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Underground > Temple >

Vatican concerned about rise in "New Age" spiritualism.

11:48 / 16.06.04

Funny, yet deeply sad at the same time.

"This is an enemy with dozens of heads: the version of the Jewish kabbalah espoused by Madonna, the Enneagram personality-reading cult, ancient Egyptian occult practices, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, medieval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Yoga, Zen Buddhism, and many more."

They even managed a swipe at the Gnostics-

""We cannot delude ourselves," he says, that "this return of ancient Gnostic ideas" "will lead toward a renewal of religion." It is, he said, "a way of distorting His Word ... in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian"."

I love it when Pistic Christians have a go at the Gnostics. There's always so much bile.

14:16 / 16.06.04

Let's hear it for "spiritual auto-eroticism"! I don't often chortle at my computer, but that did it....

The article is sad and funny, but a little scary as well. The idea that the Pope has a "spiritual enforcer" at his beck and call just gives me the willies. It's not so much that I'm afraid of Catholics, but that the Religious Right will take that sort of idea to an extreme while in political power.

15:42 / 16.06.04

there is a story on Rense.com at the moment about the Pope stating that the Inquisition 'wasn't that bad'

that is like Dubya saying all those dead Iraqis are at last freed from a tyrant

it suddenly feels very cold in here

16:08 / 16.06.04

The Vatican should be scared!

I was a catholic for a few years in the late 90s, and the utter lack of feeling behind all of the rituals just killed me. For example, the whole ceremony of the Eucharist has the potential to be a true joining with the diety--"Communion"--get it?

But instead, the priest reels off this powerful invocation that no one is really listening to, the music is unbelievably banal, half of the people who received communion are out the door, and the ones who stay are given no time to contemplate what has just transpired. It's stripped of meaning, it's stripped of soul.

Actually, that last sentence pretty much sums up what's wrong with the Church, imho (in my heretical opinion).

So now that the Vatican is aware of spiritual stirrings of a non-Catholic nature, maybe they should take a look at what these systems offer that they don't.

17:04 / 16.06.04

The Vatican can't stop the floodgates...they're already open and have been open for a long time. Let the Pope putter and sputter and mutter - he can't change people exploring spirituality and different ways of looking at the religious, mystical and spiritual world. It is hilarious that he said this, though. Man, taking a shot at the Kabbalah when Christianity was founded off of Judaism - that's low.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:20 / 16.06.04

And isn't the Gnostic belief another 'no church, no spiritual leaders telling you what to do' one? Pope's not going to like that...

22:14 / 16.06.04

The Vatican is falling down but they still have to put a mask on. Just a bunch of blokes who have real estate and finacial matters at hand. Biggest con ever. What's their offical postion on exorcisms then? Bunch of turkeys who wear purple shirts and fish shaped hats (is it French April Fool's or what?) and get away with more. Opus Dei more like Coporo Dei, i.e. the shit of god. How the priesthood managed to take over the roman empire is a feat unto itself. Buncha warted old men shaking bloody hands exchanging winks and washed laundry.

Shanghai Quasar

23:11 / 16.06.04

If history to be believed, the earliest forms of Christianity were around hundreds of years before the Kabbalah emerged from Jewish mystical tradition. Not everyone agrees when it comes to the history of Jewish mysticism, but a fairly secular view is that Kabbalah should be used to refer to the mystic systems that emerged after the twelfth century.

That said, the Vatican has an obligation to defend their followers from the lures of Satanic temptation, don't they? They've been holding these summits and releasing these sorts of reports since they were formed. There's always some new threat to be fought against, real or imagined. Mountains out of molehills and all that.

05:50 / 17.06.04

the devil wants to ensure that the Pope and his collection plates remain empty

Catholicism is like any other religion.........if it gives comfort to the followers, all well and good.........we could all do with the certainty of something in our lives

I have an aunt who makes the Pope look less than pious

Where I do have a problem with Catholicism is their preying upon some of the poorest people in South America.....collection plate money etc and also with the Pope's refusal to accept Condoms or other forms of birth control , in these days of sexual diseases and overpopulation

06:22 / 17.06.04

I found the "decisive battle" statement amusing. Just how do they plan to do that? I have this vision of priests running around swiping at new agers with sticks.... The "spiritual auto-eroticism" comment was enlightening as well. Just when is the church going to realize that masturbation is both safe AND fun.....?

14:02 / 17.06.04

Man, taking a shot at the Kabbalah when Christianity was founded off of Judaism - that's low

To be fair, the kind of Kabbalah Madonna practices isn't really the same thing as the traditional practice you find in, say, Hasidic communities, since although she's over 41 and married, she's not a man, and not really a part of a Jewish community.

Part of the Vatican's duties is to define what is acceptable spiritual belief, and what isn't. It's in their charter, so to speak. It's why the Magesterium (that is, the teaching authority of the church) exists.

And also, before the 300s (and many times afterwards) there were plenty of religious authority figures in gnostic sects both within and outside the church. Valentinus, who gave his name to the Valentinian gnostics, was a bishop -- and, according to some, bishop of Rome. Which is, like, one of the biggest authorities you can be. The *experience* is relatively free of control, but the actual organizations were a lot like, say, Baptist churches are now. In fact, Baptists are probably less authoritarian in their organization.

Henningjohnathan

15:45 / 17.06.04

Hey, didn't they recently release a statement that said the Inquisition wasn't that bad?

03:04 / 18.06.04

Here 'tis.

This from an organization that's spent decades (or more) taking in the contributions of millions of believers and using the cash to quietly relocate pedophile priests.

As a modern-day Gnostic, I'd say I'm slightly miffed, but not concerned. Those poor Catholics. Between focusing all their energy on the earthly (and therefore meaningless and doomed) institution of "The Church" and mistakenly worshipping the wrong god, it'll be unlikely that they'll ever find the Divine Spark within themselves.

By the way, I spent the first 18 years of my life as a Catholic and my tongue is pretty far over in my cheek right now.

The inquisition thing does piss me off, though.

00:15 / 19.06.04

One can't tar almost 2000years of Roman Christianity with a single brush,but high time they were stripped of their garments and marched through the streets to the nearest dole office.As an Irishman and a ****** I am a sworn enemy of right wing Catholisism."There is death for the dogs."

Shanghai Quasar

04:16 / 19.06.04

Pope's refusal to accept Condoms or other forms of birth control, in these days of sexual diseases and overpopulation.

I'm pretty sure that the Pope is chaste, and I don't think he'd have the energy for that sort of action these days if he weren't.

I do wonder why the Pope should be expected to promote condoms when he's promoting sexual abstinence and piety for all the unmarried virgins. As for overpopulation, well, that's just God's will for a man and his wife, innit?

Really, it's almost as if you expect them to start acting in ways that would fit with your views as to how society should function.

Just when is the church going to realize that masturbation is both safe AND fun.....?

The same day that you realise it's just the opposite, I expect. Why should they dump all their beliefs just because you don't agree with them?

06:20 / 19.06.04

I do wonder why the Pope should be expected to promote condoms when he's promoting sexual abstinence and piety for all the unmarried virgins.

Well clearly the message of abstinence did not get through to the 17 million dead from AIDS in Africa. Perhaps a more pragmatic approach to the issue would be more humanitarian than lying about the risks of condoms
and contributing to the epidemic searing through the continent?

BBC investigation of the impact of the Vatican's teaching on sex.

Shanghai Quasar

15:11 / 19.06.04

Doesn't the Church deal in what they see as ideal reality? Their ideology consists of attempts to provide a means by which to create and live that ideal. It may be more pragmatic to begin deconstructing that belief system and work within the confines of human reality, but the upper echelon of Catholicism doesn't live in that reality.

As far as lying about condoms, are they actively spreading what they know to be false or do they believe it to be true? We can ascertain that they believe that God was made flesh, performed miracles in Judea and was raised from the dead. It's not much of a stretch to include "condoms don't protect against HIV" in that mix, is it?

04:21 / 20.06.04

This is not really what I intended this thread to discuss, but I can't let this lie

It may be more pragmatic to begin deconstructing that belief system and work within the confines of human reality, but the upper echelon of Catholicism doesn't live in that reality.

Which is a real shame, because millions of people are dying due to this belief system. Is it acceptable for a belief system to dictate an individuals right to life? Clearly not, as even the Pope has (sort of)
apologised for "violence in the service of truth". Cultists who encourage suicide are condemned. Why should the Vatican be any different?

I do understand the theory behind this. I believe absolutely in the right of individuals to ascribe to any belief system they choose, but I will never condone the Vatican's position on this. No matter how right they believe they are. I find this position, at best, willfully niave.

We can ascertain that they believe that God was made flesh, performed miracles in Judea and was raised from the dead. It's not much of a stretch to include "condoms don't protect against HIV" in that mix, is it?

Yes, yes, but it's not exactly their area of expertese is it? I don't remember holes in condoms being mentioned anywhere in the scriptures, if they were I may be more forgiving of their position. As it stands millions of people are getting their contraceptive advice, and sometimes governmental policy on contraception, from Priests.

I suggest you read the transcript of the Panorama programme from the link in my last post.

06:45 / 21.06.04

The scripture that supports the "holes in the condoms" position is somewhere in Leviticus. Or Numbers. From memory it has something to do with the rubber cup that floweth over.

07:21 / 21.06.04

I cannot profess to know the first thing about condoms and their ability to stop the spread of disease but purely fugging coincedentally, some guy with whom I work has just mentioned a film he has downloaded off the net that mentions how condoms are useless against the spread of Aids

isn't life weird

07:56 / 21.06.04

The scripture that supports the "holes in the condoms" position is somewhere in Leviticus. Or Numbers. From memory it has something to do with the rubber cup that floweth over.

Bollocks it does. Quote me the chapter and verse so I can verify that willya?

some guy with whom I work has just mentioned a film he has downloaded off the net that mentions how condoms are useless against the spread of Aids.

No offence to your friend but I'd trust the consensus of medical opinion for my health advice long before I trust some film from the net.

08:14 / 21.06.04

Seth- were you, in fact, joking? It's so hard to tell with Leviticus. Don't eat Lobster, sacrifice pigeons on your period etc, etc.

08:35 / 21.06.04

I don't believe the holes in condoms scenario but I don't think we are told the full facts either. I am a conspiracy theorist by nature so 'fringe' stuff like this does interest me

Haven't seen the film myself so i cannot comment

No the point I was more interested in was how many days in a year would the average person discuss whether condoms have holes in them and whether this passes on disease

Today, for the first time this year to my knowledge, I peruse Barbelith and this is being discussed and then less than half an hour later.....a guy in work brings up similar stuff but from a different source

weird methinks

09:10 / 21.06.04

Very true, Joe.

Henningjohnathan

15:34 / 21.06.04

Just started reading a couple of books on the Cathars and howthe Crusades and Inquisition wiped out this unique form of Gnostic Christianity in Southern France. I think that the dogma of the Catholic church is inherently fearful of more ecstatic and rewarding rather than punitive approaches to spiritual development. However, I also think that some Monastic and Jesuit approaches manage to get past the dogma in the pursuit of revealed truth in Catholicism rather than blind faith.

17:22 / 21.06.04

Nobody's girl: It was a joke. Moses rode bareback. Says so in Deuteronomy. It's part of the long discourse he has with Gandalf.

The Vatican has never really required scriptural precedent for its pronouncements. Many of us Protestants tend to cringe and get angry about this kind of thing as much as anyone else.