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How we as fanboys can enjoy comic movies more. This is a rant!

 
 
TroyJ15
06:41 / 30.06.04
So...it's 3 in the morning, I have to get up early and go to work tommorow but I just came from a midnight showing of Spider-Man 2 and it made me think. Made me think about alot of things, actually, never has a superhero movie made me feel so evaluative and reflective. But enough about that. One thing it made me think of though is how we, as fanboys, can enjoy these comic adaptaions more.

Keep in mind that crap is crap. And should be treated as such. There is no excusing BatMan and Robin, but we as fanboys do have a tendecy to nickpick at a movie until there is nothing left. We compare notes to comic book history and we get peeved when this doesn't happen the way it is supposed to. But I realized something that, I think I relaized in X2, the filmmakers are telling a story and these film's are more enjoyable when you let them do that. So what if Mary Jane gets tossed off a bridge instead of Gwen Stacy. They are telling a story, and it's more enjoyable to let it unwind and let it surprise you. It's a rant but I couldn't help it.

No the question is, when is it okay to nickpick. I find it's usually when the original concept is better than or makes less sense than the one used in a film. (In Hulk did his dad have to be a mad scientist, wasn't the fact that he was abusive in the comic enough motivation or was Howard Saint a necessary character to add when Jigsaw or Ma Gunnuci done better). Any thoughts?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:17 / 30.06.04
But I realized something that, I think I relaized in X2, the filmmakers are telling a story and these film's are more enjoyable when you let them do that. So what if Mary Jane gets tossed off a bridge instead of Gwen Stacy. They are telling a story, and it's more enjoyable to let it unwind and let it surprise you. It's a rant but I couldn't help it.

My main beef with X2 wasn't some kind of slavish fanboy devotion to the source material, but rather that the film had stretched itself way too thin, covering way too many characters and was directed by a total hack. To this day it astonishes me that people rate it so high on the Super-Hero Film spectrum. I only wish that Singer et al were telling a story that as it unwound would surprise me, as opposed to the poorly thrown together ass-reek that was the final film. Spider-Man (1) not only distilled the essence of the comic effectively, but it was propelled by a director who has his own energy and sense of style. Compare the relentlessly enjoyable Prisoner Of Azkaban to the lifeless and hollow Chamber of Secrets and Sorcerers Stone and you'll see what I mean.

Give the X-Men to someone who can breathe his or her own life into the franchise, not some unispiring director who spends nearly the entirety of a commentary track to his most original and effective movie talking about how his gardener was in this shot and his accountant was in that one. Singer's got no style. Total paint by numbers direction. I only wish that I would've been left with only nitpicking to compalin about when it comes to X2. I only wish that the film was bloated with visual bombast and action sequences that were thrilling and kinetic but served little purpose to the story or directly contravened the source material. I truly wish that was the case, and that X2 wasn't simply a total waste of time.

I'm seeing Spider-Man 2 tonight and could care less who's falling from what bridge or what Spider-Man is doing running around with his mask off. I could care less. Just knock me on my ass, Messrs. Raimi, Maguire, et al. That's all I ask.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:49 / 30.06.04
Re: Spiderman 2

Shouldn't it have been Vibranium?
 
 
TroyJ15
13:41 / 01.07.04
In Singer's defense, a paint-by-numbers director is what Richard Donner was/is when making the original SuperMan. I think Singer is suitable because he has an outside view and respects the material enough to condense and pick the better elements from the original concepts...at least from what we saw in X2. He wants an arc and he picking and choosing what characters to put in the forefront. His style doesn't over take the material, and honestly with the X-Men it's probably better that way. They don't neeed life breated into them because for so many these characters are already alive, Let them thrive as an entity without the director's style being so relevant. For Spider-Man, Raimi visually is more suited for the character, so it works,and with a smaller cast than X-Men, these characters can become an entity or like BatMan to Burton because visually (not narratively) he is more suited to the character. It's a different case.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:54 / 01.07.04
I couldn't possibly disagree more. The X-Men are by far the most angst ridden Super-Heroes ever conceived and have the most visually bombastic powers ever. Saddling their story with such an unexpressive director is just plain mean.

Now that Spider-Man 2 is out there and the gap between the two movies (SM2 & X2) is so blatantly obvious, is there really an argument anymore? Isn't it painfully clear that a sense of style is necessary to convey the energy of a medium (comics) completely constructed out of individual styles of expression?

I think that Richard Donner is much more energetic director than Singer, by the way. His films may be total fluff, but Lethal Weapon 3 had some mesmerizing action sequences (nice car chase, NICE) and it managed to illustrate the individual personality of the characters quite effectively.

I don't totally blame Singer, either. It's hugely difficult to pull off an ensemble action movie, especially in the 2 Hour Blockbuster Format. I think an X-Men movie would work much better in a kind of three hour format focusing on a much broader story. The problem is that they've decided that a certain kind of comic book movie works for audiences, one that follows a very linear path. It works incredibly well in something like SM2, because we're focussed completely on Peter Parker. If you want us to pay attention to six or seven people, you can't just have them worrying about this one guy breaking into their house and kidnapping their teacher, no matter how many henchmen he's got and no matter how many anonymous and innocent millions have their lives at stake. Make a movie out of the Mutant Massacre, or something. Something that spans some time and gives everyone something really important to do. If they really go balls out and adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga or even Morrison's run, then I think they have a much greater chance of success, Singer or no, although I'd love to see the same kind of verve and bombast that I just saw last night in SM2 being used to portray an adventure of the X-Men. They fucking deserve that shit.

Also, I'll add, there has to be a balance. Daredevil and Hulk were all style and no substance and that ain't right. That's why I hold out hope that there is an X-Men movie out there that Singer could make that would have so much substance, that would give all of our favorite mutants just as meaningful an arc as Peter Parker had in SM2, that he could shoot it on a tripod and all in masters and I'd still be riveted.
 
 
TroyJ15
20:32 / 01.07.04
Hm. See I think I understand better what you mean. Donner at his is worst is crappy but at his best he is real good. Singer is still learning his craft and with so many characters in one film it's hard to create the right amount of substance. I honestly don't believe any director is capable of doing that because the audience will always sit there and say "I want more -- let's see Juggernaut or Cable now."

The X-Men movies are going to be treated like a wrestling tag match, because of that, Nightcrawler gets tagged for a few minutes, then he tags in Collosuss, then he tags in Xavier,etc. etc. I agree in what you're saying. But also think that what Singer is doing is the best format for the X-Men films. I mean, to qoute Grant Morrison, "We are talking aboutthe most convoluted series in the entire medium of comics. There is just too much. I understand what Singer is doing. He gives us just a bit of each and he doesn't thrown his autuer-status at us because this is there film, and I feel that visually X-Men may not be Speilberg-esque in the style department but doesn't have to be. The action (in my opinion) is very solid in X2 as well as the effects and the look is slick but not obvious as, say, Raimi. I'm sorry but I just think there are too many characters for the level of substance that you want --- and the level of demand is too high for these characters. Storm is going to be in the background, and all the director can do is let the actors attempt to give them as much depth as possible with information that the comics provide --- which is what Singer does.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:26 / 02.07.04
The X-Men movies are going to be treated like a wrestling tag match, because of that, Nightcrawler gets tagged for a few minutes, then he tags in Collosuss, then he tags in Xavier,etc. etc. I agree in what you're saying. But also think that what Singer is doing is the best format for the X-Men films.

It's the only one that's ever been tried. Why not give it to someone who's skilled at illustrating a multitude of characters through brief screentime? There are tons of directors who can do that, but we must also put a bit of pressure on the writing. Give each character one true scene and it doesn't even matter if you only see them for a few minutes, they'll be whole people. I learned more about Harry Osborne with a twenty second smack than I did about anyone in the entire 4 hours of both X-Men movies.

I mean, to qoute Grant Morrison, "We are talking about the most convoluted series in the entire medium of comics."

"Cut Singer some slack, because it's a really hard job."

BULLLLLLLLSHIIIIIIIIIIIT.


There is just too much. I understand what Singer is doing. He gives us just a bit of each and he doesn't thrown his autuer-status at us because this is there film, and I feel that visually X-Men may not be Speilberg-esque in the style department but doesn't have to be.

What "autuer-status"? This is Bryan Singer. Does that guy who directed "Go" have "autuer-status" too?

I'd go on the record and say that if your going to serve up such an uninspired story, you'd better spice it up with a little style. And, no, omni-present muted gunmetal tones does not count as style.

The action (in my opinion) is very solid in X2 as well as the effects and the look is slick but not obvious as, say, Raimi. I'm sorry but I just think there are too many characters for the level of substance that you want --- and the level of demand is too high for these characters.

See above. I have to cry bullshit on that. A competent film maker can tell us a huge amount of stuff about any one character in a matter of moments. Make that, "can tell us a huge amount of interesting stuff..." not just "This is a mutant who shoots force beams out of his eyes."

The level of demand is so not that high. Remember how awesome it was when Logan called Scott a dick in the first movie? That's a perfect example of distilling the essence of a character into about ten seconds of screen time. Also, there was the wildly effective prologue of the first film. If they had started X2 with Kurt being chased through the village, I feel we would have had a much more successful film, one that had its roots not in the continuity of the X-Men, but in their spirit.

And if you want to talk action sequences, my problem with the ones in X2 was there complete lack of any kind of kinetic energy. The Hulk was a trainwreck of the highest order, but I could watch those rampage scenes a thousand times in a row because they were done incredibly well.

Do we even need to bring up the Subway fight in Spider-Man 2?

Storm is going to be in the background, and all the director can do is let the actors attempt to give them as much depth as possible with information that the comics provide --- which is what Singer does.

So, what, it's Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christiansen's fault that Obi Wan and Anakin feel about as three dimensional as a popsicle stick? Once again, huge cries of bullshit.

Sorry, I see where you're coming from and it's obvious you enjoyed X2. But I'll just never be convinced that so many other people could not have done a better job.

And, I just cannot see how someone who's seen Spider-Man 2 three times at this point could possibly even consider giving X2 the time of day anymore. You've seen the light, Troy! Do not linger in the darkness!
 
 
TroyJ15
14:07 / 02.07.04
LOL! I just believe that making a super-team movie is very complex. But I do understand what you mean about giving us little bits of insight in each film. True, that Kurt being chased by villagers would have been a very nice touch and would definitely get sympathy with his character. I actually think that is a good idea. But I'm seeing all these little character things in X2 (I'll go on record and say I did not care for the first movie but really enjoyed the second)...we didn't get the villagers, but we did get plenty of scenes where proclaims his faith in God and displays his playful nature. Storm is obviously a cynic when it comes to humanity which is displayed by her conversation with Kurt. Wolverine gets plenty of face time to display his character, but I always figured this was really his movie anyway. My point I guess is that the substance is there in alot of the conversations these characters have with each other. Look at when Pyro is in Bobby's house and he stares at the family portrait as if he longs for that and he is obviously out of control by the way he recklessly uses his powers. Mystique deceitfulness is displayed by how messes with Wolverine in the tent, and how her nose curls up everytime an X-Man asks something of her. And the dynamic of her Magneto's relationship is obvious from some of the comment Magneto makes to her. It's there, dude. Now, visually I agree, that gunmetal is not a great look for a comic book movie but I don't think it takes away from the film. I also agree that it's Lucas' fault for making such a gay follow up to Star Wars
 
 
gridley
14:25 / 02.07.04
What "autuer-status"? This is Bryan Singer. Does that guy who directed "Go" have "autuer-status" too?

You really think "Go" was as good as "The Usual Suspects"? That seems a bit far-fetched....
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:48 / 02.07.04
You really think The Usual Suspects was good enough to garner Singer auteur status in the face of every other film he made afterwards being totally bereft of any of the (very rare) sense of style and kinetic energy he exhibited in the first one? Don't you need, like, at least more than one good movie?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:54 / 02.07.04
Do I really think that the two X-Men films have a fuck load of style and kinetic energy? Do I? Do I really? Do I really really? Will I really really think otherwise if people ask me if that's what I really really think? Will I really?

Er, yes.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:21 / 02.07.04
Really?

(How could I resist?)

I hadn't really considered style and kinesis to be subjective characteristics, but I suppose it's possible that X2 only felt flat and lifeless to me and that, on a basic level, Bryan Singer is more than a competent director, but rather one his own sense of style and energy and that it just completely did not connect with me. I just read Steven Grant's review of Spider-Man 2 at CBR and he thought it was simply "okay" but couldn't reach the heights of his favorite comic book movie, you guessed it, X2: X-Men United. So, you know, there's precedent.

I'm perfectly comfortable accepting the fact that a lot of things that connect with alot of people just don't connect with me (who here remembers the Lost In Translation thread?). It's possible that my experiences with movies like Spider-Man 2 or Lord Of The Rings or any other completely gonzo adventure film have given me too high a standard by which to judge the genre.
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:27 / 02.07.04
I actually liked X2... it was way better than the first one and I had fun.

But after Return of the King, Potter 3, and Spiderman 2 it does seem really flat. All the characters (besides Magneto and Nightcrawler) were ghosts, mere shadows of their paper and ink selves. And it had no style and no attention to detail. Everyone's acting (again besides the two mentioned above) seems loveless and forced.

If they want to make a good flick they should stick to their formula but if they want to make a fucking great film, Singer needs to grow into the kinda director that'll milk a great script of all 38 writers, motivate the cast to act their asses off even if they feel silly in rubber PJs, and turn his production team into a bunch of obsessive.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:15 / 02.07.04
Thuh-HANK you!

I honestly thought I was going fucking bananas.
 
 
PatrickMM
21:33 / 02.07.04
The big difference between Marvel and DC, ergo between this generation of comic book movies and the 70s/80s Batman/Superman era, is that the Marvel characters, particularly the X-Men, are built to be part of an ongoing story. Both the X-Men and Spider-Man are soap operatic, revolving around slow burning extended storylines. This type of storytelling lends itself more to an ongoing format, like comics, or even the animated series of the early 90s.

Spider-Man is a bit easier to adapt to movie form because it's about one person, and we can see everything through his eyes. I thought Spider-Man 2 did a great job of making you feel for Peter Parker as a person instead of as Spider-Man. I was rooting for him to take off the costume in the middle of the movie, and the ending was really fulfilling, not because he defeated Doc Ock, but because he finally opened up to Mary Jane. So, all of the conflicts that Parker has are condensed into a nice two hour package.

However, X-Men is much more difficult to do as a movie because you have to balance so many characters. I think, character wise, the first one was more successful, because of the strong focus on Wolverine and Rogue. Even though almost everyone else was little more than a caricature, we had two strong anchors. While two is probably better on the whole, it doesn't have the same emotional center, because there's just so many people on screen.

If you look at Grant's run, he's able to spotlight certain people in different storylines, depending on the needs of the specific story. The movie isn't really able to do this, and considering the number of characters, the title is better suited to a TV series. I don't know what it's like for people who aren't familiar with the comics, but I feel like a lot of the character relationships weren't developed, as much as just talked about. Like, the Wolverine/Jean/Scott triangle just seemed to exist, it didn't really come about organically.

Marvel comics, for all of their problems, really does feel like a coherent story. The Scott Summers from now was around back in the Dark Phoenix saga days, and despite the fact that it's insanely convoluted, there seems to be actual character development in the X titles.

This just isn't true of most DC properties, and that's why they make better movies. Batman and Superman are more archetypes than characters, and that's why their films work better. It doesn't feel like they're trying to cram forty years of story into one film, it feels like someone is just telling a story about Batman, in the same way that Dark Knight Returns is a story about Batman, it's the same character, but seen through many lenses, of which the film is just one.

That's why I think the best comic book film of all time is Batman Returns. None of the new wave can match up in terms of epic feel, and thematic coherence. Seeing the different personality elements of the archetype, Batman, reflected in The Penguin, Catwoman and Max Schreck is amazing, and the Batman/Catwoman/Selina/Bruce relationship is the closest a film has come to Watchmen in terms of showing the superhero costume as little more than people dressing up to avoid their true feelings.

You're talking about auteur comic book films, this isn't just taking any Batman comic book story and filming it, which is what the Marvel movies feel like, this is Tim Burton doing Batman. It doesn't feel constrained by fan expectations, it's the filmmaker doing what he wants with the character, and that makes it feel much more emotionally real. Nothing in Spider-Man or X-Men (1 or 2) captures the emotional feeling that the penguin's death, or Bruce and Selina's dance has.

Plus, watching it now, in the CG era, seeing real stuff blow up is so refreshing. Batman is real, not a CG double, and even though you may not get those really cool angles, the world seems like a real place, and I prefer that.

So, even though I prefer the Marvel comics, I think DC will always have better movies, just due to the nature of their characters.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
21:48 / 02.07.04
I wish all comic book movies could be comparable to Watchmen, that would be so AWESOME!
 
 
TroyJ15
12:45 / 04.07.04
Okay, PatrickMM. You had me until you put BatMan Returns in there. While I think it's the better out of all the live action films of BaTMan, I would never put it over SupeRMan The Movie, or this recent Spider-Man.

I do however agree with what you said about Tim Burton making it his own flick. To me that's what works about Blade 1 & 2, Spider-Man 2, X2, The first two SupeRMans, and even (to some degree all though it sucked) The Hulk. They don't feel like adaptations --- they feel like movies. Their own entities. The directors are seriously making their own story out of this (but I should note, it is a balancing act because they have to remain somewhat close to source material but bring something new). I think Dc can have good individual movies because of how less detailed the characters are (no offense to DC fans) but Marvel will always be able to make good franchises because of how their stories stretch out.
 
  
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