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Is This An Easy Question?

 
 
Persephone
16:17 / 14.06.04
Say that you could almost totally control your dreams. There would be no Twilight Zone-type gotchas. This would just be something that you could do. You wouldn't get stuck in a nightmare or anything like that. You could dream anything that you chose. You could change dreams whenever you wanted.

Would you choose to stay dreaming? Would you give up waking life? Presumably your body would be taken care of somewhere. You would have no interaction with the real world after you went to sleep, though. Possibly you could vaguely sense things going on around your body --like if somebody played music for you.

I asked Radix this & he said that he definitely wouldn't, and it was too late to hide on my face that I definitely would. I've thought it over since, and I guess that I probably wouldn't. I'm just thinking about it.
 
 
neukoln
17:53 / 14.06.04
Oh my God I most certainly would would would. As someone crippled by depression and who struggles with the lack of control that one has in waking life... I would love to relinquish all attachment to this reality and enter a dreamworld of my choosing. Oh bliss. I'd miss the sunshine and trees and birdsong and watching the waves, but given that I'd be choosing my dreams I'd spend my dream-life walking through forests in speckled sunlight. Lovely.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:00 / 14.06.04
I enjoy nightmares. Am I psycho?

Nightmares are interesting in a way that nothing ever is when I'm awake. Like, my god, that shambling moss-creature looks like something from the Cartoon Network, but IT'S FUCKING TERRIFYING ME AND I'M GOING TO STAND HERE IN MY FATHER'S DINING ROOM SCREAMING!!!! That kind of stuff never happens to me in real life.

The worst feeling for me is waking up from a dream. I'm okay with the real world and okay with the dream world, I just wish the ground in between was prettier.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
18:02 / 14.06.04
i wouldn't give up on waking life no matter how good constant lucid dreaming could be. it is the inexplicable in life that gives it meaning. if i had complete control i wouldn't want to live.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
18:05 / 14.06.04
I'm with you, Able. Nightmares are just so damned interesting. I enjoy them the same way I enjoy a good horror movie.
 
 
Persephone
19:00 / 14.06.04
Yeah, I was depressed when I thought of this. Also I had woken up from a good dream. Really it seemed obvious at the time. In hindsight, it's so obviously selfish in the same way that depression makes you selfish... this is basically wishing to be dead, isn't it?

I'm fascinated by other people's responses to this. Like yeah, the bit about control. That's why I said that you could ~almost~ totally control your dreams. If you think about it, reality is a shared burden & that's pretty nice, too.
 
 
spake
20:44 / 14.06.04
I totally love this concept!! So yes, i'd happily choose not to wake. However, it would still be cool if i could wake once in awhile. Nothing like a bit of RL to put things in perspective.

And yeah, i find my dreams can be quite escapist from the depression that seems to run rampant in my life. But if we can explore space and other frontiers, . . . why not dreams? Alternative therapy maybe?

Oh, i'd also have to have full and total control. That part is most important. No more nightmares about zombies destroying my family, friends and the world. . .
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:54 / 14.06.04
Why would you want to control your dreams in that way? Isn't the funky thing about dreams that they flit about without you having much say in how they progress?

I'd take the dreaming life, without the control, provided I could wake up every now and again to remember the dreams/catch the cool side of the bed.
 
 
Persephone
22:50 / 14.06.04
Because half the time I dream that my mother is dying, and the other half I dream that I'm making out with someone nice. See I was thinking, you still wouldn't be conscious of your unconscious. So not everything would be known to you; but you could sort of go erk, change depending on the situation.
 
 
Triplets
01:23 / 15.06.04
I'd like to have a bit of lucid dreaming but the discipline of mind that I'd force myself to surface once in a while and go about real life. If nothing but to provide contrast.

But really, wouldn't the people for it miss things like personal relationships and randomosity and magic of life?

Marrig!
 
 
the cat's iao
05:36 / 15.06.04
This is very similar to Robert Nozik's argument that revolves around a thing called "The Experience Machine."

"Suppose there were an experience machine that would give you any experience you desired. Superduper neuropsychologists could stimulate your brain so that you would think and feel you were writing a great novel, or making a friend, or reading an interesting book. All the time you would be floating in a tank, with electrodes attached to your brain. Should you plug into this machine for life, preprogramming your life experiences? [...] Of course, while in the tank you won't know that you're there; you'll think that it's all actually happening [...] Would you plug in?"

Nozik argues that it is unreasonable to plug one's self into such a machine. Here is some different links regarding the matter:

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

Anyway, this is tough, really, because it is framed in a sort of utopian sense: if you could exist in the perfect existence of whatever makes you happy, then would you? What I wonder, because I'm disturbed, is what if we already exist in such a state (there's a thread about this in the Laboratory, eh?). I mean, what if we are actually a being or beings from some other culture where there is only pleasure and such, and we are so bored that we've made machines to hook up to in order to experience strife, conflict, and so on?

There is another philosopher, umm...Hilary Putnam, argues we can't be Brains In Vats. But this argument seems to turn on a semantic point, and not something I think really states we are not brains in vats (or people dreaming, or inside an experience machine).

So, the question seems to turn on identity: would you give up being the person you are to be a different person?

I can't answer this question because I don't feel that I know myself or my Self, or the being that is me, well enough to give it up to be a different being, self, or whatever. Indeed, I sometimes think that the person that any one of us is, is merely the tip, or an appendage, of a more complex being that the individual ego tries to prevent us from knowing--or perhaps functions to shield us from knowing...

But now I've really digressed, and into realms of religious/spiritual sort of narratives.

I'm sorry for blathering on like this, Persephone, I'm not trying to hijack your thread...this is merely what has crossed my mind while thinking about it!

In short, no, I don't feel that this is any easy question in the slightest!

 
 
Z. deScathach
05:38 / 15.06.04
I would give up waking life for dream life, but not if it was all predictable. I have the coolest dreams..... hmmmm, now if I can just get my life to be half as good.......
 
 
neukoln
06:53 / 15.06.04
it's so obviously selfish in the same way that depression makes you selfish

Nope, don't agree. Depression doesn't make you selfish. Depression affects people in different ways, but one of the symptoms of depression is being self-absorbed... which is quite different from being selfish.

this is basically wishing to be dead, isn't it?

Not at all. I don't wish to be dead. Being dead, for me, indicates the complete absence of everything. I was dead before I was born, so being dead again would be like that... nothing. I chose the 'dreaming forever' option cos it would give me control over everything. I would love that. Sure the unpredictable might percolate out of my dreams but I could steer their outcome, couldn't I? That would really appeal to me.
 
 
Persephone
14:27 / 15.06.04
Sure the unpredictable might percolate out of my dreams but I could steer their outcome, couldn't I?

Yes, that's exactly as I'd envisioned it!

I'm interested in how you distinguish self-absorbed from selfish. I'm thinking that what I mean by "selfish" is basically what you mean by self-absorbed. This is sort of a beautifully self-absorbed fantasy, I think. In this dream state, you would be absorbed in yourself. You would be your whole world. It's fascinating who finds this appealing & who finds this repellent.

As regards being dead, I wasn't looking at it so much from my point of view. I'd be as good as dead to everybody else. Besides depending on your belief system, death isn't necessarily nothing. You could be flying around heaven, or you could be riding Hale-Bopp in your brand-new Nikes. But it's all dead to the people you leave behind. Personally, I don't find the heaven myth to be all that comforting.

Plus as Radix pointed out, this particular hypothesis doesn't discard of the body. I was sort of picturing that I'd be sleeping the spare room. Hint: we don't have a spare room. You wouldn't last very long without nutrition. You couldn't be left alone during the day. What if there was a fire? What if you fell off the bed?
 
 
neukoln
19:17 / 15.06.04
I'm interested in how you distinguish self-absorbed from selfish.

Well, I frequently encounter this confusion. Selfish involves another person, it has a goal/intent/purpose which is provocative. Self-absorbed involves only oneself, it is insular and without purpose.

Him: Honey you didn't ask me how my day was.
Her: Oh, I didn't know you were home.

Who is selfish, and who is self-absorbed??

In this dream state, you would be absorbed in yourself. You would be your whole world.

Hmmm... if that's what you want then get yourself a nice neuroses or comparable mental illness! Nothing exists except me when I'm at my worst. However I do know what you mean: You would be the star of your own movie.

I know you'll be aware that there is an analogy between the dream-world and some incarnations of mental illness. So much nicer and safer and easier to create and inhabit a world of your choosing than live in this push-pull world over which you have little control. Depending on where we reside on the gradient of sanity the world we inhabit is to a greater or lesser degree fictitious anyway... isn't it? If I am a fluffy blonde smiley thing then the world I see will be different to that of an angry tired disappointed person. Yet, which of the 2 sees the Real World? Our world views are subjective and each of us inhabits a dream-world defined by what we choose to either promote or ignore. The happiest people are those who can ignore the most!
 
 
Persephone
19:40 / 15.06.04
Self-absorbed, then.

Fascinating, thank you!
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:52 / 15.06.04
It only sounds tempting, this to sleep perchance to dream thing, if there's no "perchance" about it. And therein lies the rub; I would hate to be in so much control. I'm just not insightful enough or smart enough to steer events in a world entirely without serendipitous input from others and achieve any real joy.

You might gather from all of the above that I'm rubbish at "lucid dreaming" and I have lots of utterly crap dreams. I'd be keener on something like a Total Recall scenario where there's all the advantage of escape from reality, it's time-limited, and I can have somebody else's dreams for a change.

Tonight I'm going to try having one of Persephone's.
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:37 / 17.06.04
Actually I got into lucid dreaming for awhile. It seemed like a really good compromise. On one hand, your surroundings have the uncontrolled element, but on the oher hand, you are entirely conscious, and thus can interact with the surroundings as you want. It was the interaction with the unfamilair that was most interesting, so I can't see being able to totally control one's dreams as very rewarding. Well, unless your talking about that sex thing....
 
 
illmatic
08:15 / 17.06.04
I've done loads of lucid dreaming, and I think it's a bit over rated. Part of your brain seems to go "off" (the rational part) and all you can think of doing is flying around, and then having a shag. All right for a while but nothing to base a career on. There's a certain transient satisfaction that occurs in dreams, or the attaining of a dream object - perhaps this is because on one level you know your dreaming. Dreams are very solphistic - you don't indulge in the same sort of interaction with others - neither is there the same sense of meaning, self-direction, cognition etc. - all of which are very much part of the pleasures of being awake

You know how when you wake up, out of a convincing dream, there's a moment of shock and surprise as you let go of the dream and emerge into wakefulness. I see this as quite a satisfying and grounding feeling. There's a certainly quality of reality about erm, reality that I wouldn't want to give up.

If on the other hand, you were to say do you want to live in a complete stimulation which matches reality step for step, only with the of difference of you being in complete control and therefore probably in vastly improved conditions, then my answer might be different... might not be though, as I like chance, having a challenge and not knowing.
 
 
Ex
11:49 / 17.06.04
Part of your brain seems to go "off" (the rational part) and all you can think of doing is flying around, and then having a shag.

I find this also, but I developed my lucid dreaming skills when I was about eleven, to spend time snogging with a LD version of someone I had a crush on. I think it may be this that drags me back to the snogging when I LD these days - notably because I always end up with the person I fancied then (it's alright, they've aged also).

I think I enjoy the otherness of other people too much to want to live in a world entirely populated by figments of my head. But maybe I'm fooling myself. I'm sure a world could be constructed that gives the illusion of variety but without the bother. But it doesn't instinctively appeal.
 
 
neukoln
13:58 / 17.06.04
I developed my lucid dreaming skills when I was about eleven

How does one 'develop' lucid dreaming skills??
 
 
Ex
14:42 / 17.06.04
There are a lot of suggested excercises - try this handy thread in the Temple. Some traditions suggest that you try to remember to look at your hands while you're dreaming, others that you develop a habit when awake of asking yourself "Am I awake or asleep?" which hopefully kicks in when you're asleep also.

Personally, I can reccomend:
- being eleven
- having a big crush
- being desperate to find out what snogging is like

(I have no suggestions as to how you can substitute any of those unhealthy ingredients with organic wholefood alternatives.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:15 / 17.06.04
I think I'd rather live my normal, waking life and have control over my body. What I dream of is having complete, conscious control of my reproductive system so I stop crying uncontrollably once a month and screaming at people because they don't like one CD that I was listening too. It's the fact that a demon lives in my brain and takes control of me that I want to give up, not life itself, turn off those hormones.
 
 
alas
18:02 / 17.06.04
My gut reaction to the scenario is Oh Yes. At first. I'm in this place where I want to interact with the world, but have the interactions turn out well, and yet I don't want to lose the serendipity, the inexplicability, the otherness of the world. Damn.

(But I, like Anna, would happily lose the hormones. If it weren't for all the problems that my older women friends seem to have when their hormones go on permanent holiday. Hot flashes are not as pleasant as a hot day at the beach, I'm told.)
 
 
Persephone
20:01 / 17.06.04
and yet I don't want to lose the serendipity, the inexplicability, the otherness of the world

Don't you sometimes feel all those things about yourself, though? Getting off the subject of dreaming, I mean.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
06:09 / 18.06.04
Here's my $0.02: Once mastering the art of living consciously in one's dreams, one needs to start doing so in one's waking life as well. At least, I recognize that defecit in my own life, and I think it's a fair assumption that it exists in many others' lives as well. Additionally, you take pieces of the waking world into that of sleep; no reason why pieces of the dreamworld oughtn't bubble up to the surface of liminality.

E. Randy Dupre: Why would you want to control your dreams in that way? Isn't the funky thing about dreams that they flit about without you having much say in how they progress?

You could say the same for life: despite the best-laid plans of mlah n' mlah, the waking world is rife with randomness and unforeseeable incidents. The use of controlling dreams is that it's an excellent tool for problem-solving, creativity, self-improvement and, if you subscribe to such things, magickal practices.

Persephone: Because half the time I dream that my mother is dying, and the other half I dream that I'm making out with someone nice.

Be careful to keep that straight, or you may end up making out with your dead mother.

/+,
 
  
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