the big problems with kidnappers -- in that, if you don't deal with them and they follow through with the grisly execution, morale drops back home. I suspect this usually translates first into a flash of righteous anger (dangerous for kidnappers), followed by a willingness to get the hell out (what the kidnappers generally want), then followed by a dull, long-term enmity (thinking of suicide bombers and Palestine/Israel).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:49 / 14.07.04
You're saying that in this specific case, it doesn't matter. I think you're wrong in that, but even if we were to assume that you were right, it still doesn't address the question. Giving in to the demands (or appearing to give in to the demands) does seem to diminish the value of peaceful protest while enhancing the value of violent attack, does it not?

This statement assumes that there is a direct connection between anti-war protestors and Iraqi militants - that the anti-war protestors, if they continue to find their rallies ignored, will resolve instead to kidnap people, and likewise that if the Iraqi militants are only shown that kidnapping people does not work as a negotiation tactic, they will start printing banners instead. Neither of these, I believe, is the case.

So, the question:

do you think that what's happening is likely to discourage further acts of violence? More or less likely than refusing to accede to the demands?

Is missing the point. People are not going to think "Oh, damn it. The US didn't wthdraw from Iraq. Looks like this hostage-taking thing is a busted flush. We'd better write to our MPs, instead. But sternly." That is not how this process functions. As such, your practical argument is, I fear, rather impractical. Is it generally a good principle to give hostage-takers what they want? No. However, it goes on all the time - arms for hostages in Iran, the IRA, the discussions to release Terry Whaite, hostage-takers on board planes being given food and water, and so on. Is it wise to continue dialogue with hostage-takers for as long as possible, in the hope of finding and rescuing your national? Well, maybe. There is no evidence to state that this is not what is going on.

As for the *moral* question... well, you're assuming that there is a purely moral response. I suspect there isn't. Given that troops from the Coalition of the Whupass are picking people up, taking them to remote locations, torturing and threatening them... It's not the firmest foundation on which to base a moral argument. If you mean "bad actions should not be rewarded", then well and good, but to assume that this is a place where that maxim can be cleanly applied by one group to another... was the phrase "brutally shortsighted" used earlier?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
17:30 / 14.07.04
This statement assumes that there is a direct connection between anti-war protestors and Iraqi militants - that the anti-war protestors, if they continue to find their rallies ignored, will resolve instead to kidnap people, and likewise that if the Iraqi militants are only shown that kidnapping people does not work as a negotiation tactic, they will start printing banners instead.

It does no such thing. It states, simply, that the capitulation to demands diminishes the value of the one and enhances the value of the other. No connection between anti-war protestors and Iraqi militants is stated whatsoever, nor is it implied. It may well have been inferred but that's a problem on your end. The statement is meant only to suggest that it will be disheartening to those who choose peaceful protest as their means to achieve goals, while encouraging those with violent methodology.

People are not going to think "Oh, damn it. The US didn't wthdraw from Iraq. Looks like this hostage-taking thing is a busted flush. We'd better write to our MPs, instead. But sternly."

Once again, I think you're making a connection that I never suggested. I think there are better ways to discourage violent protest than capitulation - that's all I'm saying here.

Is it generally a good principle to give hostage-takers what they want? No. However, it goes on all the time [...] Is it wise to continue dialogue with hostage-takers for as long as possible, in the hope of finding and rescuing your national? Well, maybe. There is no evidence to state that this is not what is going on.

Except, perhaps, for the apparent lack of dialogue. I'll put it this way: there is no evidence to state that there is or has been any dialogue whatsoever in this case. If the action being taken on the part of the Filipino government is an attempt to create or prolong a dialogue, it may well be useful - and this is a point worth discussing, I think.

You admit, here, that it isn't generally a good idea to give hostage takers what they want. Let me ask you: why isn't it a good idea?

As for the *moral* question... well, you're assuming that there is a purely moral response. I suspect there isn't.

Alright. Is there a "better choice" response? Are you arguing that capitulation is the better moral choice? I need to be clear on this before I address that statement, I think.

Given that troops from the Coalition of the Whupass are picking people up, taking them to remote locations, torturing and threatening them... It's not the firmest foundation on which to base a moral argument.

Er...no such foundation is being used. I would argue that the violent activities you point out here are similar, if not identical, to the criminal activity that provoked the Filipino government's response. The only difference appears to be that the apparent demands of the American Military (i.e. a halt to terrorist activity) are not being acceded to.

If you mean "bad actions should not be rewarded", then well and good, but to assume that this is a place where that maxim can be cleanly applied by one group to another... was the phrase "brutally shortsighted" used earlier?

Why do you think I'm making that assumption?
 
 
w1rebaby
17:36 / 14.07.04
The statement is meant only to suggest that it will be disheartening to those who choose peaceful protest as their means to achieve goals, while encouraging those with violent methodology.

If, as you claim, you are making no connection between peaceful and violent protestors, why would it be disheartening to those who choose peaceful protest? (Apart from head-removal just being a bit depressing generally.) Why would it make any difference as to their choice of action?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
18:24 / 14.07.04
Because the Filipino goverment didn't step up the removal of their forces during the constant protests that have been going on in their country. They only pushed the schedule ahead when someone threatened to kill one of their citizens.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:07 / 14.07.04
Firstly, if the population of the Phillipines, who as far as I am aware have been protesting the war peacefully, had been either all for it or not made their protest known, the government would likely not have been interested in removing their forces in the first place, and would not have bothered stepping up the pace in this instance (if it turns out that that is what they are doing).

It's not the case that "the Filipino goverment didn't step up the removal of their forces during the constant protests that have been going on in their country" - yes they did, given that this is an acceleration, unless you assume that they would have removed them anyway whether people protested them or not. That would be a bit discouraging, but it's not really believable.

Secondly, you're still not explaining why peaceful protestors should be discouraged by the fact that violent protest works too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:26 / 14.07.04
I confess that I find it odd that the idea that peaceful protest is often ignored by governments, whereas violence sometimes has a greater effect, is some sort of unexpected, disembowelling blow that will shock protestors into despair. Possibly this needs a bit more thought?

Incidentally, the apparent progress of negotiations of some kind I inferred from the statements made by Roy Cimatu.

Now, to address why negotiating with hostage takers may not always be a good idea. Sometimes, it will give others the idea that by taking hostages they can make progress in getting their needs fulfilled. However, the Philippine force was already scheduled for withdrawal, and there is no clear indication that that withdrawal will complete even a month early. Try the same thing on a nation with a military commitment of more than 51 troops and it won't work. I don't imagine that this will be a first domino leading to a US withdrawal. It may be a PR coup for the kidnappers if they manage to force the Philippines to speed up their withdrawal a bit, but *it would be a PR coup if they beheaded the guy as well*. Once you've done the kidnapping, you have a win-win. You are, I would respectfully suggest, attempting to paint the Iraqi militants as essentially Kissingerian negotiators, who just happen to take hostages. That's not, I ween, the way it works.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
23:15 / 14.07.04
Sometimes, it will give others the idea that by taking hostages they can make progress in getting their needs fulfilled.

Agh. This is exactly what I've been saying from the start. To wit: it legitemizes abduction and assault of civilian targets as a negotiation tactic.

Shouldn't this notion be discouraged as much as possible? Shouldn't efforts be made to demonstrate that peaceful protest and reasoned negotiation are the only acceptable, viable ways to be taken seriously?

I'm not attempting to paint anybody as anything I'm trying to talk about the apparent legitemacy of hostage-taking and the effect this particular response has on that apparent legitmacy (as well as the apparent legitemacy of other avenues of protest/outcry/negotiation/etc).
 
 
Ray Fawkes
23:17 / 14.07.04
Secondly, you're still not explaining why peaceful protestors should be discouraged by the fact that violent protest works too.

Because violent protest seems so much more speedily effective.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:34 / 14.07.04
Because violent protest seems so much more speedily effective.

But that shouldn't make any difference, unless you are implying that non-violent protestors might see violent protest as a more effecive alternative and consider abandoning their non-violent ways, which you have explicitly said you are not.

Were neo-Nazis to have success in their campaign to have the Israeli govt pull out of the Occupied Territories - a goal of which I approve - by convincing people that Jews were evil - a means of which I do not approve - I would not be discouraged in my own particular method of protest, merely disgusted that anti-semitism was that significant a presence.

And that analogy assumes that peaceful protestors are, er, violently opposed to violent methods; many are not, though they might not be prepared to engage in them themselves (e.g. many Western commentators have expressed the opinion that contractors etc who've been killed got what was coming to them, or at least should have expected the possibility).
 
 
Ray Fawkes
03:20 / 15.07.04
I see your point, fridgemagnet. I wasn't seeing it like this:

non-violent protestors might see violent protest as a more effecive alternative and consider abandoning their non-violent ways

As much as this:

"non-violent protestors might see violent protest as a more effective alternative and consider abandoning their protest to their more effective counterparts"

But I do see that the one needn't really be compared with the other.

I still think it would be better, though, if those framing the responses to violent protest (such as the one addressed here) would take pains to encourage the non-violent protest as a more effective alternative - in word and deed.
 
  
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