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Book Club: The Aeneid

 
  

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Kit-Cat Club
13:21 / 12.07.04
So, several people have indicated that they might be interested in a joint reading of the Aeneid. This thread is to discuss how to go about it - when, which translations are good, etc. Any classicists among us, please do not hesitate to pour forth your wisdom - I think that it's not essential for everyone to have the same version (the Inferno thread, in which everyone had a different version, worked perfectly well), but recommendations would be nice.

Timing - I think a start in a couple of weeks, maybe? Say... July 26?
 
 
Sax
13:32 / 12.07.04
The Wordsworth World Classics version is only £3.99 on Amazon, but they're usually available at stores and are pretty cheap in real life, as well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:53 / 12.07.04
Hmmm.

The Wordsworth Classics of Modern Literature Aeneid is John Dryden's translation, which whilst very good fun might be a bit demanding, and is also not exactly the Aeneid... sample passage:

Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.
O Muse! the causes and the crimes relate;
What goddess was provok'd, and whence her hate;
For what offense the Queen of Heav'n began
To persecute so brave, so just a man;
Involv'd his anxious life in endless cares,
Expos'd to wants, and hurried into wars!


If everyone is up for 300 pages or so of that, we could go for it, but if you're not working from the Dryden you'd be reading a very different book...

The Wordsworth Classics translation by John Jackson is abridged, s I think we can happily discard that. There's a translation by Fitzegerald that I think Americans often go for, but I've always been slightly suspicious. Sample quote:

Roman, remember by your strength to rule
Earth’s peoples—for your arts are to be these:
To pacify, to impose the rule of law,
To spare the conquered, battle down the proud


If we want a verse translation I'd probably suggest either that or C. Day-Lewis, which also has the advantage of having a very good introduction by Jasper Griffin.

Prose translations - I've just finished Jackson Knight, which I enjoy and is my default translation of the Aeneid but might be a bit dry for general readers. I have heard that the David West prose translation, the most recent major translation, is very well spoken of - I could have a scout.

The other question is how familiar the clubsters are going to be with some of the earlier texts (the Iliad and the Odyssey, mainly), and also with the history of the time. We can probably muddle through on this as we go along. It *is* a pretty complex book sometimes, though - perhaps we should do it chapter by chapter, or would that slow things down too much?
 
 
Jester
19:34 / 12.07.04
I don't have anything particular to say about editions, etc, but I would love to be part of a joint readingything...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:12 / 13.07.04
Thank you very much for the summary, o mystery poster ('mystery poster') - excellent effort.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:44 / 13.07.04
The David West translation is available in Penguin Classics, FWIW, and is therefore easy to come by if it turns out to be good (the blurb on the back speaks very highly of it).

I am not keen on having separate threads for each chapter, because I think it will clog up the forum with lots of shortish threads; but it might be as well to agree to try and discuss a set chapter or chapters per week. The only problem with that might be if people speed ahead or find that they are going a bit more slowly. However, I am sure we will cope...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:35 / 13.07.04
The topic abstract was me - sorry. Couldn't resist the challenge.

I was thinking not of separate threads but of timescales, just as you say, but we can do that either way...

The David West is praised for its verisimillitude - if we're good with a prose one, that may be the way to go. Jackson Knight is also v. accurate, but as I say might be a bit dry... shall I pick up a copy of the West and have a look?
 
 
Cat Chant
10:10 / 13.07.04
David West is the one I use for convenience. It strikes a pretty good balance between readability/sense and accuracy. It glosses over some of the ambiguities which are important for my readings of the Aeneid, but I guess any translation is going to do that, and a verse translation is even more likely to do so than a prose one.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
13:03 / 13.07.04
I'd still be interested in reading this -and I actually will read it this time, as unlike the Inferno book club this does not coincide with exams.

Thanks everyone who's talked about translations as well, as left to my own devices I would certainly have bought the Wordsworth edition...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:13 / 19.07.04
Next week? David West OK?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:08 / 20.07.04
Good for me - I might pick up a copy of Griffin's textbook as well, which is IIRC rather good and might come in handy. I'll also be using the Oxford text of the Latin for reference, if anyone wants to know, just because it's the one I have handy.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:59 / 20.07.04
Works for me too -are we going chapter at a time, or is everyone just reading what they can when they can?
 
 
Sax
11:24 / 20.07.04
I'm in. So are we reading it a chapter at a time and discussing, then?
 
 
Cat Chant
14:28 / 20.07.04
David West OK?

Belatedly - I meant to say that, although I think David West's translation is very serviceable, my own feeling is that we don't all need to be working from the same translation. (That's just me being a Latin snob, though: I feel like an approximation to the Latin is more likely to crystallize for the non-Latin-readers if we're not working from identical translations - that is, if someone quotes a line that's not word-for-word the way it appears in someone else's translation, it might give us another perspective on what the poem's getting at.)

If anyone has enough Latin to wonder what the original text might be, Latin texts of the Aeneid are available online at Perseus (lots of annotation, online translation and dictionary tools, and with an option to go straight to the book/line you're looking for, but a bit clunky and often slow-loading or outright unavailable: there are mirror sites here and here) and at The Latin Library (just the text, but easier to load).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:49 / 20.07.04
I still reckon we should do a Barbelith Latin class, but probably not in the next week...

My Latin's not very good, but I'll do whetever I can to help out with poetics and meaning. I think we can do varying translations, but the verse ones might make it a bit harder...
 
 
passer
03:05 / 21.07.04
As a Latin teacher who is supposed to be working on my classes for next year, I'm available for any Latin questions and general discussion. (Can I count this toward summer work?) I'll tack on the caveat that I still have a hate on for Aeneas from my younger years and at best a hazy memory of books 6-12.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:29 / 21.07.04
I still have a hate on for Aeneas

Good - we should get some pretty balanced coverage from the classicists, then (I luuuurrrrve him, though that's partly because I get him a bit mixed up with Vergil and I LUUUUUUURRRRRVE Vergil).
 
 
The Strobe
10:06 / 21.07.04
I might still get involved with this, actually, and would be interested in the Latin-y bits as well. It's all about making the time, isn't it? I quite like Virgil, but I'm not so much a classicist as someone who once studied classical language.

I'm pretty sure there's a huge difference.
 
 
nedrichards is confused
11:04 / 21.07.04
Good lord I haven't read the Aeneid since GCSE Latin. I should probably try it again as the hate was, I'm sure, not Virgils fault.

ps: if you fancy doing a GCSE without actually knowing any of the language at all or donig any work try Latin! I did and got an E, pretty much solely due to an overextended English vocabulary and some close reading of the translation (thus the hating referred to above).

So yes, what's the translation to go for Haus? I quite fancy impressing fellow commuters with my classical skillz.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:23 / 22.07.04
I think we should start with the first part only (I forget whether it's called a chapter or a book, sorry) and see what happens. I will have a pop at it over the weekend and start on Monday. Hope that suits...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:10 / 26.07.04
OK... just let me order my thoughts...
 
 
Loomis
13:50 / 01.09.04
I thought I'd post here rather than dirtying up our nice shiny discussion thread:

So ... are we still going?! I was away all last week, and am ready to continue reading, but just thought I'd check who is actually still on board this leaky craft and where in the book we're officially up to.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:27 / 02.09.04
I think the thread is currently stalled at the end of Book 3 - largely because I just haven't had time/ the inclination to start talking about Book 4 yet. IRL, I'm on book 9 - very slow - got bogged down in the catalogue of Italian armies... but will try and kickstart it soon, as it has been nagging at me for ages...
 
 
Jack Vincennes
12:30 / 02.09.04
I, like the thread, have stopped at the end of Book 3. But the dissertation work is over as of Monday, so I will start again after that!
 
 
Loomis
14:57 / 02.09.04
Righty-ho. We can get cracking on book 4 next week then. So what happened to all the people who said they were going to join in and never did? No committment - that's what it is. No wonder the world's in a mess.
 
 
passer
20:27 / 03.09.04
I'll make excuses for myself at least. It turns out I'm not at all involved in reading any Vergil with my classes and had a whole new curriculum to learn. However, more importantly, I felt that the other posters had everything technical nicely covered and I therefore had little to add aside from "Arrgh, that pansy Aeneas!"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:31 / 19.04.05
I'm returning to this, as after a long sleep... the last Vergil reading was a bit scrappy, as we were all very busy. No doubt we are all _still_ very busy, but I was wondering if anyone wanted either to have another crack at the Aeneid, or - if that's a bit monolithic - maybe we could do an Eclogues club, or even a shorter classical poetry club?
 
 
matthew.
11:25 / 19.04.05
I hated the Aeneid. In fact, as I write this, I am waiting to go to a final exam at University so I can regurgitate all that I know about Aeneas and his pietas in a course called "History of Latin Literature". I really disliked the Aeneid because it was meandering, boring, and knowing the political context (Augustan National Programme) took away from the high adventure. Instead, why don't we read the Iliad, seeing as how most people never make it to the end.

In the academic world, they only care about Vergil's Books 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. At least with the Iliad, there's more books with more scholarly research.
 
 
sleazenation
11:36 / 19.04.05
Melyvyn Bragg's In Our Time is going to focus on The Aeneid this week and will be available as an mp3 podcast for a week from friday...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:18 / 19.04.05
The idea that knowing the history somehow detracts from the experience of reading the Aeneid is frankly kinky. Good luck in the exam, though.

Paleface and I worked out in the pub last week that the Aeneid is a lot like the Star Trek movies - odd numbers good, even numbers bad. There are, of course, problems with this - although important, Book 8 is a bit excruciating, and Book 9 (So gay. For death. With YOU) a bit cool, but it generally holds up.

The Iliad actually got a lot more attention when we read it - circumstantially, primarily, but also probably because it's way cool - but we can certainly ressurect that one.
 
 
matthew.
17:26 / 19.04.05
My logic, Haus, about knowing the political and social context, is going to be shaky, of course. Knowing that Vergil meant for most of the epic similes (for example, Neptune calming the riotous waves) to evoke Augustus seems to detract from the epic action. That's not to say I don't enjoy allegory. Lord of The Flies, anyone? I just think that the sweeping grand adventure falls a little flater when I find out Vergil had a specific political agenda. That being said, I still like the priviliged books, but those only make up a quarter of the poem.

Hey, if you want to read The Aeneid, go ahead.
But here's some classics you might prefer:
-Apuleius' The Golden Ass
-Petronius' Satyricon (although we only have a smidge of it)
-Catullus' love poetry
-Tacitus' Annals
-Lucan's Pharsalia
-Anything by Livy reads like an epic.

Anyway, I'll join an Aeneid book club just to know what other people think of it. Especially the final books, which, by the way, (TRIVIA ALERT!) Vergil thought was far superior than the first few books. (In other words, he liked his own Iliad to his own Odyssey)
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
20:40 / 19.04.05
We used the Vintage Classics edition, translated by Robert Fitzgerald in my Classical Myth course. My big gripe is that he capitalizes the first letter of every line, which I find interupts the flow of the story. I prefer the Fagles translation of The Iliad and The Odyssey for that exact reason, as Fagles doesn't put caps at the beginning of each line.

As a story, I found the Aeneid to be a bit on the boring side, especially compared with the Iliad. There were some nice scenes, like the Gods destroying Troy, and Allecto firing the various enemies of the Trojans to battle. Also, I enjoyed Camilla. I'm a DC Comics fan, and I applaud Camilla as one of the first "speedster" characters (next to Hermes, of course).
 
 
Jack Vincennes
21:07 / 19.04.05
No doubt we are all _still_ very busy, but I was wondering if anyone wanted either to have another crack at the Aeneid, or - if that's a bit monolithic - maybe we could do an Eclogues club, or even a shorter classical poetry club?

I am, amazingly, far less busy than I was this time last year, and would be happy to give it another shot (or try any of the above suggested) -the fact that I can only take one book on the train with me and have a far less interesting train journey might mean I'm more reliable with the reading, too. I hope, at least...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:43 / 19.04.05
just think that the sweeping grand adventure falls a little flater when I find out Vergil had a specific political agenda

Interesting. I rather felt that his position was a bit more complex than a specific political agenda, but possibly we have different ideas of what constitutes specificity.

Anyone fancy _not_ reading the Aeneid, per Mr. Montgomery's suggestion? I suggest the Eclogues, but a bit opf Catullus could work also. I think the Golden Ass would be better served in the Temple, the Satyricon... well, if anyone fancies it. The Annals and Livy I just don't think are going to grip anyone, if the Aeneid is threateningly dry, and unless anyone has a really good reason for the Pharsalia I don't quite see the argument for reading bad epic. Mind you, possibly I need to be educated in its virtues. First question would be whether we want bite-size nuggets of goodness or big hefty lumps of text.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:33 / 20.04.05
Incidentally, the book club thread that we abandoned due to stuff is here.
 
  

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