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Seeing is believing?

  
 
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23:51 / 23.06.04
This may sound silly, but maybe someone can say something that'll help me understand it. One thing about magic that I haven't gotten my head wrapped around yet is the idea of seeing (or, for that matter, conversing with, etc.) "gods" (or demons/spirits/angels/monsters/whatever). I have trouble visualizing what such a thing would look like, or how one would even engage in such a conversation...

I'll try to explain better. Grant Morrison, in "Anarchy for the Masses", says stuff like "I always went for the edge. I thought if you were going to summon anything up, make it one of Lovecraft's monsters and deal with it." I find this statement puzzling... I can understand a ritual to summon such a thing, but how would it appear? Would it just, I don't know, appear before the magician in the ritual area? In dreams? Or does the magician go into a trance and see it in a trance state (or on the "astral plane"?) I just find it hard to believe.... Something just... appearing there. I imagine it must be an unreal experience. I'm not talking about using smoke to or incense to give them form either.

Or, later on in that interview, Morrison talks about his vodou experiences and he describes the scorpian loas "coming through". Coming through what? How would they appear? If he did in fact have conversations with such entities would anyone nearby be able to hear (or see) them? Or is it just all happening in the magician's head? And, were this so, would this mean nothing more then the magician is very good at visualizing? I don't know...

Or are they all on drugs when they "talk" and "see" these things? I'm thinking of RAW's "Cosmic Trigger 2" when he took some acid and did a Crowley ritual and ended up being surrounded by dog-faced demons. This I can understand... he was on drugs at the time so that would explain the appearance of such things... But I'm talking about magicians who aren't on drugs here?

I guess I just have this romantic image from childhood of a magician with a pointy hat and a star-adorned stick saying magic words and getting something to appear out of thin air. I'm not saying it can't happen and I'm not saying I don't believe the people who have had such encounters, but, for my own example, I'm just a little sceptical about it I guess. Like that pan evocation I did so long ago... I expected Pan to magically appear but at the same time in the back of my head I couldn't conceptualize such an encounter (naturally, Pan did not appear in a visual form, but he may of briefly entered my body). perhaps I just haven't mastered the "suspension of disbelief" yet.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:42 / 24.06.04
Sypha

IMO, this is one of those areas (much like fisting or Morris dancing) where you need to be doing it in order to even start getting a handle on it - which is not to say that you'll necessarily be explain it or come up with a coherent model of what's going on.
 
 
Iniquisitive
10:00 / 24.06.04
I know that when I've 'seen' various non-physical creatures, I don't actually see them (with a few exceptions) on this physical plane. It's more like a seeing in my mind's eye, yet very intense. The best way I've found to describe it that it's like a memory of seeing someone, only this memory is happening right now.

The few times I have actually visually percieved anything, it was very vague and misty, like a heat shimmer or glass-colored smoke.

I hope to somehow get to a point where I can see spirits/demons/angels/whathaveyou in a more visual way, just to get the experience of it. I think it will be very interesting.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:48 / 24.06.04
When you're speaking with the Lwa you know in no uncertain terms that they are present in the room with you. Imagine a vast sense of presence overwhelming you, synesthetic "voices" in your head, direct information being dowloaded into your brain. A distinct vibe and a very clear sense of a specific personality engulfing both the room and your consciousness. The white darkness coming on heavy. A sense of being in the presence of Divine Mystery that's so profound that people of both a magical and non-magical persuasion can feel it in the same way, without actually having been involved in the ritual and often without having even got as far as the room in which it is taking place to know that there was a ritual in the first place.

On occasion my flatmate has put his key in the door and thought: "Wooaaah! What the fuck's going on in here!". This sort of thing is not a weird once in a lifetime freak phenomena, but a fairly regular occurence. No drugs involved. No cheesy "visualisation" methods used. No incense smoke or scary lighting needed to set the scene. Don't need any of that with the Lwa. They tend not to appear in physical form, which is why they are called "Les Invisibles" in Haiti. But they might possess one of their children and speak with you that way. The communication isn't limited to a special time or a special place either, they are an intrinsic part of life and an intrinsic part of reality. When they have something to tell you, you know about it.
 
 
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13:23 / 24.06.04
Absence, I'm aware that it's a difficult question to answer (as we're talking about something that's hard to describe in clear terms) but I'm interested in "seeing" such entities without the use of drugs or things of that nature. I'm not disclaiming the idea that drugs aren't useful to magic but it seems to just add fuel to non-magicians that say it's just hallucinations (as in the RAW example related above... I wonder, would the dog-faced demons have appeared were he not tripping on LSD?) So many of the writers I've encountered on this topic fail to get into the specifics. Either they can't put the experience into words, or they want to get the reader to try it and see for themselves, or they're bullshitting.

Gypsy Lantern, I'm curious... would you say that the Lwa are more powerful then the typical goetic demon or whatever because they actually can manifest themselves on this plane without relying on the magician using drugs/visulization/whatever? One of the reasons why I've never really dabbled with vodou is because upon reading about it it struck me as a very brutal practice and very dangerous in nature (of course my exposure to it was upon reading about Grant Morrison's bad experience with it, so perhaps that tainted my opinion regarding it... Perhaps Morrison got involved in it in a half-assed manner). Anyway, thanks for the description...

Interestingly enough in Deren's "Divine Horsemen" there's a lot of stuff about how the Lwa are part of the everyday life of certain Haitian communities (there's a bit about dead people's souls being put into jars and how later on family members can communicate with the souls by talking to the jars, which talk back). One thing about that book I found curious was how the people treated Lwa not as divinties but as things that were once human. Deren says that the loa bow to the priest, are hurt by disrespect and weep for neglect (in turn, she also says that the worshipper is devout but demanding, begging and bargaining at the same time). According to Deren the constant intervention of the loa in the Haitian citizen's daily life is not seen as a miracle but as a everyday thing. What I find curious about this is how it portrays the loa as being subserviant to the priest, yet at the same time shows the priest being subserviant to the loa... Is this some kind of mutual respect thing or something? Almsot everything else I've read says that that the Lwa are brutal to those who disrespect them, yet Deren says they're mainly "hurt by disrespect". Maybe that's just her interpretation or something.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
14:01 / 24.06.04
Comrade Nadon, relax. Just let things happen. It's sounds (and this may just be me stupidly misinterpreting what you said) like you've come close to interactions with 5-D entities (or whatever they really are) but you've resisted at the last moment. If you want to interact with them, you have to let it happen.
Also, don't just wait for them to come to you. Talk to them, ask for their help, and be listening for their answer.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:15 / 24.06.04
talk to them, ask to see them and let yourself, a permanent altar in honour of them helps, feed them love them, make love to them and feed them, dance for them, fight for them,sing to them, praise them, strike up intimate relations with them, know yourself.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:17 / 24.06.04
Sypha

I've never bothered with drugs much when it comes to magical activity, so I won't comment on their viability apropos shaping the perceptual experience of entities, be they either evoked or invoked.
I have had experience of working with a couple of the lwa and evoking goetic demons (more of the latter admittedly). IMO, your question of 'which is more powerful' is a bit nonsensical. Just to give you a couple of examples, a few years ago I was involved in a group invocation of Baphomet where all those concerned reported a strong sense of a 'presence' in the room (not necessarily visual, note) which after a few minutes started to behave in a poltegeist-like manner - ' a heavy art poster slowly peeled off a wall (looking exactly like someone was pulling it off at a right angle, then a 6' high shelf unit topped with a audio speaker started rocking to and fro.
With respect to goetic demons, I did a whole series of work with the demons of the Lesser Key a few years back. Quite often, those of us involved (there were usually at least 2 - sometimes more - present at each working) had 'visions' of the spirits. This is not exactly visualisation, but nor is quite like ordinary 'seeing' either - in this kind of ritual activity there's a whole heap of perceptual stuff going on. However, on one memorable occasion, one person who was present in the building (though not actually in the temple space) actually 'saw' an entity briefly appear in front of them. When they told us about this afterwards, we asked them to draw what they saw, and it was remarkably similar to what the people in the temple had been perceiving.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:12 / 24.06.04
Gypsy Lantern, I'm curious... would you say that the Lwa are more powerful then the typical goetic demon or whatever because they actually can manifest themselves on this plane without relying on the magician using drugs/visulization/whatever?

I dunno, its not top trumps, y'know. All i can say is that working with Them is unlike working with anything else I've ever encountered, and I've encountered a lot of stuff. I don't really have a theory as to why that is. You could speculate that its because they have been the focus of thousands of years of continuous worship, but ultimately that's just speculation. Who knows. It works. That's what matters.

One of the reasons why I've never really dabbled with vodou is because upon reading about it it struck me as a very brutal practice and very dangerous in nature

It is brutal and it is dangerous, but it's also very many other things as well. As is the world around us that they are an expression of. I wouldn't really recommend you go anywhere near it to be honest, Sypha. At least not at the minute. It is heavy stuff and you will likely get yourself in a mess. You seem to get yourself in a mess by not actually doing anything, so I dread to think where you might end up.

my exposure to it was upon reading about Grant Morrison's bad experience with it, so perhaps that tainted my opinion regarding it... Perhaps Morrison got involved in it in a half-assed manner

Morrison is a chaos magician. I'm not sure if they like that too much. Sometimes seem to enjoy messing with chaos magicians a bit and challenging some of the preconceptions that - coming from a CM background - you will tend to try and bring to working with them. Pulls the rug from under your feet a bit. I can see how Morisson might have had some problematic experiences, as I've been there. My various criticisms of CM theory and practice were learnt the hard way.

Interestingly enough in Deren's "Divine Horsemen" there's a lot of stuff about how the Lwa are part of the everyday life of certain Haitian communities

They are a part of everyday life. When you work with the Powers you are constantly in communication with them. It isn't limited to the period of time between opening and closing a ritual.

What I find curious about this is how it portrays the loa as being subserviant to the priest, yet at the same time shows the priest being subserviant to the loa... Is this some kind of mutual respect thing or something?

It's a relationship. It's about give and take. You have to try and earn their respect. And just like any relationship it is alive, always changing, sometimes problematic, but also very rewarding.

Deren's book is great. But its also specifically about Vodou in Haiti in the 1940s. They are Living Gods, and just like any other living being, they change and grow and respond to their environment over time. Which leads to many localised versions of them existing. Vodou in Haiti is not the same as Voodoo in New Orleans, which is different again from the versions existing in Paris, London, or wherever. What all of these versions have in common however, is the nature of the interaction between the Lwa and their horses. You can generally tell straight away if someone is in contact with them, in one form or another, as there will tend to be a commonality of experience.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:38 / 24.06.04
Morrison is a chaos magician. I'm not sure if they like that too much. Sometimes seem to enjoy messing with chaos magicians a bit and challenging some of the preconceptions that - coming from a CM background - you will tend to try and bring to working with them. Pulls the rug from under your feet a bit. I can see how Morisson might have had some problematic experiences, as I've been there. My various criticisms of CM theory and practice were learnt the hard way.

This sounds very similar to the earlier (and, personally, ongoing) discussion regarding Choronzon and the Abyss. I personally have encountered a Choronzonic entity, not "visually" but certainly in presence, and yet the experience has little to do with Crowley's much-published account whatsoever. Mind you, someone pointed out that "Choronzon is not just blood and shit" and that is the crowning lesson of my experience. Choronzon hits where it hurts, deepest, heeding no culturally dictated "confrontation" rules.
 
 
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03:12 / 25.06.04
Spyder, the closest I've ever come to achieving contact with Fifth dimensional entities (or whatever) was a vision of sorts I had last September upon waking up one night. I had a thread on it back then but the more I think about it the weirder it seems to me, though at the time it seemed perfectly normal. It was about evolution... from the primordial waters to the future form of humanity, which in this vision seemed to be monsters of a sort. Lovecraftian tentacled thingies (keep in mind this was months before I read anything by Kenneth Grant mind). It wasn't a scary thing... I've been interested in the creepy and the monsterous my whole life. I do recall that the end form of the monsters was eyeball butterflies, but I'm still trying to figure that last bit out...

Yes. absence, shortly after I posted my second remark I thought that perhaps it's silly trying to rank them in power. I suppose it all depends on perspective. Would a vodou entity have any power over someone who doesn't believe in Voudou at all? This is a tricky question... Speaking of chaos magic, I recall a thread awhile back where someone on here, a chaos magician I think, wanted to get into vodou and someone (probably Lantern) said that it was dangerous to view the Lwa as a paradigm because they could view you as a paradigm.

As for Choronzon and the Abyss, this makes me think of something Illmatic said where he wondered if the Abyss really is the soul-shattering shit experience some people refer to it as, or if maybe it seems that way to us due to our social conditioning or what not (as in we expect it to be bad so, like a self-fulfilling propechy, it is). That old Jung quote... "Think dark things and dark things will happen to you", or something along those lines.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:48 / 25.06.04
I suppose it all depends on perspective. Would a vodou entity have any power over someone who doesn't believe in Voudou at all?

What do you mean by "power over" in this context?

Oh yeah, and having had a long convo with GM a while ago about some of his vodou experiences, I'd say he definitely did not get involved with vodou in a "half-assed manner" - a bit rich from someone who doesn't seem to engage in anything much at all.
 
  
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