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Irreversible

 
 
PatrickMM
19:35 / 11.07.04
Looking on the board for discussion of the movie, I found this but couldn't find anything from people who'd actually seen the film, and I feel like this is a film with myriad things to discuss.

The film was technically absolutely amazing. I was wowed by the first shot, and after a couple of mintues, I was thinking, "There hasn't been a cut yet," then a couple of minutes later the same thing, and about ten minutes in, I realized there would be no cuts, in the traditional sense. I'd seen this sort of thing before, in some Michel Gondry videos, but never on the grand scale that this movie was. The long takes were all really interesting, and I feel the technique allowed him to do the extended rape scene without
it feeling like it was showing off. The scene in the Rectum was brutal, because of the extended buildup without cuts, the sound, and Hell-like images all combined to create one of the most uncomfortable sequences of all
time. I feel like this style of shooting must have been hell for the actors, doing the eight minute rape scene would have been brutal once, but if there's some kind of error, to do multiple takes, it could not have been
good.

The other thing that was technically astonishing was the way the camera moved. It was like nothing else I'd ever seen, just floating around, and rotating through space so smoothly. It was a completely unique style, very cool.

I wish I had gone in knowing less about the film, even knowing the fact that the film is about a rape ruins some of the first sequence. I would have loved to see it having no idea why Marcus and Pierre were hunting someone in
the first scene. But, it was still brutal, the fire extinguisher killing was some of the most "real" violence I've ever seen on film. That and the rape scene really drove home the unglamourous aspects of violence, and what it does to people.

The structure was critical to defining the movie, and I think really captured that feeling after a tragedy of wondering what you could have done differently. I'm sure Alex's boyfriend will always be haunted by the fact
that he let her go out alone, and so will Pierre. The structure conveyed that, and also showed the futility of revenge, by removing the vengeance from an emotional context.

However, it's far from a perfect movie. I feel like the characters exist solely to be manipulated, they don't see that real. It's more of an intellectual exercise than a character piece.

That said, I will defend the film against people who claim it's excessive, or on the borderline of pornography. The nine minute rape scene, with no cuts, really drives home the horrific nature of the act. You see the entire thing, and it's unrelenting. I also like the fact that it doesn't tell you what to focus on. It's not like a lingering closeup of her face is used to show the pain, it's just there, mundane and everyday. In theory, it sounds excessive, but in practice, the scene is crucial to make the audience understand what Marcus was going through earlier in the movie.

So, has anyone else seen it?
 
 
Fugazi
14:34 / 14.07.04
I think Irreversible is one of the most powerful films I have seen lately. A friend of mine said wonders about it, yet he alerted several times to the fact that it is not for everyone. I imagine people who look into cinema only for the simple satisfaction of a spiderman 2 movie (although I love spidey 2), will probably not "get" Irreversible. My friend said that I could regret seeing this film, considering its extreme violence and realism.

Irreversible IS art. The way it deals with the consequences of violence in our everyday life is simply incredible, and sometimes almost unbearable to watch, like the Rectum scene, beginning to end.
How one single day can begin with hope and love and end in tragedy and empty mindless violence is a point of the movie, and Irreversible never walks away from this objective. Gaspar Noe doesn't use violence in a meaningless way, though I imagine some of this films critics may like to think of it that way... The violence has a meaning to the story. And it is a good story.

I think when violence is used without purpose, just for the joy of entertaining a blood hungry audience....then it is probably crossing the line between art and excess that you speak of.
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:29 / 15.07.04
Hmmmmmmm. Trying to avoid threadrot here, but that whole "line between art and excess"...uhh...line gave me a bit of pause. Not in reference to Irreversible, where the general critical consensus is that the film, watchable or not, is "art;" that's not a point I'm interested in debating. But I do find the notion of "improperly" used violence in a film making that film cease to be "art." Some films may have loftier goals than others, and some films may just be better films than others, but is it really fair to say that Irreversible is art and that, say, the Guinea Pig series is not? Again, I'm comfortable with saying that one filmmaker has nobler artistic goals than another, and certainly I'm comfortable with saying that one filmmaker has made a better film than another, but this whole thing where high violence + social insignificance = carnography I'm not too cool with. Surely all art is art. It's just that, y'know, a lot of art is also shit.
 
 
PatrickMM
02:31 / 15.07.04
I agree with you, but the tagline was a response to what I was reading in the other thread. Stuff like this:

Max Hardcore versus Gaspar Noe? Aha, well at least Hardcore doesn't claim his films are art, does he? (or does he? He seems like the kind of Total Prick on Steroids who would make a QVQA movie and claim it was art...)
 
 
Fugazi
13:35 / 15.07.04
I believe Gaspar NoƩ has every right to claim that Irreversible is art, if not for the movie itself, then for the work involved!! Like Patrick MM said, it must have been terribly difficult for all the people involved, especially the actors, to make scenes like the rectum and the rape scene.
Yes, I agree that there is good art and bad art, like Grant Morrison said someday. But the whole thing of just exploring the audience's thirst for blood & sex, whatever, without any basic "excuse"... It just makes me feel uncomfortable. Perhaps it reminds me too much of Big Brother and other shite like that. It's just a personal opinion, but I don't see those things as bad art, just...bad. Mainly due to the fact that I think they are just a mean to please a particular need or thrill of those watching, nothing more. If 4 kids in college get a camera and make a lousy porn movie in 2 hours just for fuck's sake... is it really art? I have just seen a film called Thesis, by Alejandro Amenabar, about snuff movies, a bit like 8mm with Nicholas Cage, and I wonder "Is a fake snuff movie art?" (assuming there are no real snuff movies). Probably the answer varies with each one's view and conception of art.

I'm not a "horror movies hater", if you are wondering :P I really love seeing horror movies, and altough some of them have an extreme social insignificance and high violence, they are done with the basic purpouse of...telling a story! Bad art? Yeah, but art it is, I agree with you there. But I believe there is a line between excess and art, depending on the use of excess and the way it is presented.

P.S.: these are my first posts here at Barbelith...be gentle :P and forgive any grammar mistake, I'm just a portuguese dumb kid
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:57 / 15.07.04
I've still not seen Irreversible... it's in the sale now, and I've been tempted, but as yet I've not been in the right mood while buying cheap movies to want to watch something as uncomfortable as I hear it is. Though I intend to rectify that in the near future.

Again, I LOVE horror movies... but that's "cartoon" violence for the most part. A film like "Salo", for example, I found horribly disturbing (even though I have issues with Pasolini's updating of "120 Days..." to fascist Italy, purely because the "pillars of the community" characters are instantly redefined as bastards anyway, thus missing out the whole satire element imho...).

I think to dismiss a lot of populist moviemaking as not being "art" is a little unfair... as someone said above, a lot of art is shit.

I think intent counts for a lot- if the notional students wanna shoot a cheapo fuckflick just to get off on watching themselves on camera, then it's no more art than your holiday snaps. Likewise with a lot of bad (or even good) "exploitation movies"- if the intent was to make a good film, then it's art. Though it may well be bollocks. Something like "Evil Dead", for example, was done through a love of the medium and wanting to make a decent movie, and even though there was no "social comment" or any of that stuff, that to me (above and beyond the fact that it is a genius piece of film-making) makes it a work of art. Something like, say, "Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Next Generation", as far as I can see, was done to put bums on seats- no more, no less (from watching that piece of shit, no-one involved in its making actually gave a shit about what the finished celluloid would actually BE like...). Personally, I'd say that discounts it as art.

As I say, I've still not seen Irreversible, so if these comments are irrelevant, forgive me. But from what I've heard and read of it, 'tain't no seat-filling movie conceived by accountants. Which is the reason I intend to watch it.
 
 
PatrickMM
23:16 / 15.07.04
Yes, I agree that there is good art and bad art, like Grant Morrison said someday. But the whole thing of just exploring the audience's thirst for blood & sex, whatever, without any basic "excuse"... It just makes me feel uncomfortable.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Irreversible itself, or about movies in general, but I feel like Irreversible certainly had an excuse for exploring these things. The movie is largely dependent on audience reaction, but the conceit of the movie removes the audience's thirst for blood from the act of the murder. You see Marcus bashing the guy's head with a fire extinguister, and you, or at least I, are disgusted completely. However, looking at the rape scene, I understood what he was feeling at that moment, in a way that I didn't watching the film the first time.

So, what's the excuse? I think the movie is making a point about revenge. Killing La Tenia won't undo what happened to Alex, and attempting to kill him results in an innocent man dying, and the lives of all those involved being destroyed. That's the excuse for showing all the blood and violence, and I think it's perfectly valid.
 
 
Fugazi
00:07 / 16.07.04
Yeah, Patrick MM, I think we both agree in this point. Irreversible is very violent, in more than one way. Yet his use of violence is used in an interesting way: it is cause and consequence of the film, never a "cheap" thing, or something cool to look at, like in a zombie flick. Beginning in the cruel rape of the beautiful Monica Belluci and ending in the shocking (and ultimately pointless - there was actually no retribution) kill with the extinctor, we are presented with an actual portrait of violence, very disturbing, horrible.

Like I said before: The violence has a meaning to the story. But the story, with its peculiar narrative style which removes the motive for the murder of the "innocent man", proves to us that same violence is always a terrible thing. Sometimes it has a reason, hence the revenge angle, sometimes it hasn't. Don't know if anyone agrees, but Irreversible resembles sometimes a greek tragedy. The elements of the 'perfect woman', characters driven by vengeance, the Fate that "controls" every aspect of the story until its final(first in this case lol) climax in the destruction of innocent people.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:46 / 16.08.05
Apparently some people objected to the rape scene on the ground that it was exploitative. This seems just bizarre to me.

I tried to work out the image behind the strobing. I thought that it was an

*ENDING SPOILER*



ultrasound image. Did anyone else notice this?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:46 / 16.08.05
The pertinant bits from the other thread...

secret_goldfish 12:29 / 15.08.05
Extremely violent film, but I agree with Patrick's assessment in another thread that it's absolutely crucial to the story line. Hannah McGill called the movie a "challenge to apathetic, vapidly amoral cinematic shock tactics".

It's sinister from the moment the camera starts rolling, and it just gets more and more so. The empathetic bond is between viewer and onscreen victim is strong thoughout, so every kick and punch is difficult to watch. I saw the rape scene a second time to try and "come to terms with it" as a viewer, but noticed a background detail the second time round which made watching it even more upsetting.

Had been warned there was a twist somewhere, but would never have guessed what it was. The juxtaposition of the final image and the Beethoven was... well, if you've seen it, you might know the point I'm trying to make.

What did you think?


PatrickMM 22:04 / 15.08.05

With the detail, I'd guess you're referring to the person who walks in, sees what's going on, then just walks out, that is brutal. The thing that really struck me about the film on my second and third viewing is just how good the scenes after the rape are. Watching it the first time, I was so overwhelmed I couldn't really assess the second half, it seems to be just a really long cool down period, but once the shock of the beginning is less, it's easier to look at those scenes and see some great natural acting and a really sweet relationship. The camerawork in the party scene is absolutely phenomenal and I love the scene where Alex and Marcus are just going around their apartment, particularly the image of her kissing Marcus through the shower curtain.

And the other thing I saw was the double meaning of time destroys all. Watching it the first time, I saw it as something really pessimistic, that this happiness will be inevitably broken by the bad things that happen to us. But, think of it literally, time destroys all, so the only way to be happy is to step outside time, and just appreciate the good moments that we have. So, everyone may have terrible things happen to them eventually, but step out of time, and you see that at least they had some moments of happiness.

Time is the villain of this film, because it's what brings Alex to the moment where she is raped. But, what Noe does with the film's structure is take the viewer outside of time and allow us to see everything reconstructed instead of destroyed. He gives us a 4-D perspective over events, a perspective which is especially apparent when you've seen the film already.

I did a huge blog on the movie the last time I watched the film, which you can check out here, if you want to read more on the film.

Ms. Triplets 23:36 / 15.08.05

Beautiful essay, Patrick.

secret_goldfish 15:29 / 16.08.05

Pat - personally i view it as unremittingly pessimistic. Appreciate your viewpoint, though.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:46 / 04.11.05
Oh. My. Gawd.

Just saw this movie tonight, and it is absolutely the most difficult and powerful cinema I have ever seen.

Ouch. Can't even write anyting more at the moment.

Ouch. Head hurts.
 
 
Ria
22:43 / 04.11.05
I saw the rape scene a second time to try and "come to terms with it" as a viewer, but noticed a background detail the second time round which made watching it even more upsetting.

***HERE BE SPOILERS***

did a man stop, see the rape in progress, decide to do nothing and move quietly on?

****END OF SPOILERS***
 
 
FinderWolf
14:03 / 05.11.05
Yes - the guy is shown as far away in the background, and he does just that, as I recall.
 
 
Lysander Stark
09:53 / 07.11.05
This film is incredible. The beginning was so intense that, watching it with my girlfriend, we had (well, she had...!) to stop the first time and start again the next day. The hellish intensity of that club scene and the violence is suffocating in a way that I had not experienced in other cinema.

I like what other people said in this thread about this being a film in 4 D and a Greek tragedy. It is precisely the fact that we see the ending first and see the reverse spiral back to a wonderfully normal and happy little couple at the 'end' that lends the whole film such weight. The post-rape scenes are not wind-down, but are filled in and defined by what we have already seen-- what we know lurks around the corner. This ties in in part with what was being written in the Graham Greene thread across the way about The End of the Affair, where one story is told, but is transformed later by another angle's introduction, which not only provides more story, but adds an entire layer of meaning and profundity to the rest. In this way, the reverse format of Memento, by contrast, is almost glib-- it is satisfying, and a great film in its way, but is less profound in human terms, though of course profound in terms of the protagonist's character.

If the violence had not been there at the beginning, if we had not seen and experienced such an infernal vision of where these lives have ended up in such a short space of time and through such a gossamer-thin chain of tiny wrong turns, the film would never have succeeded in the gut-wrenching way that it does. As it is, the film is damning, pessimistic; ending as it does, we are given a greater sense of tragedy-- and of loss-- yet there is alongside this a troubling romantic and even optimistic edge.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:11 / 07.11.05
Something I din't get, actually (I watched the film without subtitles, and my French isn't that good)...PatrickMM says that they got the wrong guy in the Rectum Club...I didn't notice this...where is it revealed?

Must see it again with English subtitles, if I can stomach it.

Might have to wait a bit though. It really is very disturbing.
 
 
PatrickMM
17:17 / 07.11.05
PatrickMM says that they got the wrong guy in the Rectum Club...I didn't notice this...where is it revealed?

It's tough to tell from one viewing, but at the end of the club scene, they reach that room and are still asking for La Tenia, and it ends up being La Tenia himself who points to someone and says "He's La Tenia." So, he ends up getting beaten to death and at one point the camera moves over and you see La Tenia, the guy who actually raped her, standing off to the side, looking on.

Noticing that gives the whole thing even more thematic significance because after all this destructive stuff they do, it ends up being just another innocent person who gets killed, while the person actually responsible is still free.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:49 / 08.11.05
Jesus, that's so fucking horrible it actually makes the film even more unbearable than it already is.
 
 
Ria
17:32 / 08.11.05
I did not catch on to the fact that they killed the wrong man... it took me until fifteen minutes in at least until I started distinguishing one character from the other... it didn't matter to me either way whether they killed a rapist or a bystander. they ended a human life either way as well as destroying their own lives.
 
 
Krug
18:42 / 09.11.05
I can't speak french so I watched it with subtitles and dont think I coudl do with one more viewing for a few more years. But the futility of revenge demonstrated by getting "the wrong man" is a theme carried out in all of Gaspar Noe's films, Also see Carne and my favourite Seul Contre Tous (aka I Stand Alone).

The film seemed to be saying in the earliest scenes taht they were going to get the wrong man and when the fight at Rectum starts they dont even make sure which guy is La Tenia. It isn't until the rape scene it's confirmed they did in fact get the wrong man but I was expecting there to be a shemale for some reason until the rape scene.

What I absolutely loved was how in the final shot when the camera hovers above Monica Belluci, it starts spinning anticlockwise (time running backwards) and I think the film throws in the image was of "the baby."

The opening scene with the butcher from Carne and Seul Contre Tous is a treat and it's great how the camera falls away from the bathtub and lower down into the seedier streets where "they're stirring shit in the rectum again."

It's been a long time since I saw it the film opens and ends with "Le Temps Detruit Tout" (Time Destroys Everything) right?

Early in the year I heard about the new film he was making with Takashi Miike (not a director I like) called "Enter the Void." There seems to be no info on imdb does anyone know anything about that?
 
 
PatrickMM
02:51 / 10.11.05
The film ends with "Time Destroys All," I don't think it's at the beginning, but I could be wrong. I know the Butcher says something along those lines in his speech.

And on the Noe/Miike film, I haven't heard anything in a while either. There was one interview I read where he claimed that he'd been holding back on his first two films, in terms of violence and such, and would be going all out on this next one, but I'm not sure if that's possible.

And on the film in general, after seeing it three times, the two scenes I really love are the party and the scene with Alex/Marcus at the apartment. The party is technically phenomenal, it's a fifteen minute take that moves up and down the stairs and all through this space without cutting. The lack of cutting makes it feel like you're really there and that there really is a whole party going on, not just something where the camera is. And one of the funny things in this scene is how Marcus calls himself 'Vincent' first, and then quickly corrects it, because the actor said his own name by mistake, but didn't want to stop the take.

And then that last scene with Marcus and Alex hanging around the apartment is so beautiful and safe, and sad in light of what we know will happen. I love the song that's playing and the incredibly striking image of Marcus kissing Alex through the plastic curtain of the shower. The scene feels so real, and the moment when Alex finds out she's so pregnant is so conflicting because at that moment, it makes her so happy, but we know how quickly things will be destroyed.

These scenes are what separate the film from Memento, which used the backwards narrative more as a suspense device, the film was a puzzle and you had to piece things together, whereas here it's used as an emotional device, to affect your response to the story in a very specific way, while at the same time serving as a deconstruction of the revenge genre, and the expected pleasures we can get from those films.
 
 
Krug
05:16 / 10.11.05
I love backwards narrative, Martin Amis' Time's Arrow used it wonderfully. I'm always looking for films or books that employ it. Do you know any others (besides Memento)?

I'm a big fan of films like this that send the message that our lives are only inches away from hell and horrifying things can happen to anyone, anytime. I think Spoorloos was another film that demonstrated this superbly (and the book as well).

Try watching Memento "backwards." The emotional message of Memento doesn't get drowned out if you watch it the other way round. I'm interested in watching Irreversible with the narrative reversed to see what it says then.
 
 
Ria
21:37 / 11.11.05
would like to say, since it eluded my mind, that (with two possible exceptions*) I consider IRREVERSIBLE the only anti-violence fiction film I have ever seen.

* -- THE WAR GAME and THREADS, perhaps not strictly fiction films.
 
 
Krug
20:28 / 12.11.05
Incidentally I felt that La Haine, another Vincent Cassel film had a very strong anti-violence (And anti-hate) message.
 
  
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