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Spider-Man: What's good?

 
  

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Simplist
23:10 / 04.07.04
So I've seen the films, loved 'em, etc. and now I'm wanting to read some actual Spiderman comics. Thing is, I was never much of a Spidey fan (never much of a Marvel fan generally, truth be told), so I don't really have the slightest idea where to start. So what's good? And by "good" I mean "well-written", for the most part. Well-drawn would be cool too, but good art is less essential than good writing in my book.

Currently I'm leaning toward trying out Ultimate Spider-Man based on several good recommendations and the availability of this ludicrously good deal. Otherwise, I'm lost. Any standard Marvel Universe Spidey books anyone would like to recommend? Trade paperbacks preferred, but I might be willing to try an ongoing if it's well above average.
 
 
TroyJ15
03:06 / 05.07.04
dude, don't think about it. GET Ultimate Spider-Man it is easily the best Spider-Man anything in years.

If you want just general good Spider-Man stuff, I recommend (in trade form of course):

Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt (Psycho-drama/thriller starring Spider-Man and a villian who just can't take it anymore. Spidey wears the black costume and it's hardly introductory, better you familiarize yourself with Ultimate book and the character Kraven)

Spider-Man: Coming Home (goes wayward after the third tradepaperback, but the first 3 are pretty entertaining. Written by the creator of Babylon 5)

Essential Spider-Man (More than one volume as this collects the original Amazing Spider-Man run, but while cheesey in spots, is still surprisingly enttertaining. If you can't sink into this try the Marvel Age books, their kinda for younger readers adapting the older stories but they are still fun to read.)

Spider-Man Tangled Web (More than one in the series, but it's a cool look at how Spidey's life effcts others. various artist and writers. Sometimes the stories are hit or miss. But fun to read regardless.)

Spider-Man: Son of the Goblin (this one is not out yet, but it will be soon. It features stories specifically on Harry Osborn's fall into insanity and taking over his father's Green Goblin mantle)

I say go with Ultimate Spider-Man. It is very well-done. The book earns it's title as it has come to be the quentessential Spider-Man series. There is other good stuff, but unfortunately they are not in trade form. Hopefully Marvel will get on the ball.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:38 / 05.07.04
It's all about the Essential Spider-Man volumes. You can get most of Ditko's work in the first, and the next two show the change from Ditko's outsider Peter Parker to Romita's "romance comic" Peter Parker. It's off-the-cuff fun, and doesn't take itself seriously, even when it seems like it does.

The latest volume gets into the Gerry Conway stuff, and it just shocking how quickly the series tu7rns into a parody of itself.
 
 
CameronStewart
05:12 / 05.07.04
I agree with Solitaire - absolutely go for the old school Lee-Ditko or Lee-Romita stuff, especially if you enjoyed the movie. The original comics are the main source of inspiration for the movies and are closest in spirit. Some of it's a bit on the corny side, sure (these were, of course, back in the day when comics were being made to be goofy fun and entertaining for all ages), but on the whole they're some of the best superhero comics ever made. And Romita at the top of his game = definitive Spidey.

I absolutely cannot agree with Troy's recommendation of Kraven's Last Hunt. It's the worst kind of mid-80's "grim and gritty" dreck, in which it rains all the time, Spidey dresses in black, and every character has rambling overwritten Travis Bickle-style narrative captions. Avoid.
 
 
CameronStewart
05:16 / 05.07.04
Oh, and easily the best Spider-Man comics in recent times have been Darwyn Cooke and J. Bone's two issues of Tangled Web - "Open All Night" and "Twas The Night Before Christmas."
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
08:21 / 05.07.04
I've been enjoying most of Straczynski's run on Amazing Spider-Man. Not all, but most. I'd recommend it.
 
 
Lord Morgue
11:29 / 05.07.04
I liked "The Death of Jean DeWolf", y'know, when he fought the Sin-Eater? And that one issue, "When Cometh the Commuter", when he gets kicked off the roof of a bus he was riding on to chase a criminal (no pockets, no fare), and has to WALK through suburbia, with guys watering their lawns and dogs barking at him, because there's nothing to swing off... Fucking priceless.
 
 
Logos
11:54 / 05.07.04
Which TPB had the story where Aunt May finally finds out that Peter's Spider Man, and goes on a letter-writing campaign? That one's priceless too.
 
 
Axolotl
12:02 / 05.07.04
Those Cooke & Bone issues were great (they are both artists worth checking out in general imho). I also have to agree about the first 2 essential Spiderman TPB, which are in all sense of the word classic (though I wish there was a colour version available). As for the recent stuff Ultimate Spiderman is worth checking out, though it is variable in quality.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:39 / 05.07.04
The first four or five volumes of Essential Spider-Man is all you'll ever really need. Everything else from there on just cannibalizes that material, so you may as well stick with the source.
 
 
Eskay Doss
21:46 / 05.07.04
I loved "Kraven's Last Hunt"! Grim and gritty to be sure, perhaps a tad verbose, but still cool IMHO. Mike Zeck's art is great, the covers to the 6 issues were all very captivating, and there's never been a Spidey story like it. Kraven no longer played as a stupid lame-ass joke finally takes down Spidey and buries him alive!!! Right before Peter and MJ's honeymoon! It's dark and creepy and worth a look if you want something a little different and aren't into the cartoony stuff.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:18 / 05.07.04
Yes! That's exactly what Spider-Man is about! You should pick up Mark Millar's new book while you're at it, because Spidey gets beaten up and shot and Black Cat's breasts are like giant balloons! I've got nothing against people trying different things, but all that is just tiring and about as daring as a paddling pool.

Obviously, I second all the reccomendations for the Essential series, because they really are all you'll ever need. Unless, of course, you can't handle fun. But really, all those books are great value for money and the black and white art is lovely and crisp. I actually prefer it to the original colour, purely for the sheer craft it shows. And you don't have any lame "dark and gritty" villains like Venom... (please say no, Raimi).

To be honest the films have probably distilled everything nicely for you anyway. There's plenty of decent comics and storylines scattered around his history, but really I don't think there's anything so worthwhile as to actively seek it out/that wasn't done originally in the comics covered in the Essential books. The 90s cartoon is quite a lot of fun, for a few series.
 
 
Bed Head
00:00 / 06.07.04
Indeed, and indeed. Fluxy is so totally (ahem) On The Money with this: The first four or five volumes of Essential Spider-Man is all you'll ever really need. Everything else from there on just cannibalizes that material, so you may as well stick with the source.

...except I’d only bother with the first two. Being both a purist and a cheapskate, Ditko Spidey is the only damn Spidey there’s ever been. Pisses all over any film, ever. Man.

Although, come to think of it, Peter Bagge’s fantastic "Megalomaniacal Spider-Man" sits very nicely next to all that stuff. Especially if you’re interested in how the political beliefs of Ditko and Lee is the point of difference from which the opposing characters of Peter Parker and J Jonah Jameson then emerged. Or something like that. Obviously, Peter Bagge makes it funny.



Er, anyway: I do remember "Kraven’s Last Hunt", but as I recall, any spooky atmosphere was kinda spoiled by the adverts for Oxy-10 that Marvel were running so heavily that summer. Maybe best go for the trade if you don’t want little kids to laugh at you for reading it.
 
 
spacemonkey
02:10 / 06.07.04
Hey, don't forget the Clone Saga!

Seriously though, I thought Spider-Man: Blue was pretty good. I can't bring myself to get the Essentials because they're all in black & white.

Who else thinks that the ninja turtles will be the next villain? The scene with Harry discovering the "secret of the ooze" is a dead giveaway.
 
 
TroyJ15
02:41 / 06.07.04
Ha! dumbass! LOL!

Anyway. The first 2 or 3 volumes of Essential are fun if you are really into the character. But I think people try to be too purist about them in their finality (is that a word) of the series. True that this is where they all began but I honestly suggest Ultimate Spider-Man. Especially if you are a new reader who wants something simultaneously smart, humorous, contemporary, action-packed, and funny. For me, I definitely get a kick out out of the old Ditko and Lee stuff. those two (along with Kirby) really did bring comics into a new era and you can tell by how clever and tounge-in-cheek the stuff is written.

I still stand by my recommendation of Kraven's Last Hunt. Yeah, it's very "80s grim" but Spidey has never been a character who gets it easy. It's cool to see a cheesey villian like Kraven step up, and watch the hell that he puts Peter through. And watch Peter come out of it not completely unscathed and even more unsure of himself because he just dragged his new wife into a dangerous world.

Again. Go with Ultimate Spider-Man it will definitely keep your movie-jones going.
 
 
Simplist
04:02 / 06.07.04
Well, cool--lots of good recs above, it seems. I've ordered that three-hardcover Ultimate Spidey package, and will probably try out the first Essentials volume next. Anyone has any further offerings, do throw them in.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
08:41 / 06.07.04
I can't bring myself to get the Essentials because they're all in black & white.

Seriously, anyone who does this is just missing out! It's better in black and white. It really can't be overstated that these are the best Spidey comics, and that every issue is packed to bursting with everything you'd ever need.

To me Ultimate Spider-Man is just kinda "ehhh", but if you really want to see Peter and Mary Jane talking all MTV, think that the conversations actually make for good "characterisation" and have Peter sporting, like... rilly bad hair, then go for it. It just seems pointless as a series, like a diluted version of the original formula. The more I think about them, the more they just seem like poor comics (although they're successful in the current comics storytelling trend, I guess).

Wow, I really seem like one of those old bitter guys on this thread. I'd like to think somebody could do something interesting with the character, but the movies have been the best new outing he's had, in a lot of ways. I think things like Ultimate Spider-Man (although I would say that the movie is a lot more successful in updating and tweaking the story for modern times) are probably among the more sensible things they could do with the character, besides just out and out Mickey Mousing it.
 
 
Axolotl
09:10 / 06.07.04
The black and white art is good, and I love it because the first comics I read were old marvel uk reprints, so for me it's a real nostalgia trip. However I can't help feeling that the colour stuff might kind of add to the feel of the stories, especially the early ones where everything is slightly over the top. However I've never really read any of the old marvel stories in colour, so I could just be wrong.
 
 
diz
12:29 / 06.07.04
this thread is so odd for me, since, for better or for worse, "Kraven's Last Hunt" was one of the first Spidey stories i remember reading as a kid, and as a result it holds a lot of nostalgia value for me. i feel that way about the black costume, too.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:55 / 06.07.04
I agree with Suedey that all of those Essentials look better in black and white than in color - the craft is more apparent, and the original coloring jobs aren't really that great to begin with. A lot of it just looks muddled with the original colors. For the longest time, I never understood what the big deal about Jack Kirby was (and this goes for John Romita and Dave Cockrum too), but seeing their art in black and white was a major revelation for me, and now I'm in love with that whole look.

I agree that Megalomaniacal Spider-Man is worth checking out, but I disagree about Steve Ditko. I like the guy's work, but I think that Spider-Man doesn't hits its stride until John Romita comes on. To me, John Romita is the definitive Spidey artist, with John Romita Jr.'s recent work on the series being the only thing that really comes close to that high standard.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:03 / 06.07.04
Suedey's right about Ultimate Spider-Man - everything good about it is just lifted from the source material, but cut with a lot of bad writing and embarassing ideas about how to make comics "hip" for a nonexistant youth market.

The Ultimate X-Men comics are even more embarassing. At least they never made Peter Parker grow a soul patch.
 
 
TroyJ15
13:16 / 06.07.04
wow! This is the first time I've heard any negativity towards the ultimate Spider-Man title. I'm sorry, but I think it's quentessential Spidey and goes through great pains to find the balancing act of respect for the original material and updating.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:38 / 06.07.04
What about Ultimate Spider-Man is unique to itself, as well as adds something to the Spider-Man mythos? I'd say nothing at all, but I'm curious what a fan of that series may consider special about that series, aside from its "him?" "yeah, him" "really?" "yeah" "cool." "you think so?" "yeah." "him." "right" Bendis dialogue and Aunt May-in-therapy solo issues.
 
 
diz
13:53 / 06.07.04
i'm not especially interested in Ultimate Spidey, but it's largely because (and i know i'm in the minority here) i always found the older, 30-something, married Spidey more interesting.

i think my affection for the older Spidey is a lot like my affection for the older Dr. Carter on ER. Carter started the series as the classic wet-behind-the-ears newbie, and he slowly gained experience as older people left and younger people came in behind him, until one day you look around and realize that he's become an adult and one of the most senior doctors around sometime when you weren't looking.

Spidey's a lot like that. he starts out as the classic Spider-Man - a kid out of his depth and trying to juggle more than he can handle, and while i love that aspect of the character, and i have oodles and oodles of respect for its importance in the history of the superhero genre, i just like mature Spidey even more. i like the fact that he's become a really seasoned, level-headed guy with a decent little life for himself even more. i like that he basically became one of the most experienced heroes in the MU through a long period of organic character growth. that just works for me in a way that novice Spidey doesn't.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:19 / 06.07.04
>>>To me, John Romita is the definitive Spidey artist<<<

That's what I said!

Throw a little Kane in there too, though - when Gil Kane pencils and John Romita inks (as in the Captain Stacy story), it's comics of the highest class.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:21 / 06.07.04
I can ALWAYS understand why people like the Romita version of Spidey better than the Ditko version, and in a lot of ways, Romita came along at the right time for the kind of audience that the comic got. I still like Ditko's version best, simply because no one drew alienation better.

His version of Aunt May is still the one that sticks in my head, and his Jameson was a pretty unique creation when you dig under the surface. The big thing about Ditko in my mind is that with very few exceptions, he created ALLO of Spidey's rogues gallery, and each one is visually unique and well-designed.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:22 / 06.07.04
Cameron, what do you think of John Romita Jr, particularly his work from the past three or four years? I think that he's brilliant, one of the best artists working in comics in general, but consistently wasted on mediocre writers.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:33 / 06.07.04
I totally agree that Ditko was a genius at designing characters. All of those original Spidey villains were so creepy! The one that really sticks out in my mind right now is Mysterio, who isn't a particularly interesting character, but is so wonderful to look at.

I prefer Romita as a comics artist - I prefer his crisp, poppy look, and his sense of storytelling and melodrama. His Spidey art is more cute, more sexy, whereas Ditko is more angsty and creepy. I get the sense that the films borrow more from Ditko's aesthetic, even if they take more images directly from Romita's artwork. I think both Spider-Man films are successful adaptations, but lack some of the silliness and lightness of the Romita issues, which is something that I find very attractive about Spider-Man in general.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:34 / 06.07.04
I haven't actually been reading any of the comics he's been working on, because none of them really appeal enough to buy consistently (what is it, Spider-Man and Thor?), but every time I see his work I do think it looks great. I also have an enormous amount of respect for him to be able to crank out a couple of books a month and always hit his deadlines.

So, thumbs up to JRJR.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:38 / 06.07.04
Hi-jacking this thread slightly...

When I first got into Spiderman, he had the black costume and his girlfriend was the Black Cat. This was pre-Venom, obviously, although I do remember the "costume takes control of Spidey while he's asleep" story (I even remember that later on he had a black cloth costume the Black Cat gave him). I'm pretty sure it was also before the allure of the Black Cat became defined by drawing her with ridiculous breastesses. Sure, she always was a Catwoman knock-off, but just like Selina Kyle, when she was first introduced the sex appeal was supposed to stem from moral ambiguity, general feistiness and, er, being like a cat.

This was also before the put-Parker-through-hell-to-make-him-broody-and-edgy-and-gritty shit set in - although one story I remember was pretty angsty, in that if I recall correctly it ended up with Spidey thinking the Black Cat had died, after he'd had to try to bring her in because she'd gone back to crime. I'd imagine this was pretty much the end of that era.

So my question is: who wrote/drew those stories, are they reprinted anywhere, and most importantly of all, were they really any good?

(Just to add: that wasn't just the first time I got into Spiderman - it was also the last. And I was very young, hence my need to ask if those stories were actually any good.)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:59 / 06.07.04
It sounds as though you are describing Peter David's run on Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man from 1986. I've never read those myself (though I certainly have read a number of Spider-Man comics from that era), so I can't really tell you whether it's good or not. To the best of my knowledge, that stuff mostly has not been collected, though I'm sure it will eventually be reprinted in the Essentials series.
 
 
TroyJ15
00:50 / 07.07.04
Matthew Fluxington: "What about Ultimate Spider-Man is unique to itself, as well as adds something to the Spider-Man mythos? I'd say nothing at all, but I'm curious what a fan of that series may consider special about that series, aside from its "him?" "yeah, him" "really?" "yeah" "cool." "you think so?" "yeah." "him." "right" Bendis dialogue and Aunt May-in-therapy solo issues."

Fair enough, Flux. While you do mock, I feel that that is part of the series charm, the dialouge and stuff like May's therapy sessions. But outside of it's contemporary feel --- the book has a very logical progression in it's stories, which is pretty unique for a mainstream title. Bendis never makes his book cynical in order for it to be contemporary (which is unique in it's own right because this is a mistake too many writers make nowadays, which also makes it unique). It's back to the basics for Spider-Man, he lives and breathes in a real world environment, and all the characters take logical steps. The villians aren't driven by world domination and good guys react like normal people to all these insane situations. Top that off with the fact that the stuff Spidey says in costume is actually funny (I'll give Straczyski props too for going that route too, but his book went downhill after awhile), the characters are likable again (something that many people have failed to do with Mary Jane), we get to see him learn all over again but in a "real world enviornment. It really does understand what makes Spider-Man work and utilizes it to it's full advantage. That's pretty unique given that all the current writers are not doing any of these things with the character. Is it unique to the 60s stuff, it is in the same way that Spidey in the 60s was unique to anything else going on at the time, Ultimate Spider-Man is more unique than any of the other existing Spider-Man title and most of the superhero comics out there. It's not canabalizing but a love letter to Stan, John, and Steve from Bagley and Bendis. Does it add to mythos --- well since it's out of the regularly continuity, sadly, no it doesn't but it does respect the mythos. Now, admitedly the first 5 issues are a rough spot because of all the exposition, but once Kingpin arrives by issue 7 the book goes into full-tilt! It's not incredibly unique because we've been on this ride before, but sure is nice to revisit it with a more contemporary feel with a writer who is able to give a strong voice to these characters again, some even for the first time. It makes Spider-Man grounded, which is something he should always be...and we love him for it.
 
 
Pants Payroll
03:27 / 07.07.04
Nobody ever mentions the Len Wein/Ross Andru stuff (#'s 125-185). Am I alone in loving those? Maybe it's just a nostalgia thing. The oldest material possesions I own are impossibly battered copies of Spider-Man bought when I was just a wee tot. I stil think they're great, though.LIke when Hammerheads ghost tricks Dr Octopus into bringing him back to life, and then Spidy and Ock team up to beat him? Cool. And Tarantula? Yeah, good stuff.
 
 
Simplist
16:59 / 07.07.04
i'm not especially interested in Ultimate Spidey, but it's largely because (and i know i'm in the minority here) i always found the older, 30-something, married Spidey more interesting.

Makes sense. So with that in mind, what are some good examples of "adult Spidey" books that are worth hunting down, ie. good minis available in TPB, etc.? On further consideration, I think this was more what I was looking for when I started the thread. I will give the Essentials volumes a try, no doubt, but those have been pretty hit and miss with me so far in general--I burned through all the X-Men ones, but stalled out halfway through volume 2 of Fantastic Four; adored Tomb of Dracula, but couldn't get into Dr. Strange; etc. And I think presently I'm more in the mood for modern-style writing than the old stuff...
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
18:44 / 07.07.04
I know just mentioning this makes most people freak out, and the whole thing was retconned so none of it ever happened, but Amazing #400, with the death of Aunt May was always really touching to me. Even if it was in the middle of the clone saga (which I still maintain could have been really really cool, if fans hadn't freaked the way they did, Marve; editors didn't completely suck, and the right writers had been on it).
 
  

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