BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The many names of Fairyland

 
 
Henningjohnathan
14:15 / 08.06.04
Recently, I read mention of the "Witch's Side" as being the Wiccan term for the Spirit World? Is this simply referring to the "Other Side" or does the word Side have more significance than the obvious meaning?

What are a few of the Celtic and Shamanistic names for the other world?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:52 / 08.06.04
One of the Irish names for Faery is 'Tir na n'Og' - the one I have most commonly encountered, at any rate... I will have a look at home and see what others I can find.

Brewer's online says:

Faërie or Feerie.

The land of the fays or faeries. The chief fay realms are Avalon, an island somewhere in the ocean; Oberon’s dominions, situate “in wilderness among the holtis hairy;” and a realm somewhere in the middle of the earth, where was Pari Banou’s palace.


There may be more than this, but it is not easy to find as the wretched thing is not cross-referenced...
 
 
Aertho
16:52 / 08.06.04
Are you asking about specific "lands" where fairies are the most prominent denizen? Or any kind of Spirit realm?

I mean, you could assume that Alfheim is exactly what you're looking for, or we could get obscure like the Greek Elysium or even smart like Catholic Heaven. I mean, Oz and Alice's Wonderland are apropriate to some degree as well.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:14 / 08.06.04
I'm more interested in other worlds from the european traditions that we would most often refer to as Witchcraft. Particularly in the Celtic and related cultures.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:38 / 08.06.04
Um... I don't think your criteria make any sense. Do you mean areas where the cultures we associate with the European conception of witches? In which case there's Tir-na-nog, Annwn, the seelie and unseelie courts...stuff like that - but they come from cultures with a very diff. *culture*...

What's this for, anyway?
 
 
Henningjohnathan
22:05 / 08.06.04
I'm writing a story with an American witch at the turn of the century who is descended from Welsh immigrants who predate Columbus. I want to know what she would call or translate as the world of the Fairy. I'm not talking about all the various nations and geographies of the fairy world, but simply the idea of the other world. This would be before the modern Wiccan movement.

I'm inclined to say she'd call it the Side just because ti sounds cool, but I'm wondering if that is actually a term that Witch's use.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:32 / 08.06.04
Define "Witch".

Then retire to a safe distance--and remeber, once a definition of "Witch" has been lit, don't go back to it. It can still explode in your face.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:37 / 08.06.04
BTW: just off the top of my head, maybe you're misspelling "Sidhe" as "Side". "Sidhe" is pronounced (roughly) as "Sith"; more to the point, this spelling will probably net you more helpful search engine hits.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:50 / 09.06.04
Sidhe is, I believe, pronounced "Shee" or thereabouts?

Generally, I'd suggest researching this a bit more, or your witch is going to look a) silly and b) Irish. However, the terms you're probably looking for are Annwn, for the place, and the Plant Annwm (prounced "blant") or Twlwyth Teg.
 
 
SteppersFan
09:00 / 09.06.04
Sidhe comes up as a Wiccan* term, but I have not heard it used regularly in the circles I have frequented.

Some Wiccans use the term "Summerlands" to desribe the spirit world, as in "the other side" - i.e. where people go when they die. Some Wiccans say that only initiated Wiccans go to the Summerlands, and everyone else goes somewhere else. On the one hand, I find this intensely irritating. On the other, I've got my ticket to paradise, so fuck you, jack!

Some Wiccans, especially those of a runic inclination, use the term "wyrd". Usually while pulling a funny face.

Of course, REAL witches don't talk about this much at all, cos witchcraft is about the immanent deity of the material world and the cycle of rebirth, rather than worrying toooo much about what happens off over yonder. Other than at Sahmain, naturally.

* definition in this post: post-Gardnerian / Alexandrian initatory witchcraft. Y'know, REAL magick for REAL men. Sorry, women. And men. And small furry animals.
 
 
SteppersFan
09:12 / 09.06.04
BTW:
> I'm writing a story with an American witch at the turn
> of the century who is descended from Welsh immigrants
> who predate Columbus.

Deffo a work of fiction then.

If you can find solid evidence for groups or families of explicitly non-Christian, pagan magicians who would have identified themselves as witches, or been happy to have been described as such, in Britain, pre-1950, then your book will probably do 20,000 units no trouble and you'll make a lot of people very happy.

Cos from where the rest of us are sitting, there weren't any witches pre-1947 -- or 1927 at the earliest. I'm still waiting for a really good counter-argument on this from Max Dashu that doesn't consist of "Oral evidence needs no other support".

Cunning men and women weren't witches -- they worked for witch-finders. Who didn't find witches.

> I'm inclined to say she'd call it the Side just because
> ti sounds cool, but I'm wondering if that is actually a
> term that Witch's use.

Who cares? Wicca is a product of modern western culture and, largely, media. And it's all the better for it. In fact it's clearly superior to every other magickal system -- indeed, every other system is merely a part of the rich tapestry / stained office carpet that is Wicca. Just make it up as you go along -- you'll be much more "traditional" that way.

Oh, and my favourite word for the Spirit World is "Croydon".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:10 / 09.06.04
I think the term "witch" is causing confusion... what our writer means is a woman descended from Welsh people who found themselves in the Americas before Columbus by some means, who follows non- or pre-Christian beliefs appropriate to those Welsh roots, havng for some reason not converted, and who has some magical powers. Yes?

What "witches" would call the spirit world is irrelevant to this enquiry, as, as 2stepfan points out, you don't really get self-avowed "witches" in 19th-century America. Unless he means turn of *this* century, in which case a "witch" might use any old new-age bollocks to describe fairyland, but since he says this predates modern Wicca this seems unlikely. The Welsh land of shadow remains Annwn, although it may not be the sort of fairyland the writer is looking for.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:19 / 09.06.04
Oh, and my favourite word for the Spirit World is "Croydon".

That's some scary magic you're talking about there, mate. I wouldn't fancy working with that stuff.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:20 / 09.06.04
I've also heard rumour of Bast worship in the ancient city of Catford.
 
 
SteppersFan
14:49 / 09.06.04
Hah. Catford's for pussies.

There's some serious Sirius worship on the isle of...



... Man.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:00 / 09.06.04
How's about shee-field, then?
 
 
Henningjohnathan
16:34 / 09.06.04
Ahh.. Sidhe makes sense. Basically, this story was inspired by a group of odd occurances in my home county (and surrounding parts) in Kentucky. Back when I was younger, there were groups of backwoods people called Witchers who were practiced in herbal medicine and divination (grave finding, water finding, etc). Lately, they've all seemed to have disappeared (possibly due to the influx of New Age Pagans and Satanists in the area).

However, one of these people, Leah Smock from the early 1800's, is a famous "Blair Witch" style ghost in the area with whom I and my family have had more than a few run-ins.

Also, stones were found engraved with Welsh runes that date back way before Columbus. This is part of the Prince Madoc and Mandan Indian legend that pops up on occassion.

Also, I've got enough strange stories about Ohio River valley UFO's and Spectres (ala MOTHMAN PROPHECIES) to fill a volume on the subject.

However, I'm not necessarily that interested in the reality of the ideas, but the implicit "ring of truth." The idea is that the "witchers" of the legendary Welsh colonists were folk magicians, shamans, who interacts with the inexplicable spirits of the new world.
 
 
grant
16:43 / 09.06.04
* "Summerland" I think is a name taken from the Spiritualists.

* Is Sidhe a place, or just the people? I thought it was just the people, but understand that sometimes names can be both.

* You could have some fun with the Irish concept of Hy Breasil, maybe. I know it was thought of as a magic land over the western sea, but I'm not sure if it was specifically "Fairyland." It's where Brazil gets its name, though, I'm pretty sure.
 
 
SteppersFan
19:58 / 09.06.04
How's about shee-field, then?

Very nice, thank you, Abs.

Of course, the common derivation of the word Sheffield -- "the sheep field" -- is wrong and, frankly, slightly naive. "Sheffield" can be best be construed as "The land of Sheila-na-gig", or "Sheila's field". This refers to the Olde Englishe acre of holy land now occupied by the Cathedral, which was the site of hundreds of goddess shrines (and mediaeval fast food emporia) right up to the Reformation.

It lies perfectly geomantically placed within a septangle formed by the seven holy mountains of Sheffield. An immense network of secret tunnels connects this omphalos with what later became the old castle, the site of John Lewis (famous for being built on a haunted stone-circle-cum-sacred-highway) and the tobacconists on the end of Division Street -- a location whose provenance and history has never been satisfactorily researched. "The Sheeee Field"'s obvious past as a temple of sacred prostitutes continues to resonate when, past 8 o'clock, it becomes a haven for streetwalkers -- a cruel patriarchal irony.

Sheffield's incredible occult history lives on with the nickname of one of its football* teams -- the Hashishim-inspired "Red and White Wizards", or United -- and the hermetic design of Meadowhall, long known to be a druid grove, which is now a transcendental maze of commerce.

Next week: the story of Dore - a village entirely enclosed by a vast stone circle, which was Britain's first capital city, and is now a leafy Sheffield suburb famous for its peripatetic ducks and haunted social centre.

* two sided, not three-sided, obviously.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:15 / 09.06.04
I have got to visit england soon. That is just an amazing bit of information.

Thanks to everyone. This has been very helpful. I'm basically trying to figure out the imaginative history of a group of Welsh in 1170 who interact with the spirits of the Eastern American woods. In the works of Eliade and others I see that a lot of cultures come up with similar responses to explain and deal with the "other world." I want something particular, but with a touch of what's come before.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:59 / 09.06.04
Ahh.. Sidhe makes sense.

If your Welsh people are Irish.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:02 / 09.06.04
The Hosting of the Sidhe

The host is riding from Knocknarea
And over the grave of Clooth-na-Bare;
Caoilte tossing his burning hair,
And Niamh calling Away, come away:
Empty your heart of its mortal dream.
The winds awaken, the leaves whirl round,
Our cheeks are pale, our hair is unbound,
Our breasts are heaving our eyes are agleam,
Our arms are waving our lips are apart;
And if any gaze on our rushing band,
We come between him and the deed of his hand,
We come between him and the hope of his heart.
The host is rushing 'twixt night and day,
And where is there hope or deed as fair?
Caoilte tossing his burning hair,
And Niamh calling Away, come away.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
22:03 / 09.06.04
No. I meant that what I was referring to in the first post was "Sidhe" rather than "Side." It doesn't make sense for the Welsh.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:43 / 10.06.04
Ah.... got it. I thought for a moment we were going to have to have the Celtic talk.

Sidhe could be the beauty or the beast...
 
 
Sobek
06:18 / 10.06.04

Elfhame/Elphame
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:37 / 10.06.04
If your Welsh people are Scottish.
 
 
BARISKIL666
22:56 / 10.06.04
Sidhe(pronounced shee)in the Irish term for fairies(probably the Scotch as well.)Traditionally here in Ireland one of the main names of the fairy land was "the otherworld"
Daresay my memory's playing tricks on me,but was "mittlemarch" the German term for it??
 
 
Henningjohnathan
18:58 / 11.06.04
I think Mittelmarch is what Moorcock refers to as the land between the human and the faerie in the Elric novels, right?
 
  
Add Your Reply