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Staying the Hell Away

22:27 / 06.06.04

In another thread, a few people mentioned that they no longer felt comfortable going to the United States, due to security restrictions and such.
I have always wanted to go to America to "see for myself" so to speak. Because of the recent changes in America, the handing over of information to the American authorities etc. I have begun wondering if maybe I should just put that idea on hold.
Seeing as other people apparently have similar feelings, I would like to ask all Barbelithians, Would you travel to america now?
And if you already live there, are you planning to leave?

02:04 / 07.06.04

I live in America. I can tell you that it's really not as bad as you're making it out to be. We are, afterall, a democracy, and so even the patriot act hasn't made us the worst place on earth. If you do decide to come to the US, I recomend NY. It's probably among the last beacons of hope here, in that you can see a protest every couple of miles. Whatever you do, don't go to the deep south... they lynch foreners. Hell, they lynch just about anybody!

(sorry if I don't make any sense, I'm a bit drunk at the moment)

03:11 / 07.06.04

Actually, traveling from a communist totalitarian state (People's Republic of China) back to the United States last January was a bit of an eye-opener in some ways. Not only was most of the paperwork from the American side, but the worst airport security (in terms of lag time, people getting frisked, taking off your freakin' shoes to go through the detector like an aerosol can on the conveyor belts in a WD-40 factory) was American too. I mean, in China, they just let you get off the plane on the tarmac and kind of hoped you got on the bus taking you to the terminal.

So, from a practical standpoint, it's less hassle to go to China.

08:14 / 07.06.04

Tricky. If you've never been before, I would recommend it even now. There are an awful lot of things you need to experience first hand to get an understanding of why the US is both fantastic and awful. I love the States in many ways, and despite what you may hear in the meeja, they are some of the nicest, most welcoming and well educated people in the world. Unfortunately in order for them to be able to be this way, there are a lot of seriously fucked up systems in place.
Go at least once. I won't be coming with you any time soon, though.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:04 / 07.06.04

I'd go. George Bush may be a loon, but the U.S. is a good place with good people in it and arguably the most democratic system of government on Earth - even if, right now, that system is a bit wonky. On the other hand I'm white and male and rich, so I know nothing.

Irony of Ironies

10:03 / 07.06.04

I travel there at least twice a year. So yeah, I would.

10:32 / 07.06.04

If you're worried about data protection I would go *now* rather than when CAPPS 2, US-VISIT etc are fully implemented. You don't even need to have your picture and fingerprints taken at the moment if you're on a visa waiver (i.e. a tourist).

Also, data protection is more of an issue if you're actually *living* in a country - if some data gets out about you in a place that you're not going back to, it doesn't really affect you much.

I'd be more worried about Mr Blunkett's plans to spray you with laser scanners.

10:35 / 07.06.04

I'm from the Great Satan; I've lived overseas 5 years and, though I go back about twice a year, *I'm* starting to get a weird picture of the place. But it's hard to generalize about almost 300 million people. Applying Sturgeon's Law still leaves 30 million decent types. Any furriner who's got a friend in the US will mostly encounter the latter. Sure, we're the land of fun and death, but a lot of variety. $1=0.55 pounds or 0.82 euros; even the infamous $2.50 a gallon / $0.75 per liter is still cheap by EU standards.

This prmotion brought to you by the U.S. Generation X Tourist Board.

Texas is already way too hot, but it's the only place in the world to get decent BBQ and Tex-Mex (by definition).

>;-)

18:29 / 07.06.04

Well, my first request is that you not judge us by 1) any given administration or 2) drunken posters who don't realize the difference between a republic(which we are) and a democracy(aren't).

Also, the 'deep south' so elequently referred to by same, is not to be stereotypified, either. While NYC is without doubt one of the greatest places on earth, it is hardly the last bastion of rational thought in the 'free world.' If one is dead set on quantifying the worth of a locale based on protest alone, my dear Austin, TX, would rank as one hell of a place to be. You can't throw a lynching rope without hitting a protest or demonstration on any given day. And, gee whiz, in the the SOUTH. Who knew?

Seriously, I hope that 'foreign' visitors do continue to visit the States, so that they can get a true feel for the people and culture. I know I was much more ignorant about other cultures than I could have ever known until I started travelling abroad.

Rant over!

18:59 / 07.06.04

well that's true, Austin is probably "safe to visit." The thing is, it doens't feel at all like Texas. It feels more like a northern city, plus lots of cactus and sombrero chatchkeys.

19:15 / 07.06.04

they are some of the nicest, most welcoming and well educated people in the world.

This has been my experience when I've been to America as well -I've not travelled very widely there (been to CA, Mass., and Michigan), but I've like the people and been made to feel welcome everywhere I've been.

In terms of security, the last time I went over there I was stopped at the airport when I arrived, had my bag searched, and was questioned for about half an hour -which wasn't long, but it was pretty unpleasant while it lasted since I really didn't expect it. Mind you, that was because they thought I was going there to get married and stay rather than because they thought I was a dangerous terrorist, so I don't know what effect these new measures will have.

23:29 / 07.06.04

The major things I'll take back from living in the US are

- Americans are pretty much like everyone else, mostly nice and friendly, some arseholes, mostly concerned with their own day-to-day shit but if you come from somewhere else, curious as to what your life is like and what you think about them - you know, just like normal people

- the US govt and media does a good job of pretending that everyone in the country agrees with them, and that everyone lives the same sort of life, whereas in fact that's not true, everywhere has its own individual culture

- the TV really is that shit

There's not anything to be scared of. You're not going to be followed around by the FBI if you're just coming over as a tourist and you don't have some sort of record. Plus the exchange rate is good right now. Well, good for you, bad for me.

13:56 / 08.06.04

All in all, the new security measures probably make it a bit of a hassle to get through the airports, but if you're concerned about government control, you're probably better off as a visitor than actually living here. And there are still many good reasons to visit.

Hubby and I and a few friends have been talking about moving to Canada or the UK for a year or so now, but I don't think it's gonna happen. A bit attached to Austin, I'm afraid (and I do adore the fact that it's already come up in this thread)...

Besides, if all the people who are interested in living free lives in a free country expatriate themselves as soon as things start getting a little oppressive, who's going to carry on the fight? Things won't get better that way. I'm at least sticking around to see what heppens when a Gen-X president gets elected...

15:34 / 08.06.04

i live in the US, and even though i'm freaked out by the long-term political prospects of living here, it's totally OK to visit, for the most part. we don't have jackbooted troops marching the streets or anything. come visit!

Irony of Ironies

08:43 / 09.06.04

America is 300 million people who have a bigger influence over the rest of the world than, erm, the rest of the world combined. If you want to change the world, understand America. And if you want to understand America, go there and take a look!
In terms of data protection: If the spooks want to know about you, they already know EVERYTHING about you.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:05 / 09.06.04

I've only been there the once, and I had a wonderful time. All the people I met were pretty much the same as anywhere else- I didn't speak to a single one who actually supported Bush. (Okay, so pretty much everyone I met was either a friend or relative of mono's or a 'lither). Especially in New York, strangers seemed far more likely to just randomly start conversations with you than in uptight old London. And I didn't get shot once.
I had no problems at the airport- the guy was very cool and let me go through the US Citizens gate with mono because there was a big queue while people got fingerprinted in the other one. Although he did take the piss out of my hair.
And everyone seemed inordinately confused by my use of the word "cheers".
But yeah. The TV is that shit.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

21:44 / 10.06.04

Also, the 'deep south' so elequently referred to by same, is not to be stereotypified, either.

Goddam right! The south rules. Jeff Foxworthy and W. Bush make us look like retards.

While NYC is without doubt one of the greatest places on earth, it is hardly the last bastion of rational thought in the 'free world.'

Damn straight. Come to Detroit, where nobody has any respect for the law or authority of any kind. Even the police get robbed up here. Hell, sometimes the police are doing the robbing. Now that's free thinking.

unheimlich manoeuvre

11:14 / 11.06.04

I like to think of myself as an open-mided liberal but all that stuff about biometric data gives me the fear and i don't want any hassle.
I went to NYC in the summer of 2000. stayed in the Upper West in my friends job sponsored apartment. I now know that that part of NYC is snobby but i didn't find the people there any more friendly than in London.

Plan on going to northern California to visit an old ex in autumn this year. I think she lives a few hours drive east of Sacramento. Anyone give me an idea what north California is like? Is it travelling weather in fall/autumn? Am i gonna be lynched for insulting the Governator?

21:02 / 11.06.04

My concerns are how much information the various agencies are going to store about me, where that information is going and what they intend to use it for. The whole "only criminals and terrorists need be afraid" doesn't comfort me much. First, I don't believe it for a moment. Second, It is entirely possible that I might in the future do something which would get me labelled as a terrorist. After all, exercising freedom of speech seems to be enough in some instances, both in America and in Europe.
I am generally concerned about the direction America is headed. I know that Bush doesn't represent America as a whole, but he's still the president, right? Also, I'm worried about how much of it will rub off on my own country.

I would really like to experience america first-hand, and most likely nothing would happen if I went. Still, I just can't seem to shake the paranoia. I can't help but wondering, why do they need to know what kind of food I ate on the plane? Will I be stopped and searched if I ask for a halal meal?

21:45 / 11.06.04

Dude. Where do you live right now? Is it the UK? CCTV Heaven, where Blunkett wants to introduce a national ID card - something that even Reagan dismissed with "maybe we should just brand all babies"? Seriously, unless you've been amazingly careful with your information, it's all out there, and being disseminated to the US government through mutinationals *anyway*.

Okay, if you are really, really devoted to information privacy you won't want to go to the US. The immigration procedures are just an additional avenue for information to leak out. But right now, you don't have to give any particular biometric information if you're on a visa waiver. Your passport number will be logged, your passport will be stamped etc, but that's about it.

There seems to be this idea going round that the US has some sort of general attitude of Bush-worship and paranoia. This isn't really true. Go anywhere and you'll find people who'll say in no uncertain terms that the government is lying to them, screwing them, killing innocent people, spending money on bombs that could go on healthcare, and so on. Christ, on the shuttle bus to my place of work the other day, a bunch of us including the driver had a big long conversation where the statement "Bush is a bastard" was generally lauded. When my dad, who is not exactly unforthcoming with his opinions on politics, came over last year, we were beseiged with people shaking their heads and apologising for their president. I can give you dozens of examples.

Sure, the government may be pushing for pretty much every power it can get, and the media may be backing them up, but this is not representative of the actual people who live in the country. Unless, as I have theorised, I generate some sort of socialist mind control ray.