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Europe: Pros & Cons

10:33 / 15.06.04

Following the unexpected success of the UK Independence Party, I thought it might be worthwhile to have a thread to discuss the issues involved around closer economic and politcal union with Europe.

It seems to be the de facto positon on this board that closer Euopean union is a good thing. To a degree, I agree but I wonder is this because we're just defining ourselves ourselves against that which we dislike ie. (most of) the Tory Party and Roger Kilroy Silk? Personally, I'm in favour of it, but largely because I'd like to see the political culture of this country move away from it's close ties with the USA (fat chance) and towards some of the more progressive social models in evidence in some European states (again, fat chance, but I can dream, can't I?). But I must admit I know very little about the full range of issues involved.

For a starter, I'm as baffled by the success of the UKIP as anyone - can anyone tell me what they actually stand for?

10:49 / 15.06.04

i think that's exactly it, they have no real platform besides trying to limit our ties with other countries.
to me it seemed like the popularity of kilroy was more important than anything like policies or a manifesto.

has he become a hero of the xenophobic?

Whale... Whale... Fish!

13:30 / 15.06.04

Don't trust anyone who is an orange man-lizard.

What I don't understand is the arguement that further intergration into Europe will lead a loss of "British culture". Has this happened to the anyone else in Europe? I doubt it and when the defenders of British culture are Robert Kilroy-Silk and Joan Collins...

Thank god I'm Scottish.

Tryphena Absent

14:20 / 15.06.04

This country is full of idiots- the day someone adequately explains British culture is the day I dance the samba.

Seriously, I'm of the opinion that a helluva a lot of positive social legislation comes out of Europe. The convention of Human Rights is an incredibly good thing, anything that takes unjust levels of power away from people like Michael Howard has got to be a good thing. I will never understand the type of logic employed by people who believe that our MPs should have the right to extend someone's prison sentence.

14:57 / 15.06.04

Why I want a unified Europe-

I don't know much about the intricacies of this but I want to see a unified Europe because I'd like someone to challenge the US's power. I just feel uncomfortable with an unopposed superpower.

11:40 / 16.06.04

"The £23bn question
After UKIP's shock successes in the European elections, Tony Blair said yesterday withdrawal would be 'extraordinary foolishness'. So what would it mean for Britain?"
Independent article on Europe.

All neatly broken down into subheadings, how handy.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:47 / 16.06.04

I'd agree with Nobody's Girl on this one, only possibly not for the same reasons (maybe... but I don't wanna put words in someone else's mouth).

Personally, I can see a consolidation of superpowers happening (with, of course, al-Qaeda thrown into the mix). And (much though I'd rather have nothing to do with either of them- or English nationalism, for that matter- I'm a "no borders, can't we all be friends" type of stoat, if it comes down to it) I'd rather be mates with the one next door than be the guy over the sea's missile base. Yes, I disagree with the idea of superpowers in general (other than in comics, obviously) but if it's gonna happen...

pointless and uncalled for

13:18 / 16.06.04

As mentioned in the Independant article, withdrawl from the EU would have a significant economic impact on us, but also it would have a strong social impact. Fewer companies are going to want to dedicate stock to trade with someone who has just made it harder, more expensive and has essentially said "we don't want to be your friends any more". Severing our ties, as Kilroy et al want to do is scarcely a step away from racism. I won't be suprised if he ends up using the phrase "cheese eating surrender monkey" before the year is out.

Through logical extension it hurts us not to engage in closer ties with the EU. By not joining the Euro we are continuing a trading mechanism that contains exchange rates. Because of the various trading tactics attached sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. In the meantime all the counties already in the Euro can capitalise on not having to wait on a combination of low price and favourable exchange rate. This forces us to engage in far more trading operations in less stable marketplaces.

Were we to go the whole hog on the Europe deal then things would be both economically and culturally better for us. Not only would we have better economics but we would also have a far better chance of challenging the American uber-power on other platforms.

One good thing that has come from the election of 12 UKIP members is that they have sworn to try and wreck the EU by exposing waste, corruption and so on. Could be a good force for geting the other members and the current beureaucracy to be more diligent in their undertakings.

13:55 / 16.06.04

Micheal Heseltine makes a very similar point here:

The Conservative party has got to explain very clearly the advantages of Europe: for the first time in history 25 countries have agreed to try and find how they can make progress together solving problems which they share in common. That is perfectly compatible with opening up legitimate criticism.

If it is over-bureaucratic, argue against the bureaucracy. If there is corruption, argue against the corruption. Ukip proposals [to withdraw] mean that you allow the French and Germans to fix the rules of our greatest home market.

If our companies want to trade in Europe, they have to trade on terms the European market establishes. If we are not there, I can tell you who will fix the rules: it won't be us."

18:27 / 16.06.04

I think one of the Greens who won a seat put it best when she said that they were working to lessen the power of the European Commission and increase that of the European Parliament.
There are so many different aspects to the European project that it is very easy to just group them all together for the prupose of tabloid analysis.
Let's try and list them all, shall we?
European Parliament
European Commission
European Court of Human Rights
European Central Bank
Council of The EU
Court of Justice
Court of Auditors
European Investment Bank

Oh, I give up. They're all on this handy page somewhere.

My point is that all of these bodies have pros and cons. The Parliament is AFAIK the only elected and representative one, and it's this that the UKIP slackers will try and disrupt. Even if we get pulled out of that one (unlikely. On past form all the UKIP wins mean is that we will have our concerns represented less), can you imagine the hellish mess if we try to extricate ourselves from them all?

Yeesh. I know that there are plenty of areas for reform (sort that friggin CAP and CFP out, guys!) and that loss of fiscal autonomy means that monetarist controls are all we have left, but to pull out?

Nah. I like being friends with all those people who eat strange food and talk funny.
More than I would with Joan Collins and Kilroy-Slick.

14:50 / 19.06.04

Well, UKIP doesn't stand for anything, basically. Did anyone else hear Kilroy's victory speech? He basically said, he is never going to go to Brussels, unless it's to vote on a very important issue, but if there's a golf game or something at the time, he still won't go. He said the UKIP strategy is to vote no to everything raised in the European parliment (assuming they are actually there, of course!), irrespective of what it is about. I can't believe so many people voted for the nutcases, to be honest. It's got to be at least 80% accountable for by comparing voter demographics to fans of the Kilroy show, surely?

Europe: it does have some good sides. Overall, the political bias of the EU member states is generally more left wing than Blair, etc, which I can't help think is a good thing. I think(?) it turned out that the social democrats still formed the largest bloc in the Parliment after the elections, for all the talk of the rise of the nationalist left all over the place. If we integrate more we will certainly benefit from better protection of jobs, the environment, and, of course, a better trading relationship. However, all those bodies are not really very democratic, except for the Parliment, which doesn't necessarily have the most power. And at the moment, there are loads of political arguments going on about who will be the President of Europe, but no-one seems to seriously consider letting us, the citizens elect them, which doesn't promise much for the future...

The one problem I have with the EU is that, despite the fact that the whole political culture of Europe is based on social democrat principles, Brussels is basically using its weight most effectively to make third world countries come into line with the WTO and the IMF and their famously appalling policies. But, there is some positive stuff being done in Brussels on this problem, for example the EU is taking one of the most proactive and progressive positions in the Doha talks at the moment (which are all about making fair trade actually a bit fairer for poorer countries).

So, it's not perfect, but there's are some very real benefits in being involved.