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On not voting

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:45 / 11.04.05
Alex said (of voting LibDembut where I live, frankly, there isn't any point.

And I disagree with this, partly for the reasons outlined by Lady above, but also because... yes, this whole fucking election's a shoo-in for Labour (although there's a certain tricksy part of me that thinks if Howard DID get in, and found himself with no working policies, it'd destroy the Tories FOR EVER... although that's TOO BIG a risk to take)... I'm not a HUGE fan of the LDs, but I'm more in line with them than either NEW Labour (don't forget the NEW part... it's important. And shit.) or the Tories right now, and they seem best placed to be an opposition (which, I've bored you all with enough recently, is one of the cornerstones of a parliamentary- or any- "democracy") in four, maybe eight years time. Which can only happen if there's the support (even in voter numbers, not necessarily even in seats).

Basically, I've given up on May's election as a foregone conclusion, one-horse race, all that malarkey. But I'm voting in it cos I think maybe it'll help make the next one better.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
18:52 / 11.04.05
I still cannot make up my mind.
The sitting Labour MP who is pro-war, pro-foundation hospitals has a 6 thousand majority and is the only contender against the Tory candidate it what was until 1997 a safe Stockbroker belt Conservative seat.
Voting Lib Dem or not voting will only help the Tories regain it.
The thought of voting New Labour makes me sick.
 
 
A0S
18:58 / 11.04.05
Spoil your ballot. Just write 'none of the above' if your being polite or 'you're all bunch of *******' if you're not.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:48 / 11.04.05
if Howard DID get in, and found himself with no working policies, it'd destroy the Tories FOR EVER

And us too.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:43 / 12.04.05
I'm kind of speechless, but also full of admiration, with regard to the ( qualified, surely, ) boundless faith you lot seem to have in the UK democratic process.

I'm not sure I'd share your Blue Skies thinking, though. From where I'm sitting it all looks terribly black - the future from this point looks... not so good.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:01 / 12.04.05
Really, I'd strongly urge everyone to tactically vote against Nu Labour, if for no other reason than those people have to get biffed on the neb every now and again, and it's the only language that's understandable by them, sadly.h
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:51 / 12.04.05
The thought of voting New Labour makes me sick.

The tories will be worse. They're vulnerable adult killers. Just do it, vote new danger.
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:48 / 12.04.05
The tories will be worse. They're vulnerable adult killers. Just do it, vote new danger.

Nina, did a Tory rape your Grandma or something? You've got a great line in doom saying but I can't help but feel it's a touch hysterical.

Look, here's some stark facts that the New Labour literature seems keen on obscuring- for the Tories to win with a majority of ONE (read- ineffective Major government) there would have to be a swing similar to that of the 1997 election. That just 'aint gonna happen- you know it and I know it. Howard just isn't the right man to lead that kind of comeback, I don't care how many Gypsies he picks on.

My objection to voting New Labour is simply this- my vote will be considered a vindication of their murderous ways in Iraq and I cannot live with that.

Don't give in to the fear-mongering.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:04 / 12.04.05
God, you have faith in the population of this country. I don't- this country voted Thatcher in 3 times, it didn't vote Labour in until it became New Labour and I admit it, I find the Tories financial and immigration policies even worse than those of the Blair party. The only fear I'm giving into is the fear in my own mind... the reality of having a party with Howard, Letwin and May on the front bench of government just hit me. I'd rather have people who at least used to be trotskyites.

So yeah I think people should vote to keep them out rather than not vote. Anyone can be idealistic but everyone can't vote, I went through my entire adolescence resentful of people who wasted the power that they had- when I didn't have any- and that's never going away.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:13 / 12.04.05
What is a 'vulnerable adult killer'? Is it one who kills vulnerable adults, or a vulnerable adult who kills? And if the former, how are the Tory policies (we are to call them 'Conservatives', apparently) different from, for example, Blair's unwillingness to re-vitalise pensions, which will presumably create a host of vulnerable adults down the line?

But the Conservative party is a wash out, and I think Nina's right in saying they'd be a disaster in power. So if you're in a marginal seat, vote tactically. Let's try once again to get some independents or some more Lib Dems into parliament and remove that overall majority. Then we might see some democracy coming down the pipe. And if you're lucky enough to live in Tony's constituency... Vote Reg.
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:27 / 12.04.05
God, you have faith in the population of this country.

It 'aint faith, hon, it's fact. Can I suggest you check out Peter Snow's snazzy swingometer and confirm this yourself. Remember: Labour have 403 seats, the Conservatives have a pathetic 165. Do the math.

this country voted Thatcher in 3 times

In entirely different circumstances. Jesus, Kinnock was the leader of the opposition! The previous Labour government had seriously fucked up, it's just not comparable.

Oh and please, just let me say "I told you so" when Labour comfortably win this election, OK?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:35 / 12.04.05
Do I need to explain that cutting that much tax is going to effect public services but, more importantly, the people who live at the very edge of society? So who's going to be hit by the Conservatives coming to power- well, I probably vaguely will because I'm not finding that much employment, though it's been regular I imagine that it would slow down a little. My other half's job will probably be affected but I can't outline that because it's his place to do so if he wishes. Old women who die from lack of heating every winter? The people who are floating through the mental health sector? Those are the people who will really suffer- not me because when you don't have money and you're a government you take it from the area that will be least publicised or that people feel slightly helpless wrt.

We already have a situation whereby lack of funding means that schizophrenics are getting sent to prison for killing people on the street. Who gets blamed? A doctor. Should they be going to prison? No. Does this mean that the entire sector needs more money? Certainly. Are the Tories going to give it to them? No. They're going to lower taxation.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:37 / 12.04.05
Just because you know Labour are going to win the election doesn't mean they're going to win. You know how they don't win? By people voting. Stranger things have happened than a swing that big. I just don't have faith that people are going to vote as they say they will.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:40 / 12.04.05
And please don't patronise me. A significant number of people in this thread and elsewhere have informed me that they're not going to vote at all. Others tell me they're registering a protest vote- I don't know people who are committed to Labour, only people who are committed to the tories, voting against the tories and to protest against the government. In the face of that I think my fear is founded.
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:22 / 12.04.05
Nina, as a 6 months pregnant, unemployed, OU student, benefits recipient with mental health issues I can assure you that I have a great deal to lose from the Conservatives ascending to power. You have no need to lecture me on the damage that would be done to the vulnerable in the event of a Conservative government- I am that constituency.

Perhaps I just have more respect for my vote than you do. I believe that voting tactically is dishonest and more of a wasted vote than an "idealistic" vote. I cannot condone this government's actions with my vote, I call it my principals.

Anyway, how the fuck else do I get to hold the mediocre little shites to account for their deplorable actions? One of the few methods afforded a powerless little pleb like me is my incredibly unproportionally represented vote. I wont be scare-mongered out of my pathetic portion of the power share by anyone.

I understand the dangers of a Tory government, perhaps more viscerally than a lot of you, but I also understand the dangers of unchecked power.

As Ray Fawkes says at the beginning of this thread-

Is it better to vote tactically so the worst don't get in?

This, I think, is one of the most ass-backwards notions of the modern voter. If you're not satisfied with your current government, how are you ever going to be satisfied by casting your vote for someone you don't agree with, just to get rid of your current government? Won't you just be dissatisfied with the new rule? In a two-party dominated system, doesn't that mean you'll just end up voting for the party you originally wanted to oust next time around?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:12 / 12.04.05
Perhaps I just have more respect for my vote than you do. I believe that voting tactically is dishonest and more of a wasted vote than an "idealistic" vote.

With respect, that's a silly statement. One cannot vote honestly or dishonestly, unless possibly one votes Conservative and immediately convinces oneself that one has actually voted Labour. One can vote in a way that is not true to one's principles, for a number of reasons. One can be dishonest when asked for whom one voted, if one so chooses. But a vote that is dishonest simple is an incoherent concept. Likewise, I'm not sure exactly what a wasted vote is, except perhaps a vote for a losing candidate. Even then, the vote has an impact - it is added to the number of people who voted for each party, which then helps to define what is and is not popular, it affects how one thinks of oneself and how others, if you are honest about your voting, think of you, and so on.

So, voting. One votes to achieve certain aims. One of those aims might be to reflect your own ideology, but it need not be the only aim. Another might be to prevent the victory in your constituency of ideologies more hostile to your own than the idologies you vote for. For example, a rabid Europhobe might decide to vote Conservative rather than UKIP because he feels that the Conservatives, although not as sympathetic to his personal ideology as UKIP, are more likely to be able to _enforce_ an ideology that is more sympathetic to his ideology than, say, New Labour. That's tactical voting, and it demonstrates some of the weaknesses of Ray Fawkes' analysis - most obviously, that it is based on a purely binary electoral system, which we do not have.

So. It seems perfectly reasonable to say to oneself "Self, I am reasonably confident that the Conservatives will not win this General Election. However, whereas the Green Party most closely reflects my own ideology, in this particular instance I find the idea of adding a vote to the number of people who voted for the Green party in the knowledge that they have no chance whatever of winning the seat they are voting in is a less pressing good, in my opinion, than my desire to ensure that the message is given that the Conservative's platform of racial hatred and hostility is a doomed one, and in order to do that I will vote for a party that is less reflective of my own pure political ideology, but more likely to achieve an aim that I feel is more important when contrasted with its achievability, by beating the Conservatives. What say you?”

So far, so good. Therefore, if your primary aim is to ensure that the Conservative party receives as few seats as possible, in the hope that it will lead to the abandonment of policies that you feel would if they entered the political mainstream be ruinous, and if you lived in a marginal seat, it would make sense to fulfil that aim to vote for the party in your estimation most likely to defeat the Conservative party. Nothing wasted about that vote, except if you feel that it is wasted if it fails to achieve that end, in which case a vote based on principle would also be wasted, if the aim was to advance the success of the party one is supporting on principle rather than simply to feel good about oneself for having supported noble principles. Nothing wrong necessarily with either of those aims – citizens are given the vote to do with as they will – discard it, use it to feel self-righteous, use it in support of a party whose political goals match their ideology, use it to frustrate the ambitions of a party whose ideologies are considered so repellent as to compel the subordination of the desire to use the vote to express one’s own ideological preferences, and so on.

Now, what’s interesting is that there are clearly a lot of people, many of whom have traditionally voted Labour (often tactically in the sense that Labour was the political party most likely to succeed whose ideologies most closely mapped to their own), who are now profoundly unwilling to vote Labour because of their personal antipathy to Tony Blair and also because of the single issue of the handling of Iraq. Now, very few of these people are going to transfer their vote to the Conservatives, so that is not an issue. Some will not vote, some will vote for parties closer to their ideological basis despite the low chance of victory (Green, SWP, RCP and so on), and some will transfer their vote to a party which might be a serious contender for a seat (in most cases the Lib Dems, a defection to whom therefore counts double in seats poised between Labour and the Lib Dems). Cumulatively, these may have an impact if not on the simple win/lose result of the election, then on the form and numbers of Parliament after the election. What does Mr. Tony do about this? He can’t tell people to stop thinking about it, because clearly some still do. He cannot admit that he knew there were no WMDs, say, because if he did he would then have to step down immediately and throw the party into chaos. So, he is having to offer what are in effect ideological sops to that constituency, in the hope that they will hold their nose and vote Labour – the promise to foreground fighting HIV and AIDS in Africa, the abolition of European farming subsidies, tighter control of the arms trade. Whether that will work, or whether Iraq has made the departure of many non-negotiable is one of the things we’ll find out, but deciding for ideological reasons not to vote Labour is something that affects the election, as does deciding for pragmatic reasons to vote Labour in a straight Labour/Conservative marginal.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
15:59 / 12.04.05
Haus, may I congratulate you on a superb post. You covered the majority of the points I wished to raise myself (damn my job for getting in the way of Barbelith) so this will be a fair bit shorter than I originally planned.

The one issue I would like to pick up on is that not all parties stand with the intention of gaining power, or, infact, even seats. Smaller single-issue/-area parties can function effectively without ever holding even one seat. To begin with they act to raise issues within the political/social sphere. This alone is a powerful tool as major parties, those with a real chance of winning seats, will never bother to campain on topics with which the voters are not engauged. Further, they act to take votes away from the major parties. This does not need to be a large number, in many constituencies a few hundred votes can swing it. In an attempt to recapture these voters, major parties are presured into adopting some, if not all, of these single issue policies.

The sad fact is that 'negative' tactical voting (the act of voting for one major parties simply to ensure that another major party does not win) starves these smaller parties of the few votes they need in order to weild a meaningful voice.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:00 / 12.04.05
There's also the long-term view- if everybody votes AS IF they lived in a two-party system (which we don't, although we're fairly close to one), then we'll never get further away from it actually being the case.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:01 / 12.04.05
(Although my main fear is that the Tories would win purely because I voted LibDem, and Nina would kick my head in.)
 
 
eye landed
05:09 / 13.04.05
im not british. im canadian. here, too, the conservative party exists almost entirely to ensure the ruling centre party (here called liberal) doesnt get voted out by ideological parties.

most of their policies are so absurd that its easy to believe they are funded by the ruling party as a scare tactic.

anyone who votes out of fear is a sucker or worse.
 
 
astrojax69
23:36 / 03.07.05
bumping this thread 'cause i have been chatting of late about compulsory voting and was going to start a new thread, but it is raised here...

zoskia's point "In fact I would be in favour of the Australian system where you must vote or face a fine but this should only be used alongside a ‘none of the above’ box and the ‘none of the above’ vote should be declared alongside the other candidates.
If none of the above polls the most votes then no MP should be returned for that constituency."
is basically what i was going to comment on...

i have always thought that the only thing that should be compulsory in a true democracy is participation. i don't agree with you, zoskia, that no mp should be returned for a constituency - this might lead to something akin to anarchy: who'd look after that segment of the populations real political interests? and a 'none of the above' vote is really just an informal vote - this can be a clear enough message and it is recorded in the tally.

what it does, though, is give the victorious candidate a sense of the level of hir mandate. if, say a constituency of 100k people voted say 38k informal (ie no candidate selected), 32k for party a, 20k for party b (in a typical two party preferred system) and the remainder among single issue candidates) then the message is that this constituency does not really care strongly for either main party's platform and so 'a' gets the seat but not the mandate. a government in this position is likely to have a senate (in australia, at least) against them and face a number of referenda to get big issues through; it is also likely to have a look at its policies and make some fundamental changes (this applies to both major parties, i expect!)

i was wondering what the outcome might be in, say the united states, if voting was compulsory - as this thread mentions, many minority segements of the community are under-represented and govt. policies simply do not cater to them as they are no threat to their power base. compulsory voting might get their fat arses into gear!
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
09:21 / 04.07.05
Hmm...the trouble with the system you're suggesting is that by eliminating the "none of the above" box, you're effectively coercing people into voting for someone they don't support: because they have to vote for someone or face a fine, you're demanding that they support one of the candidates on offer. Which doesn't seem to be in the spirit of democracy to me. I suppose if you did have a "none of the above" box, and "none of the above" won in a constituency, you'd have to disqualify all the candidates and rerun the election on a local scale in a week's time, and repeat this until an actual candidate was voted in...
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:42 / 04.07.05
apologies if this has been brought up before.

the only way to succeed in playing a game that cannot be won, is by not participating.

if this system (democracy? voting for representation?) has ever worked, it doesn't now.

and by worked, I mean worked for the people who fall under the influence of the system itself.

How can a nation consider itself to have a working government while citizens under its care die of malnutrition, exposure, and preventable diseases? happens in Canada, I'm guessing we're not the only place.

what are we voting for? economic strategy? various approaches to creating new global markets? different allocations of taxation percentages? who gets which contracts? what natural resources can be liquidated?

I don't doubt the sincerity of many people who participate (including myself, once upon a time), however, regardless of how I voted, things didn't turn around. We continued to watch people suffer unnecessarily.

I voted in our most recent federal election, nothing if not capricious, and I cast my ballot for an MP who actually represents our community! fancy that! I will continue to support her, because her constituency is one of the poorest in the country, and she's helping (although, she's doing so within a system that's bound to fail, but any port in a storm I guess).

in the end, who's to say...

>pablo
 
 
astrojax69
22:11 / 04.07.05
because they have to vote for someone or face a fine, you're demanding that they support one of the candidates on offer.

but i am not saying eliminate the 'none of the above' box to force a vote for someone, rather, an informal vote can be simply picking up the ballot paper and putting it straight in the collection box, or marking it in any way that is not a valid vote (so write some message - that will not be read by the candidate, btw - or place ticks instead of numbers, whatever makes the vote invalid. no-one is forced to vote for a standing candidate, only that they participate in some way.

a small percentage of these informal votes will be people who simply fuck up, as happens now, but the corollary is that it opens the way for independent candidates to gauge the mood of the community and offer themslves as candidates for the unrepresented, if there is a significant number of informal votes. an election or two with significant informal votes will surely bring these candidates to the fore. they will give a voice to the disenfranchised while the whole concept of mandate is still valid. how else might we effect the neccesary changes?


and while i agree with you, pablo, to some extent, the old saying that 'democracy is the worst possible system of government; except for all the rest' captures a lot of truth for all its sarcastic pithiness. not playing the game, as you put it, cannot be 'success', not at the game, anyway. or am i the universal master of basketball?

this game, the government of the community in which you live, affects your/our life and we all have a stake in it. participation is the key; that and some real way to measure the desire of the community. frankly, i am not at all convinced a two party preferred system comes close, but how do we make changes?


btw, australia and argentina, from this thread, have compulsory voting - where else does?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:52 / 05.07.05
tenix if this system (democracy? voting for representation?) has ever worked, it doesn't now.

Well, I suppose it depends on how far back you are willing to go. The Labour party before the 1945 election promised what they gave us as the Welfare State. Pretty good stuff.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:57 / 05.07.05
Geoff Hoon, moved from the Ministry of Defense after the last election, has suggested compulsory voting and a none-of-the-above box.
 
 
Emerald
14:09 / 05.07.05
australia and argentina, from this thread, have compulsory voting - where else does?

In Italy voting is considered a right, so there is no fine for not doing it.
But your "informal vote" system is adopted since 1948.
In any electoral consultation, results are given, along with the parties' ones, for "white ballots" and "void ballots", i.e. for ballots without preferences and ballots marked in an improper way (often with insults, sometimes clever ones: my favorite is a slice of ham folded with the ballot so it can't be seen while putting it into the box, with the comment "You've eaten everything, eat this too!").
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
18:10 / 05.07.05
Personally, I think all failures to vote are a result of laziness, whether the individual in question will admit it or not.

Here's how lazy I am: for the last election, I followed my friend to the polling station, waited outside while he voted, helped some random people outside set up various signs and stuff, held the door for a few old ladies with umbrellas, and then followed my friend home. The entire time it was raining and by going inside and voting I would have been considerably more comfortable. I could be an unusual anomaly. Luckily, by making a silly blanket statment that "all" failures to vote are a result of laziness, you've arguably set yourself up to be proven wrong by a single counter-example.

Is it possible for not-voting to make a political difference? I would say yes:

If turnout is so low that a vote is declared
invalid, that certainly makes a powerful statement to the government - and to the world at large about your country. Even in valid elections, voter turnout numbers are a message. The lower voter turnout becomes, the more it appears to be a fundamental problem with the government and the country as a whole - not a problem with some lazy voters. If you as a candidate can't convince anyone to bother voting at all, you can't be doing that great of a job.

If not voting is such a useless thing to do then why is "abstain" a valid vote during parlimentary procedures etc? Should we force those people to vote for one thing or another? Should we not record the number of abstainees?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:12 / 05.07.05
Can I ask a question, it might derail the thread a little but I think it's relevant to the politics of choosing not to vote. If you're not voting out of something other than laziness and you dislike the system than what do you want instead? What's your preferred alternative to democracy?

At the moment I vote because I think it's the best option within this particular system but I'm not a democrat, I don't really believe that I have a valid choice in elections, certainly nothing that I can throw more than 25% of my support behind. I vote purely because I think it's better than finding myself with a party in government/local government/local council that I abhor. I have no real belief in pure democracy at all (note here that I do believe in state power and recognise that it's difficult to get *rid* of a bad party without democracy) and with that in mind I'd like to know what people who don't vote feel would actually be ideal?
 
 
jbsay
02:08 / 06.07.05
I vote because I choose not to subsidize the sham that is democracy.

My country was founded as a COnstitutional Republic, NOT a democracy. Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner (to paraphrase). Democracy is mob rule. Democracy is everyone trying to live at the expense of everyone else.

Go look up Jefferson, Franklin, Patrick Henry, et al on the issue.

I see substantially no difference between the dem's and republicans.

I think both parties are populated by thieves and murderers. I want no part of thievery or cold-blooded murder. Voting would make me an aider and abetter.

For all these reasons and more, I have never voted nor do I ever plan to
 
 
jbsay
02:20 / 06.07.05
As per Nina's question, a better situation than democracy:

pick any of the below, in no particular order
1) literally anything else. including a Mad Max free-for-all
2) anarcho-capitalism
3) constitutional republicanism-capitalism
4) constitutional monarchy

Thanks Robes-Blair. I really hope you export your ideals to the new republic, that's what we need right now. Papiere, bitte!
 
 
astrojax69
04:27 / 15.08.06
a propos of a comment upthread, i just found this and thought it was an interesting piece in nyt, advocating compulsory voting for pretty much the reasons i did... sort of...

and includes this:

In the Australian system, registered voters who do not show up at the polls either have to provide a reason for not voting or pay a modest fine, the equivalent of about $15. The fine accelerates with subsequent offenses. The result, however, is a turnout rate of more than 95 percent. The fine, of course, is an incentive to vote. But the system has also instilled the idea that voting is a societal obligation.

It has also elevated the political dialogue. Australian politicians know that all their fellow citizens, including their own partisans, their adversaries’ partisans and nonpartisans, will be at the polls. The way to gain votes does not come from working your base to fever pitch; it comes from persuading the persuadables, the centrists who are increasingly left out of the American political process. Appealing to the extremes is a formula for failure.


compulsory voting makes you have to vote 'cause if you don't then even if you're right and your opinion is one most widely held, go and prove it! get the numbers...

anyway, dunno if this thread was too dead to bump, sorry if it was...
 
 
redtara
22:19 / 22.08.06
"There are two types of politician- signposts and weather vanes. Signposts have strong beliefs. They take things and they point in a single direction, constantly going in a certain direction. Weather vanes read the focus groups and then point in the direction that they dictate. I have a lot of time for signposts- whatever their political affliction- I have no time for weather vanes." Tony Benn on BBC ident thingumy. (Gawd bless 'm)

I think British politics is riddled with weather vanes and has been since Thatcher brought in the Satchi bros. and Kinnock was humiliated.

That's why I don't vote.

There are other ways of taking part in the political life of your country. I think with more time (maybe tomorrow when I'm in work) I could make a convincing arguement for why voting is lazy, is designed to encourage laziness even.

I have nailed my colours to the mast and will be around for the public hanging around lunch time.
 
  

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