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Magick, Wealth and Money (was: Winning the Lottery)

 
 
brokenbiscuits
16:35 / 14.06.04
I have decided to win the national lottery, on Wednesday or Saturday using magic. I just wondered wether anyone else on here has ever done this, or thought about doing it?
 
 
LykeX
20:04 / 14.06.04
Upon reading this, I immediatly remembered a Peter Carroll quote, which I have now dug up:
Most conventional forms of gamling are set up in such a way that the use of anything but the most extreme forms of psychic power will make little difference. I would not bother to bet on odds that I had reduced from a hundred-to-one to sixty-to-one.
- Liber Kaos, p. 134

Of course, he later makes a comment where he keeps a door open for the possibility. And since you generally shouldn't take Peter Carroll too seriously (I don't, anyway) go ahead and try.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:30 / 15.06.04
numerous schools of thought on this one

Being Chaos Practitioners, most on here will not object to you attempting this and won't particularly worry about the Karmic repercussions

By all means go for it but whilst you might be successful, just think of the Unconscious Magick being employed by the millions of other players on Wednesday night. All this influence and tens of millions of players all WILLING their numbers to come up. Even if you are lucky enough to influence a few of the balls to go your way, the mass consciousness of numerous others all wishing for THEIR numbers is likely to knock a few of your intentions astray


Not only that but your own LUST for result is likely to make it improbable that you could forget your intent and your fears of it not working might potentially sabotage your best work


Sorry for sounding so negative and I wish you all the luck in the world in your endeavours. I often wonder whether money magick os somehow karmically incorrect (just my personal opinion) or whether this is one area where real skill is needed
I have read on other boards that people ahve had success with money magick and little if any karmic 'debt' or ramifications. Possibly my own belief systems will not let me acquire wealth via these means and that may explain my lack of success to date

It would be interesting to hear others stories of how they have brought wealth into their lives


Great post

Good Luck
 
 
LykeX
06:59 / 15.06.04
Good point about normal people's unconsciouis magic, but a conscious ritual should be stronger. People in general hope to win, but deep down they are just as hindered by lust of result as the magician. Also, they don't really believe they have any chance. Most people don't play to win, they play to dream about winning.
So, if you can eliminate your own fears about being unsuccessful*, and bypass any problems lying in your basic belief system, you should be able to achieve some sort of result. Whether that is enough to turn the huge odds against you, is where I have my doubts.
Maybe instead of a ritual to win, it is better to do a divination to know the numbers. That is, don't buy a ticket and try to force the numbers to match, merely find out which numbers will come out, and buy a matching ticket.

* Also, it might be worth mentioning the fear of being successful, which might be more of a problem than you normally think. That of course depends on how successful your spells have been in the past.
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:31 / 15.06.04
Hmmm, hope it works out for you. I've had success getting money when needed, but have never had success with the working you mentioned. Peter Carroll posited that the greater the odds against success, the more gnosis has to be applied and the there has to be an enormously strong object link. While I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what he says, I would agree with that, as it has been borne out in my own experimentation. Take a look at the odds. Getting struck by lightning is far more likely. Of course it's very possible that the intimidation factor due to the odds could be a huge problem..... One thing that I have found in getting needed money is that I've had to not really care whether I got the money. It's a simple belief that it will turn out alright...
 
 
illmatic
08:16 / 15.06.04
I'm not sure if this is a serious topic or not, but what the hell, people start stupid threads that lead to something decent all the time. I think we should broaden the topic for the discussion of wealth money, and the pursit of both through magick. I'm going to mod for a title change (and a topic summary for chrisakes).

Actually, if you want to get rich, better concentrate your efforts on devloping some skills that people will pay you for, or some other kind of conduit for money to come to you. I don't think you ever get something for nothing even with magick. Anyone have any thoughts or experiences they'd like to share?
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:45 / 15.06.04
My partner recently got a couple of Peter Carroll books, I have to say I find him a touch dogmatic. However, I agreed with most of his "Blue Magick" section in Liber Kaos.

To quote a few points I found pertinent-

"...wealth is a measure of how well you control your experiences with money"

True, up to a point. Obviously if you have very little it will be harder to accumulate unless you take risks such as gambling.

"Monies surplus to immediate pleasure should be reinvested as a further evocation."

Fine in theory, but practically my household brings in about 6,000 a year- surplus? Hah! I could probably spare, what, 40 quid a month? Really, at this level investment it seems futile. On the other hand- perhaps that's my problem?

"Those in money consciousness are by nature generous. Offer them an interesting investment and they will offer you a fortune. Just don't ask for small cash handouts."

Whilst I'm not and have no real ambitions to be an entrepreneur I find this statement very useful.
My interpretation is- if you're going to ask for money from, say, an institution (I'm a student) ask for at least twice as much as you need and never act apologetic. Just remember as you're filling out forms and wrangling with officials- that money is yours and it'll be on it's way soon. I have had some very nice results from taking this tack.

"...it is essential to seriously examine all negative thoughts and feelings about money and to exorcise them."

"People tend to have the level of wealth that they deeply believe they should have."

On the nose there. At least for me. Money has always been stressful in my personal history; in my family life as a child, as soon as I got a job I got in debt, I've been homeless due to poverty, I've been on the dole for extended periods etc. Politically I have viewed money negatively too, as a well indoctrinated lefty.
As a result of all these experiences I view money as stressful, upsetting and so on some level I just don't want any part of it.

"Serious blue magick is never attempted by conventional forms of gambling. Conventional gambling is an expensive way of buying experiences which have nothing to do with increasing wealth."

This is the most pertinent point for our friend brokenbiscuits. Make sure you're coming at this from the right angle magickally- this is the domain of the gods of gambling who have no shortage of true believers
, temples
and priests.

I thought about recommending a chat with Eris but she's a playful little minx and knowing Her she'd probably let you win but lose your ticket.
 
 
illmatic
12:18 / 15.06.04
Or you'd win £10 or something similar as happened to an accquaintance of mine upon making a request like this.

(Liber Kaos is a funny one. I think the really creative stuff in there is the physics - I think the rest of the magick in there, isn't that you know, magickal. Doesn't seem that inspired to me).

However, I did agree with this:

Politically I have viewed money negatively too, as a well indoctrinated lefty. As a result of all these experiences I view money as stressful, upsetting and so on some level I just don't want any part of it.

You and me both. Largely 'cos of my politics I thought the acculmulation of money to be the work of the Devil (or worse, Thatcher). I think a lot of occultists are in the same camp, often having "alternative" points of view. With such beliefs hovering in the background, it's obvious you're going to repel money. If anything, the focus of your attention is going to be on something other than making cash. It certainly is in the case of my career, though I should be able to make some changes in a year or so.

More later as I'm close to death from a hayfever attack and can't seem to form a coherent point.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
13:11 / 15.06.04
VERY interesting


I think I hinted earlier about beliefs and I definately BELIEVE myself that if you have any doubts about the ETHICAL standpoint of wishing for money .....then you are less leiky to be successful


I hope I am wrong as I choose and prefer to believe in Magick as less a paradigm that follows the 'Unconscious' and prefer to believe that Magick transcends the unconscious and whilst incorporating the INDIVIDUAL unconscious.............is not restricted or bound by such rules



WOW this is a good thread! (imo)
 
 
illmatic
13:43 / 15.06.04
I don't think it's a question of ethics so much as being made aware of a part of my conditoning of which I was previously blind to. Having said I think you can incoparate ethics into one's financial affairs (for instance ethical consumption and investment).

Is wanting money automatically a bad thing? Is this part of the dogma of magick/spirituality? What do people think?

And also, has anyone had any practical success in raising funds or income through magick?
 
 
FinderWolf
14:50 / 15.06.04
>> "...it is essential to seriously examine all negative thoughts and feelings about money and to exorcise them."

>> "People tend to have the level of wealth that they deeply believe they should have."

This is spot-on, indeed. We'd best get ourselves thinking that we are ENTITLED to financial abundance -- there's nothing wrong with that. Truly. See the book "Conversations With God" (not as cheesy as it sounds and actually quite magickal although it doesn't use the word 'magick') for more on this. I've started really truly BELIEVING I could be very comfortable financially, and picturing it happening in a more vivid way than ever before. Not just pining away after it like some dream girl I don't think I can ever get deep down.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
15:00 / 15.06.04
yeah I have heard of that as well

basically, it is the maintaining the expectation of wealth that brings it's own rewards

I rad a great website called Reality Creator (search words Rality Creator and Hermes) and this is one of the topics 'Hermes' discusses


great site. I am not spamming.....I have no affiliation with this Hermes other than an appreciation but I found the website interesting and with lots of free and interesting info
 
 
Multiple Man
15:11 / 15.06.04
I once used Magick to win a a church fete raffle, it was very satisfactory. Not to re-iterate what other people have said too much but i do think going against the mass subconscious of the entire gambling-nation probably aint gonna work too well.
 
 
Dadaist
17:17 / 15.06.04
The only way to win the lottery that I know: A lot of people (a lot!)thinking the same numbers.
True.
 
 
Nalvage
18:31 / 15.06.04
Here are some comments by Benjamin Rowe that seem relevant:

"Lotteries seem to me to be the worst possible subjects for magickal action.

If the numbers are truly random then there's no link to other events by which the chosen numbers can be influenced; the outcome is entirely indeterminate right up to the moment when it occurs. There is no path of potential co-incident events between you and the goal. If the magick is to work, it has to act directly on the physical system that produces the numbers, and at _precisely_ the instant when the numbers are produced. And in a typical state lottery, it has to do this over again for each digit of the winning number -- six or seven times. It seems to me that a successful outcome in such circumstances would be truly deserving of the label "miraculous".

Human beings continually interact with each other, so there are always a great many potential paths by which you can be brought into contact with your goal. OTOH, the lottery machines are designed to be isolated from any possible influence, so there are no potential links between you and the machines. And since human beings are magickal creatures themselves, they are much more sensitive to such powers than are mere objects.

My observation has been that "results" magick works best when there are human beings in the loop, whose choices and actions can be influenced in such a way as to produce the desired outcome."
 
 
Lord Switch
19:53 / 15.06.04
Well, The only replies I can think of are these:

last year i swapped university courses AND moved abroad. Therefore, the swedish government was very unlikely to keep funding me with student loans. we have a system whereby basically, if you don't get enough credits from your courses they won't pay. Right?

It was allready october and they allready turned me down once, so i knew that if they didn't say yes to my second appeal they would not pay att all.

A sigill later I got the money I was entitled to, plus the money for the months I hadn't gotten paid for.

The second thing I've ever done was at a pub. I didn't have money to buy myself a drink because I had allready ordered a drink for my friend visiting from sweden, and my boyfriend. I had 20 pence left. So I chucked the money into a one armed bandit and asked Hermes to help (I always chuck all money less then 5pence on journeys, thanking Hermes for the safe trip).

lo and behold I won exactly the amount needed to get one drink


I think that when it comes to money magick, you can always get what you need, and you can ALWAYS get what you need in order to get closer to your true will. alltough sometimes you can even get away with getting money you just want as well, with special notice on the word sometimes
 
 
brokenbiscuits
20:40 / 15.06.04
well, just in case anyone's thinking about it, can I respectfully ask that noone else uses magic to try and win tommorrow's British national lottery? the expected jackpot in "only" (hem hem) 2.9 million, barely enough for my plans, i'd rather not share it. There will be more lotteries, and i promise not to enter any more for at least a year.
 
 
LykeX
22:03 / 15.06.04
You honestly have plans budgeted at 2.9 million? What the hell are you going to do if you don't win?

Nalvage: there is the research on thoughts influencing random number generators. This seems to indicate that normal people can influence numbers simply by concentrating. So by training and amplification through ritual, maybe it is possible. Of course, in those experiments the influence was merely statistical, so maybe it isn't enough to really do anything.

By the way, I haven't been able to track down this particular bit of research, I've only seen it quotes. So, if anyone has a link, I'd love it.
 
 
spake
01:44 / 16.06.04
Hey there. I'm new to the temple so please bear with my ranting.

I also recently attempted to make a win in the lottery via magickal means. My methodology involved me attempting to divine the numbers for the draw through a purely random method that i made up as i went along. I also re-inforced it with a sigil i had created some time ago which was designed to improve my financial situation and help me out of debt.

While i didn't have success with the lottery, i did find my finances steadily improving recently, and things have fallen into place neatly with my decision to return to full-time study and subsequent unemployment. In this one point i agree with Z.deScathach, believing things are going to work themselves out for the better and re-inforcing this belief in whatever matter suits you - works effectively.

I also wonder if the Karma involved in winning a large sum of money has anything to do with it. I always made a deal with myself that if i ever came into big money i'd give a decent amount of it away to charity, and to others that i know could really benefit from it.

Does any of this ring true? And how can i improve my methods?
 
 
Nobody's girl
02:41 / 16.06.04
I also wonder if the Karma involved in winning a large sum of money has anything to do with it.

I can see there's a lot of concern over the moral implications of magickally accumulating money.

Here's my recently arrived at conclusions on this-

* Think of all the individuals and companies who control vast quantities of wealth around the world. Can you honestly say you think they're using it well? Humanely, creatively, compassionately, lovingly or selflessly? I don't. I think I could do a much better job of it than the large majority of people controlling riches.

* I feel that my opinions on what wealth should be used for are underrepresented, I would like to increase the diversity of wealthy people.

* I don't want money because I feel the need for status. I don't want money to lord over people. I don't want money for the sake of it, like a dragon on a gleaming hoarde.
I want money so I can experience interesting things it is difficult to experience without money. I want money so I can help people I know (and some I don't know) stop worrying about money and concentrate their energies on more creative and enjoyable endeavours.

I'm trying to turn around a lifetime of negative thinking with the above statements, I welcome any criticisms as I need to be sure of my motivations- please nitpick!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:27 / 16.06.04
Well, you want money to do interesting things, and to help your friends do interesting things. In effect, you say, you want money so that you can stop worrying about what you would like to do if only you had money. But so does *everyone*. You say that those who have large amounts of money aren't spending it in the right way, but I'm not sure large amounts of money *can* be spent in the right way, unless plowed immediately into debt/famine relief, say. The things you want to do with money ultimately follow the same pattern as the people you believe are misusing their money - satisfying your desires. It just happens that you find the desires the money is currently being used to satisfy desires you don't share, but a long-haul flight to Australia to swim in a coral reef and a long-haul flight to Australia to conduct a merger dump the same number of poisons into the atmosphere...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:18 / 16.06.04
Pants.

I was afraid that might be the case.

Oh well, back to square one, eh?
 
 
illmatic
12:14 / 16.06.04
I don't know, I think your statements sound pretty worthwhile to me, especailly when contrasted with the "I never have moey! I hate money! It's for yuppie filth!" attitude that a lot of us may have operating unconsciously. I like the idea of service, in one's work, or whatever your'e doing with your life - and resolving one's financial problems, and having some capital at your disposal enables one to serve more effectively.

More later. No time today, and we all know what time is..
 
 
macrophage
15:09 / 16.06.04
The lottery acts as an unofficial tax for the state, yyou can count me out. Gambling's a mug's game!!!!! Better off buying and selling, or producing.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:16 / 16.06.04
The odds of winning a State or National lottery (especially if you factor in the conflicting wishes of millions of people) might be ludicrous, with or without magick, but what about "local" games like Keno (where the pool of people playing is restricted to the occupants of a small bar)?

And what about other kinds of gambling? Hoodoo has a lot of magick for "gambling luck," both "games"-type (cards or dice, etc.) and local lotteries, and some people swear by it. A big difference, though, seems to be the scale of the operation - you aren't any more likely to win $239billion shooting dice on the corner than you are playing PowerBall... but you've probably got a much better shot of walking home with $80 more than you came with. These "folk magick" kinds of charms aren't designed to make The Big Score - they're designed to keep the gambler in the game (or keep them from going broke, at least). If you can make something like that pay off for you, well you might not be able to quit your job and buy your own island, but you might pull in enough to quit worrying for a little while at a time, even invest a little if you want.

My own work with money charms hasn't brought in a whole lot of new money (though it has done that, a little at a time, on an "as needed" basis), but it has really helped us to hold onto money that we already have -- I get paid biweekly, and we used to go into overdraft a LOT every single pay period. Then, after a hoodoo-style money-working, we managed to just scrape by for a couple of months without going to a negative balance - no additional revenue, but it saved us literally hundreds in overdraft penalties. Things just worked out so that credits cleared before debits, discounts and deals popped up right when we needed them, and those deadly nickel'n'dime expenses eased up a little. It only lasted a couple of months, but I think it's time to do another one.

To get back to the ethics/conditioning issue, this style of working really fits with my own feelings about money -- I am pretty firmly anti-capitalist in my beliefs, so I honestly have no real desire to be rich for riches' sake. Even more, though, I hate being in debt, and being beholden to financial institutions who care nothing about the realities of my situation (car repairs, unpaid sickdays, child's birthday...), and all the stress of being forced to spend my days working for someone else so that I can get barely enough of this money to feed my family... so my magick works to ease that stress, to maximize the utility of the money I have so that I don't need to dread my finances, and I'm content with that effect, for the most part. I also feel that, with all the financial forces stacked against you to keep you grasping and desperate, anything you can do magickally to get an edge without further prostituting yourself to the system is worthwhile. While it still acknowledges and consents to the power of money, it strikes me as a way to sidestep at least some of the sacrifices Capital usually demands.

There's my thoughts. Where's my penny?

~L
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:15 / 16.06.04
Yeah... I was talking about this this evening, and somebody (take a bow, when you log in) suggested that, rather than the lottery, where the odds of a win are absolutely tiny and magic may not be able to affect that enough, maybe our magical practitioners should get down to the dog track. It's much more immediate and comprehensible, you can work in groups without having to dilute the payout, and smallish bets over the course of several meets could mount up, if not to £2.9 million, then at least to the sort of freedom from constant monetary anxiety that lepidopteran describes above, for a bit. It does require a lot more practical application than the lottery, though, for a smaller notional reward...
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:54 / 17.06.04
My only problem with that is that IF (and it is whether you accept pre-destiny etc) you were to unduly influence a dog that was supposed to win.....then that dog might then be killed by the owner who believes he has a dud on his hands

I know a race dog owner and to be honest, the world of greyhound racing is really cutthroat. The dogs are discarded as soon as they can't run anymore or when they don't get the required results. Perfectly healthy animals killed or released to scavenge for no other reason than they are not faster than some other dog

Horrible really
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:04 / 17.06.04
Ah, but what if the person who would have won the lottery if you didn't donated the sum to charity, whereas you spend it on sweets? Think of the lives that could be saved by that sum, and thus the number of deaths your magic has caused... greyhounds is a more immediate issue, but then I'd suggest trying to avoid having too hot a streak on the same track also. In fact, I'd suggest not gambling in an attempt to increase your wealth. That's not what it's designed for.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:52 / 17.06.04
Incidentally, you're bang on the money abutt he cruel treatment of greyhounds. Anyone who would like to know more, and maybe help, is advised to contact the Retired Greyhound Trust (in the UK) - here. Some friends of mine have now adopted three greyhounds, who came from neglectful homes, and are full of righteous anger.
 
 
illmatic
08:18 / 17.06.04
My problem with what you say Joe is that you can always think up a reason not to do something, especially with magick. Sometimes you've got to just y'know, actually get on with it... that is how you learn after all.
 
 
Nobody's girl
08:55 / 17.06.04
My problem with what you say Joe is that you can always think up a reason not to do something, especially with magick.

Yeah, I'd definately agree with that. If you were to intricately weigh up all the ethical issues raised by magick you'd never do anything. You are, after all, attempting to impose your will on the world to change it and who the fuck are you to know how the world needs to change, eh?
 
 
illmatic
09:10 / 17.06.04
Exactly - I could argue if you don't use magick to make one Greyhound win, then another one is for the chop. I think imagined nagative consequences are a crap reason for not attempting your own experiments. My point is every act has consquences, the sandwich you buy for lunch might be indirectly contibuting to free trade, contributing to this message board may be feeding into the rising current of irrationality that threatends to plunge the West back into the dark ages (a James Randi pov) etc.

The only way to completely avoid any consequences, negative or otherwise is to stay at home FOREVER and sit very, very still. And arguably this act will have very negative and unpleasant consequences for the council workers who have to remove your malnourished corpse in a few weeks time.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:15 / 17.06.04
We'd best get ourselves thinking that we are ENTITLED to financial abundance -- there's nothing wrong with that. Truly.

I'm sure there isn't. Trouble is, I'd be very, very surprised if 90% of the people posting on Barbelith don't already have financial abundance compared to the rest of the planet. Ask the universe to make you rich, and I wouldn't be too surprised if you receive the rather puzzled reply: "You already are!"
 
 
Joetheneophyte
11:54 / 17.06.04
Illmatic and Nobodys Girl......good points and I (despite my reservations) have cast a Servitor that could affect the universe in this way. I have done my utmost to ensure it's programming impacts negatively as little as possible but I have sent him off into the World anyway

I am starting to see minor but pleasant changes .....little differences like people who are usually tight as a ducks' ass, suddenly buying me a drink for no reason and bus drivers giving me tickets at half price

Not going to make me rich but nice little touches that brighten my day up

and The Haus of baby field voles....I haven't had a chance (in work at the moment)to read that site but thanks for the link and I will read it over the next couple of days



Greyhounds are I believe the most abused breed of dog in the UK for this very reason (and they generally have a lovely temperament in my experience)


cheers



Joe
 
  
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