BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Neuro-linguistic programming

 
 
doctorbeck
09:31 / 01.07.04
heard from another thread that some ppl here at temple practice this

now i have to admit i have always been very wary of NLP, and see it as chicanery backed by a poor standard of ethical conduct and professional standards

BUT i am getting open minded in my dotage and am interested in hearing more from practitioners and comparing the CBT that i use to their methods

also interested in scurrilous info about the founder too
 
 
Joetheneophyte
12:01 / 01.07.04
SEEING that it was me (Ve in NLP lingo) that started said thread that you mention, let me the first to offer my opinion

I have been interested in NLP for about 10 years......I came to the field from an interest in Hypnosis

Bandler and Grinder the co Creators of NLP claimed some remarkable successes with NLP.......Now I have NO idea whether their claims were overblown but from my own experience , NLP has not been as effective as I would have hoped.
I might have been very unlucky and met people not overly qualified. The problem as you assert in your post is that NLP and Hypnosis are very unregulated fields and as such, prone to charlatans and people overemphasising their qualifications (and worse people with little experience, GRANTING said qualifications)

Bandler I believe is a marvel....a true wiz at Hypnosis. Grinder is more academic and whilst not as in your face as Bandler, he seems more 'scholarly' and his works are definately more intellecutal and hard to follow than Bandlers'




Anyway, my interest in NLP is still present. Robert Dilts is the guy who impresses me the most AND i really want his theories and work to be proven to work to me.

Dilts (for those who don't know) came up with a theory about Imprints
Imprints are allegedly, specific times in our lives where we are susceptible to programming and influence. basically if something happens at a certain time in your life, then this is hardwired into your brain and will affect beliefs and behaviours accordingly. More than conditioning, IMPRINTS ARE ALLEGEDLY VERY HARD TO CHANGE or modify

Dilts believed that what made Imprints difficult to change was that at the time of the formation, a traumatic Imprint, usually involved the person identifying with the significant other. For exapmple, he noted that if a patient had been beaten up as a child, the adult patient exhibited the aggressiveness of the abuser when recounting the story, rather than the helpless mannerisms of the child


Dilts came up with a theory of 'Re-Imprinting'

I have read wonderful stories of how successful this and other NLP/Hypnosis techniques can be but to date, I have not met anybody who has been able to help me with such matters, whether that be the skill of the practitioner or the nature of my problems


I would be MOST interested to hear

a: SUCCESS STORIES AND ANECDOTAL STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACHIEVED SUCCESS EITHER AS A PATIENT OR PRACTITIONER OF NLP

b: HOW nlp copmpares with other therapeutic methods....ie Rebirthing (Leonard Orr).......for example do you believe NLP can reach Imprint levels and change them accordingly


c: Any areas where others feel NLP is unable to help

Thanks for bring this thread up
 
 
doctorbeck
12:44 / 01.07.04
thanks for the speedy thoughts on this, regarding imprints you said:
>IMPRINTS ARE ALLEGEDLY VERY HARD TO CHANGE or modify

and in some ways they sound like what cognitivce therapists call core schemas, when said schemas are activited all hell can often break loose. i don't know if NLP suggests that these can be laid down by a single critical incident but CT would say establishing these is a slow process

cognitive therapy would likewise say they are hard to shift, over many sessions, but in months not the years of psychotherapy, but NLP seems to claim rapid and almost miraculous shifts in single sessions, and i find this highly unlikely

as for regulation of the profession...anyone any the wiser about this?

a
 
 
Joetheneophyte
13:55 / 01.07.04
the major difference I can see between CBT and NLP is that NLP seems to start from a paradigm that if you change Beliefs (a big IF and I have not as yet been lucky enough to experience such a shift).....then behaviour must follow


CBT seems to be (as the name suggests) Behaviour change will eventually bring about change in Beliefs


Dilts said that the heirarchy goes

Spiritual

Identity

Beliefs

Capabilities

Behaviour

Environment




something changing nearer the top of the list would have a more pervasive affect on the levels beneath it. The lower levels and modifications of such (such as moderating behaviour) can produce .......in time......changes in Beliefs

IF YOU ACCEPT DILTS' CRITERIA:

I think CBT works from Behaviour upwards on that heirarchy ....where NLP claims that it can change Beliefs in one or two sessions and as such bring the whole house of cards crashing down

Dilts in "Beliefs and Pathways to Wellbeing" (with Halbomm and Smith) acutally brings up the issue of strategies and how such a change in Belief can leave the client lost, if they have no strategies to cope


I think Bandler himself mentioned how a great piece of work he did with a lady of advancing years was nearly ruined when the lady was shocked to see how much of her life she had wasted due to inappropriate beliefs. He had changed the Beliefs but not the coping strategies and behavioural changes necessary to support the changework he had accomplished

I don't know....I want to believe in NLP but I have my doubts. Like any reasonably new (30 years?) methodology, charlatans and false claims are rife

I hope it is true


I suspect as with anything, some gifted people are able to produce the results they claim....whilst others are just pissing in the wind


Now CBT I believe can change Behaviour but I would imagine and from observation, I am not a great fan of the CBT belief that if behaviour changes 'core schemes.......Imprints or Beliefs of a deep nature' can change over time. I believe it is possible but prone to set backs and much disappointment

A lady of my acquaintance atteneded laods of CBT sessions and whilst her behaviour improved, she was still a nervous wreck and underlying, very insecure. So there was an improvement but not a 'cure' (sorry for using that word)
of her underlying sense of self worth

it was like she was faking . Now agreed I know the old axiom, fake it until you make it but to me....it just didn't seem sufficient that in this day and age, that is the best we have to offer


I sincerely hope NLP has something new to offer and is even half as good as the practitioners claim

I await to be thrilled
 
 
Joetheneophyte
15:46 / 01.07.04
Hi again Dr Beck

sorry about spelling Schemas wrong, I was typing in work and didn't have time to go back and edit or apologise

I hope my last post made sense

Being neurotic, I ahve often looked for the magick wand or quick fix. the NHS offered me CBT but to me, it wasn't my behaviours that needed changing but my fundamental and longlu held beliefs

I knew that CBT could potentially make me face the things I needed to address but from observations of others, no amount of behaviour modification was going to change my self worth issues and maladaptive thought processes. I understand CBT and I can see how using the DILTS' heirarchal model above, that one could chip away at beliefs over time via behaviour modification

From my own experience and observations, this was insufficient. I became increasingly interested in Hypnosis and then NLP as a result. NLP claimed it could start higher up the criteria ....at the level of Beliefs or even indentity and as a result, the change would be more rapid and pervasive as DILTS claims that each level upwards has a greater effect over the organism/individual as a whole

I attended various NLP practitioners, some good, some claiming qualifications, which I knew amounted to no more than a weekend course. All in all I was and have been pretty disappointed with the whole field and it's followers

I would LOVE to meet one of the biggies.....Bandler, Grinder.......DILTS in particular (he strikes me as more thorough and caring...I think ecology is something he worries about)

I would love to see whether the originators could actually do what they claimed. I am pretty convinced Bandler can produce some of the things he claims. Whether he can successfully teach that to others , well let us just say that the jury is still out for me as to date, I have not met anybody with the level of skill that Banlder claims

I believe he can teach the methodology and even the attitude but he has been doing this for thirty years and his own use of thse skills and ideas is probably as much a mystery to him as it would be to me


I wrote in the other thread about some of Bandlers' demosn....I DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO THAT HERE as it would sideline this interesting conversation and result in slanging matches, suffice to say that he seems past the worst of his excesses and I would love to hear his comments about HOW he managed to resolve some of his issues

for example, did he use NLP/DHE to get over his problems?(Design Human Engineering....Bandlers name for new improved NLP when he couldn't copyright NLP itself!....I don't want to sound insulting as I have heard even better claims about DHE than NLP)

the problem with NLP is it's unregulated nature. This allows in a good way, for new innovative ideas but also allows people with little experience, the right to set up practice and prey on the desperate. That said, the whole psychotherapeutic field is awash with crank credentials and bogus professionals.....it is not confined to NLP

Another problem is which NLP do you follow?

Bandlers Society of NLP/DHE

Grinders' new format NLP?

or the millions of other Neuro this or SomaticRestructuringBrainwave thingymawotsit

Personally, if money would allow, I would go to the source, Grinder , Bandler or Dilts.....jsut to see if they are as affective as they claim.


Another point, again (if you accept that as valid) NLP works from the top of the heirarchy above down.....whilst CBT seems to work the other way.....changes in behaviour, eroding old beliefs and heuristically building new self concept


NLP claims it can give you the self concept and then (hopefully) instill the strategies to accomplish the behaviour change.....dependant upon the nature of the problem


I am sure that NLP can achieve fast phobia cures and habit resolution such as nailbiting

I am not so convinced it can deal with Imprints/Core Schemas.........but I hope I am wrong
 
 
Joetheneophyte
16:00 / 01.07.04
you maybe interested in visiting this website for information and admittedly some wild claims about NLP and Hypnosis

the folks over there are very knowledgeable....they can be a little defensive over their preferred method of working so go gently .....but as a resource and for general info re NLP it is one of the best I have come accross...if not THE best


www.forum.hypnosis.com/forumdisplay.php



Skip, Terry, Don and Merlin in particular are very helpful...they can be a little defensive but their kindness in sharing info is excellent
 
 
Joetheneophyte
18:13 / 01.07.04
By the way, if anybody knows any decent and I mean skilled NLP'ers in the Merseyside area.........could they please send me a private message /contact number etc

Please bear in mind....I have seen several and to date none of them have impressed me. I want to see somebody with at least a couple of years practice under their belts and trained to at least Master Practioner or preferrably higher

Even more preferrable would be somebody versed in the aforementioned Dilts methodology. I don't suppose this is possible but if you could point me in the right direction, I would be very very grateful


please send me a private message if you know anybody like this and also to prevent it looking like advertising or Spam on this board


cheers
 
 
doctorbeck
08:44 / 02.07.04
>CBT seems to be (as the name suggests) Behaviour change >will eventually bring about change in Beliefs

in fact the opposite is true, cbt assumes that problematic behaviours are driven by unhelpful thinking styles, cognitions thus to a large extent drive behaviours and emotional states, although it is recognised that behaviours lead to situations that reinforce unhelpful beliefs (such as someone believing 'i can never be loved' sabotaging relationships and proving themselves right) or on a simpler level the thought / cognition 'there is no point getting out of bed, life is awful' will make you less likely to get out of bed

cbt often uses behavioural experiements ('why not get out of bed and see what happens?') to challenge unhelpful thoughts, or at least help the patient identify the thinking styles they might have when they try the experiment

as for stuff like rebirthing / primal scream therapy etc, i have to say, 'snake oil' at worst, aromatherapy at best (eg from useless to pleasant and relaxing but no use past the placebo effect)

andrew


ps this seems to be just the two ou us but happy to keep posting in case anyone else is reading for interest
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:12 / 02.07.04
I see what you are saying about the Belief/Core problem driving the behaviour and ensuring that the client sabotages all their behaviour to fit the underlying belief
(self fulfilling prophecy)

My problem with CBT is that even challenging the Belief by asking the client to follow a behaviour,as in your example such as getting our of bed......might conceivably prove to them they are wrong in their beliefs..........(and is better than not attempting at all)
BUT it is also possible that they may get out of bed (baby steps) and then the first negative experience they encounter will make the house of cards fall down and be taken as further evidence that the Universe is out to get them


I don't know....maybe I am just lazy and looking for the magic wand but to me, I would hope for an easier ride and I (PERSONALLY) cannot see such little incremental wins, eroding 30 plus years of negativity (in my own case).


I am a believer in the root cause being identified and this requiring reframing before lasting change can occurr

But maybe I am a symptom snob and have been influenced too greatly by years of Hypnosis literature

(Then again various Hypnotherapists follow different paradigms....some believe in regress to causation, others don't)
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:27 / 02.07.04
Eh, NLP is a little flavour-of-the-month. Until the dilettantes and charlatans leave the scene, I'd investigate some of the older, proven behavoural modification disciplines, like psycho-cybernetics or Alexander technique. Less Anthony Robbins flash, more likely to achieve deep and lasting change.
 
 
illmatic
09:34 / 02.07.04
I had a very interesting conversation with fellow mod Seth, Dr Beck, in a pub meet that you missed out on, on this very subject. He's just finished his Master Practicioner training so is well qualified to talk about it. Hope he gets here soon.

From what I recall his main criticism was the language used in NLP which gives it a veener of scientific truth whereas when practiced, things are a lot more the play of intution and subjectivity. He did report some astonishing experiences, both from himself and others who undertook the training. I can't comment on the extent to which these could be carried over into a theraputic setting, though I do share your skepticism toward "miracle cures". Possibly this had to do with the way in which the discpline has been pushed and marketed, which perhaps goes back to Bandler, who has been described as the worst advert for the system going.

Just out of interest, could you expand on your feelings toward re-birthing etc? I've done some re-birthing type stuff and I found it very powerful. Though whether this would lead to lasting changes in a theraputic setting (which is I think where you're coming from, correct me if I'm wrong) is again debatable.
 
 
doctorbeck
11:25 / 02.07.04
the Ill-1 said:
>I've done some re-birthing type stuff and I found it very powerful. Though whether this would lead to lasting changes in a theraputic setting (which is I think where you're coming from, correct me if I'm wrong) is again debatable.

i think that is my point, no doubt powerful experiences emerge from pseudo-psychotherapeutic practices (like rebirthing) but making them

1 reproducible
2 accessible
3 useful

to a majority of people seems impossible and so puts them out of the bounds of what i would call therapy and into the realms of what, i dunno to call it, magical practice?

i appreciate that i am using the mutilated octopus of science to evaluate them, but i think therapists have an ethical imperative to ensure that what they are offering is likely to be helpful in ways that are objectively measurable

on a side note this is why i also think a lot of psychotherpay is bunkum, but that's another matter

be very interested to hear the view of a grand master nlp practitioner / neuromancer too.

a
 
 
Joetheneophyte
11:36 / 02.07.04
NEUROMANCER!


isn't that what they used to call Duran Duran in 'Manchestu'


I was put off Rebirthing when i read a bit of research that suggested that overbreathing produced a drop in CO2 levels and this told the brain that it shouldn't take up oxygen

Therefore (and after admittedly quickly explaining this to a doctor who works where I work), I couldn't help but think that IOxygen deprivation was the causative factor in the mystical experiences

rather than the Prana experiences that Leonard Orr claims that you are taking in
 
 
illmatic
12:09 / 02.07.04
I wonder though has "rebirthing" (later mutated into something called "vivation" - change of linguistics to stop programming people for big "breakthroughs" and they use some similar techniques, IIRC) ever been taken into a setting not set up by it's founders. Say, something outside the workshop circuit/private practice, into the wider healthcare/mental health system. I'm not aware of any such experiment or study. Perhaps this has more to do with the economics of the field and the busness model of it's practioners than it's viability as a therapy. What I mean by this is, perhaps it's more lucrative to run a private practice than battle for acceptance with a conservative and rightly skeptical healthcare system?

I say this not as big defender of rebirthing - I know very little about it, I have one book on the subject and it strikes me as a bit dodgy, certainly not a universal cure all - more to play devil's advocate.
 
 
illmatic
12:20 / 02.07.04
And to continue in my DA's role (that's District Attoreny Illmatic to you, son) how open do you think the medical establishment* to new models of treatment, especially if they're a bit "wacky"?

*Yes, I realise I've summed up several gazillion independent organisations adn individuals in one fell swoop, and am tainting it as the conservative "hand of the man" but bear with me, willya?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
12:39 / 02.07.04
I've enjoyed this thread immensley but I have to go soon and I won't get the opportunity I doubt to be back online until Monday


see you all then on either this thread or another hopefully equally interesting topic

thanks to you all and have anice weekend

Dr Becks

great stuff


Joe
 
 
Char Aina
17:03 / 02.07.04
NLP, eh?
i played with some of the books i could find on it, but it never seemed to 'click' the way these things often do with me.
it may be that the ManagementSpeak style, and the ONE WEEK OR LESS! attitude of the authors were the problem.

now that i have started playing with ideas of corporate demon slaying/servitude i find myself thinking of getting the books out and doing the week long course as a week long course.


and then this pops up.
synchronicitous happenings, man!
i guess i should look into it a bit more deeply.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:09 / 02.07.04
i studied an introduction to nlp for 10 weeks at a local college, what i found was alot of techniques i had encountered from magical practice ie trance states etc and alot of an alevel psychology course i once did, it felt as if the 2 areas had been thrown together, i cant say i was that impressed, where as some of the research i have read into the operative use of language within nlp was intresting, nlp seems to contain alot of ingredients, perhaps too many, hopefully as it grows it will gather a focus around itself as a practice, at the moment it seems to me like a giant hodge podge.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
09:35 / 03.07.04
Actually I find the earliest books are the best. Structure of Magic I and II. Frogs into Princes. NLP vol 1.

They seem to have gotten self helpy miracle cure-ish after those. Some of Dilt's later stuff seems to still be pretty good.
 
 
Seth
23:49 / 04.07.04
NLP is a toolkit. It’s not comprehensive, but it’s pretty well developed. Yep, the people who use that toolkit as their main methodology often have a tendency to claim that everything they use is NLP - regardless of where it originally came from - just because they’ve used NLP itself to approach it. I guess that’s why it seems a bit of a mishmash at times. Just remember: having a set of kitchen utensils does not make you a great chef, while a great chef will be able to cook brilliantly with the most basic of set-ups. What’s important is whether the practitioner understands his toolkit and apply it to the client in relevant and useful ways, whether they can act lovingly, diligently and with integrity.

I’ve had the privilege to be trained by Ian McDermott, Suzi Sith, Robert Dilts and Tim Hallbom. I’ve also worked with in excess of fifty practitioners throughout the Practitioner and Master Practitioner courses, because everything is learned experientially: you get the chance to be in the service of someone else, and have them be in your service. Yeah, Dilts is the bomb: he’s a good man, he loves people and is prepared to go to great lengths for them. He’s skilled, wise, and very funny.

The neuro-logical levels model that you mention (Spirit down to Environment) is sourced to Gregory Bateson in Dilt’s book, From Coach to Awakener. It can be a very useful way of working, but it’s worth pointing out that it’s an imperfect map of a very complex system, and must only be used with that understanding. A person is only going to appear to fit into those categories because you’re using those categories to measure the person, after all. I think that’s one of the main things that I’ve picked up throughout the course, and it takes a cheesy quantum physics analogy to explain. The observer effects the outcome. Experience is plastic, and will often conform to the expectations of that observer. The NLP presuppositions are a set of hypnotic suggestions to both practitioner and client.

The quality of the progress you’ll make with an NLP practitioner depends entirely on their level of love, wisdom, integrity and skill. But it depends on you, first and foremost, as it’s your experience that’s important in both creating and resolving what you perceive to be problems. A decent practitioner will be able to use NLP as a model to help someone change their experience. Sometimes it seems almost miraculously quick and painless (I helped to sort out the pain in someone’s shoulder in the space of about twenty seconds, for example). Sometimes it’ll take longer and require a great deal more commitment on the part of practitioner and/or client.

Essentially, NLP is a model of the ways in which we create, maintain and change our subjective experience of the world. A lot of it existed in some respect before it was labelled NLP, just under different names. That doesn’t mean that the people who created NLP are charlatans selling us what we’ve always known: they’ve done a fantastic job of systematising a lot of ideas and techniques from a lot of areas. In that way you can see how the things you’ve always known relate to the rest of the system, and you have a greater sense of what to use, and when.

I’ve seen many practitioners in action. Some of what I’ve seen has been wonderful, powerful, and makes you believe anything is possible. Some has been cackhanded and inept, to say the least. If you’re interested in changing yourself, the best thing I could recommend is having clearly defined aims in the changes that you want to make, and if you feel you need help doing that, find someone on the basis of their reputation, regardless of the field they’re from. Remember, NLP was originally modelled on Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir and Gregory Bateson, who all had amazing reputations before NLP existed. People have been changing and helping other people to change before Bandler and Grinder came on the scene. People have been changing for at least the last hundred years, since Freud first fancied his Mum. Before the advent of psychotherapy everyone was fucked and doomed, though…
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:52 / 05.07.04
thanks Seth

I would lvoe to meet Dilts, I am glad your personal experience confirmed the impression I got from reading his books and website

cheers for the post


by the way, did you ever see the Re-Imprinting technique in action and if so, how powerful were the changes made on the client?

Joe
 
 
Seth
11:03 / 05.07.04
We were taught how to re-imprint on the last module. I've seen it demonstrated by McDermott, then been through the technique as practitioner and client.

(Aside: the guy who was practitioner for me was a big old foolish hippy nutter, kept talking about my history, then slowly and deliberately repeating the word as His Story, your His Story. It really got under my skin, and I was sorely tempted to tell him when I was his practitioner he had to have knowledge of self, that he had to Know the Ledge, lest he should fall off... into the Devil Civilisation. What, did he think he was a Five-Percenter or something?)

It seemed to be a significant experience for a lot of people, particularly the guy I was working with. It was pretty significant for me, too. They refer to it as a systemic intervention, because it involves giving specific resources to the model of the significant other who was a part of the cause of the imprint experience. There's a superb part of the exercise where you step into being the specific significant other, wear your approximation of their physiology and experience the world as you imagine they do, and ask what the positive intention of their behaviour was which helped cause the imprint (there's an NLP presupposition right there: that all behaviour has a positive intention at its root. I’m not going to argue the truth of that statement, but see what the world is like if you act as if it’s true). I think that’s where the most of the work gets done: you realise that part of you always knew why they acted the way they did. Then it’s just a matter of taking the sting out of the experience for you.

Anyway, that’s a lot of jargon. Bringing things back down to earth, I helped my partner in the exercise come to terms with a specific experience in his childhood which has made it difficult for him to speak his mind and be himself since (you can see it in his physiology, very developed in the upper body and arms, broad shouldered). It had to do with refusing to eat the food that his mother had made, which upset her. He referred to her as having unspecified mental health issues which had been treated by electro-shock therapy, and described his father’s extreme reaction out of being protective, with phrases like, “Even when she’s wrong, act as if she’s right,” or, “Don’t criticise anyone ‘til you’re perfect.” I riffed on the exercise, recognising that both parents were involved in the imprint, and that the whole family could feed each other the resources necessary. That is, the version of the family that existed in my partner’s head. I had him provide the necessary resource to his father, who then resourced the mother, and both parents acted together then resourced the younger version of him back in the experience when he was five or six years old. “Resource” being jargon for “give them what they need to deal with the experience.” The final step is taking that new relationship with the old memories and working it through the clients whole life, and seeing whether anything else crops up that they need to deal with in the process.

(Another aside: this is one of the only places in which NLP borders on changing the content of a past experience, rather than changing its structure and your relationship to the experience. By resourcing the significant other and asking the memory to be replayed as if they had those resources, you’re effectively imagining an alternate past. The only other technique that I’ve been taught that does this is trauma re-coding, which is the closest thing to miraculous that I’ve seen on the course, in which a person who’d been suffering from back trauma for twenty years visibly started to recover in front of us, and was completely fine by the next module. In that instance, the memory was played as if the traumatic experience never occurred, and then worked into the muscle of the person’s body in the act of physically performing the actions that would have prevented them from coming to harm. If this is setting alarm bells ringing, then you’re exactly the kind of person who can be trusted to learn this type of stuff. This is not a game, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. That has to be weighed against the potential benefits of resolving something that the person’s been struggling with for a long time. You really need to have an understanding of ecology and be prepared to deal with ethical grey areas. But then, you need those skills for the rest of life, anyway…)

So, where does the specific interest in re-imprinting come from? Feel free not to answer that question if it’s private (you’ll notice that I haven’t told you about my experience of the exercise).
 
 
doctorbeck
13:22 / 05.07.04
>The final step is taking that new relationship with the >old memories and working it through the clients whole >life, and seeing whether anything else crops up that they >need to deal with in the process

see i like the sound of this, it makes sense as a therapist, seems to draw on some systemic thinking (eg locating the problem not just in the individual but in other sub-systems) and the cognitve ideas of core schemas established in the past driving present behaviours, which makes sense from my perspective

i suppose i am still struggling with whether there is an evidence base for it using randomised control trials and my kne jerk reaction to the mystical overlays of some of the language, also the graniose claims for it's successes i have read

also very good point that illmatic makes about other alternative therapies not bothering with the control trial / medical route as it doesn't pay (true and good point) and may not be worth the effort in convincing the establishment

have to say that most psychologists are open to whatever works, the good ones at least, but that we have a high standard of submissable evidence and it takes resources to conduct those trials. interesting that CBT was deveoped by medically trained staff originally (as was psychotherapy) so was easier to establish


a
 
 
macrophage
14:13 / 05.07.04
I think that self-hypnosis can work wonders, I don't do enough of it! I have a soft spot for alot of the NLP techniques, y'know stuff like reframing, creative visualisations, attempting fast phobia cures, etc.. I will stick ma heid oot and say that is big money, when you look at how much training can cost and all these seminars, I presume that this is mostly aimed at white collar professionals, I can't afford stuff like this but then I've struck lucky through getting books outta libraries and obtaining pdf's - to tell you the truth I think most people use it and don't even know about it! Like as in word-virus magick if you know what I mean?! So alot of it is commonly utilised they just haven't got whole libraries devoted to it. You could read "Quantum Psychology" by Robert Anton Wilson and come to the same conclusions. So I do attempt to use its methods at some points. I find the Persuasion Engineering department of it a bit funny. It's just positive self development and an attempt at effective communications. As with magick a whole lotta jargon that you have to learn, y'know as in cult techniques. I'm all up for good alchemy!!!!
 
 
Seth
22:28 / 05.07.04
Yup. One of the first things they tell you on the course is to look out for things you already know, and notice how they fit into the larger system of NLP. Imagine my surprise when they taught us how to dance power animals and basic sigil technique (under different names, of course)!
 
 
Joetheneophyte
07:27 / 06.07.04
Hi Seth

I have no problem with detailing muy interest in Re-Imprinting

basically, I am a neurotic mess. I have various incidents that I consciously remember that I blame for my lack of drive and ambition. Whilst I suffer with what you would call an inferiority complex in some instances, in others, the converse is true and I can be an arrogant bastard........For example, I came second out of a class of 31 when I was about 8 years old. My Grandmother gave me £1 and said "if you had have came first, I would have given you £5"

To my child mind (and I suspect still running a sub routine in the back of my mind) this was like being punished for doing well

There is a lot more to it than this one incident, there are other familial problems and resentments and there are other issues I need to address but I definately think this had some bearing on my life and even though i can consciously recall this, I cannot access it under normal circumstances for reframing. I know WHAT she was intending to do (ie motivation to work harder) but even now nearly thirty years later, it still hurts and I still feel resentment.....Crackers I admit but that is how my mind sees the situation


I know of several incidents where I believe I know the causative situation and familial context.......and there are others that I have no idea and I would hope Hypnosis/NLP would be able to access and hopefully reframe

DoctorBeck.....Dilts is good. He is less fluffy than Bandler yet more accessible than Grinder. I really like his stuff and his book Beliefs, is a great introdction to the whole Re-Imprinting theory. Actually, if you do a websearch for Santa Cruz and Dilts, you will probably find his website where he lists his techniques and articles to back up how he reached his conclusions


Seth, thankyou for a very interesting story. What specific NLP technique reminded you of Sigils?

just curious
 
 
adamswish
07:50 / 06.07.04
i have always been very wary of NLP, and see it as chicanery backed by a poor standard of ethical conduct and professional standards

Interesting little aside but back in 2002 I was working at a call centre for a well known (and often hated) Cable TV company when we had training in NLP as part of the new system to patronise/communicate with the customers who called in.

If memory serves the company were using NLP to guide the conversation more than anything else.

I was the only person in the group who had heard of NLP before that morning. Funnily enough I didn't mention how I knew about the system.
 
 
Seth
18:42 / 07.07.04
Joetheneophyte: From your story I'd can see why you think that reimprinting could help. However, you might well find that a single session won't be sufficient to resolve everything for you (you probably know that yourself). I use the analogy of drum tuning: each time a lug is tightened, it'll effect the tension at all the other lugs round the head. To get a perfect tone you'll have to constantly move between the lugs, and the chances are it'll need a tune-up the next time you get ready to play.

(Note: that's not actually how I tune drums. I just wind tons of PTFE tape around the lugs so they stick in place, then never bother tuning, assuming that the tonal idiosyncracies add to the sound. So far everyone agrees that my kit hoofs like a bastard. I need to find the psychological equivalent of PTFE tape!)

Coaching is fairly expensive, but it's really the best way to get a lot out of NLP interventions over time. Ever gone into a long-term coaching relationship? Make sure it's with an experienced practitioner with a shit-hot reputation, of course. They can be quite hard to find, but worth every penny once you do. Try contacting the office at www.itsnlp.com, they can place you in touch with a few ICF registered people. To be honest, though... it's still a lottery as to whether you get someone with real integrity and ability.

I'm happy to see what I can do if you want to come to Southampton for a weekend.

An aside: any practitioner worth their salt will want to do some exploration first to see what you want and which techniques will nail that objective best. Don't be surprised if they don't necessarily go for the reimprinting first...
 
 
Seth
18:51 / 07.07.04
Oh, as far as sigil technique goes, they didn't bother giving it a name. They just suggested it as something you might like to have fun with when you get into a deep trance with self-hypnosis. The technique is identical, only using the trance to embed the sigil as opposed to finding a means of charging it.

I can see how you might adapt and combine the Spinning Icons and Foreground/Background techniques to have a similar effect to sigils, but I've never tried it and just thought it up a second ago. Might try and see and let you know what the results are.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:51 / 08.07.04
thanks Seth

I will mull that over and get back to you

most appreciated and thanks for your time and effort
 
 
SteppersFan
12:21 / 12.07.04
I've seen "NLP Practitioner" on a number of management consultant CVs. NLP's got a strong brand in business and as such it's very white collar. I dislike the commercialisation and ownership of NLP for all the ovious reasons but I note that RAW still rates it and yes, Quantum Psychology has lots of it in there.

My view is that therapy including NLP can have some very quick effects, but much more likely is that it takes WORK and TIME to go back over past experiences and feel them enough to be freed from them.

Similar to magick.

Right, anyone used magick to successfully stop smoking?
 
 
Seth
14:00 / 12.07.04
NLP is magic. Don't be fooled by the fact that it describes itself in pseudo-scientific terminology. It's just another system.

There are quite a few threads about giving up smoking dotted throughout the board, some of which include magical means. Do you specifically mean using NLP to give up?
 
 
macrophage
14:55 / 12.07.04
I am interested in what a NLP practitioner would do to help someone quit smoking. Because I gave up smoking with alot of sigils and even a servitor to back me. But some people came round got me stressed and I got so angry and after 6 weeks of abstinence I had to take up the way of the rolly. The sigil was a success, I mean sigils don't last forever. I suppose at that moment in time I should've "charged" the servitor and visualised it. Weak will innit. Needless. to say I uncreated that servitor.
 
 
rising and revolving
18:20 / 12.07.04
macro - I've found a very easy way to give up, that for me worked a charm.

For me, personally, giving up smoking was *the* single most empowering act of will I'd made up until that point. It quite literally changed my world view - and I couldn't be where I am if I was still smoking.

I do realise that isn't true of everyone - but for me, smoking was sending super-subliminal message to myself that my will was weak. Now I know that's not true.

PM if you're at all interested in the 'how' - I don't want to go evangelising all across the board.
 
 
Seth
18:07 / 13.07.04
It's highly unlikely that an NLP practitioner would have a pre-planned technique to help an individual give up smoking. They'd re-invent their approach and methodology for each specific person in order to find out what works for them.
 
  
Add Your Reply