BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Ray Bradbury and 911

 
 
■
13:34 / 04.06.04
Now, this might all be a big bad lie, but doesn't this make Ray Bradbury look like a bit of a pimhole?
 
 
Sax
14:06 / 04.06.04
Shpoof, shurely?
 
 
_Boboss
15:17 / 04.06.04
don't think sho.

heard aboout this in the paper a couple of weeks ago around the time of the whole mickey kicked my ass debacle.

like most aged SF authors bradbury's politics are in all likelihoood only very slightly to the left of adolf hitler.

eggy bugger innee?
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:25 / 04.06.04
Damn, Bradbury does come off as a dick.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:08 / 04.06.04
You think he's a dick? But... he's influenced American literature over the last 50 years!
 
 
Ganesh
20:21 / 04.06.04
He has. But he comes across like an arsebandage.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:18 / 05.06.04
Hardly surprising, really--and I think it reflects a real generational divide in attitudes towards intellectual property and copyright.

SF writers of a certain age, in particular, seem to be marked by a shared set of formative experiences--of having to work enormously hard, churning out quality material in volume, just to make a living, in the days when the short-story magazines were about the only outlet for SF, when you could rarely count on your work being collected, and unscrupulous publishers cut deals that often left you having to buy back the rights to your own work.

So it's not just Bradbury--and he's hardly the most extreme in his views. Recently-unearthed correspondence shows that Kubrick and Clarke fulminated over Space: 1999: and to hear Harlan Ellison tell the tale, every time you read one of his stories for free on the Internet, you're snatching food right out of a poor old man's mouth.

Also: even people who largely agree with Michael Moore's politics have been known to think that he can be, y'know, kind of a schmuck.
 
 
Ganesh
00:27 / 05.06.04
I don't think it's Bradbury's attitude to the 'theft' of his title that makes him look petty, or even his thoughts about Moore, particularly. It's more the 'nobody will see his film, the prize is meaningless, the French only gave him it because they hate us' stuff that's kinda beneath him.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:04 / 05.06.04
Yeah, well. Ray can be kind of a schmuck, too.

What's interesting, reading between the lines, is that Ray seems to be pissed at Mike at least in part because (as Ray sees it) Mike ruined Wesley Clark's shot at the presidency. Which kinda shoots down Gambit's all-too-pat "Ray is a right-wing crank" thesis.

I dunno. It doesn't fatally taint the film for me, but really, it only serves to take my personal opinion of Michael Moore down another notch. What, in the end, would it have cost him to call Bradbury's office and get a clearance? Some relatively small licensing fee and a ten-second full-screen title card, e.g., "Special thanks to Ray Bradbury, whose novel Fahrenheit 451 stands as a beacon of warning in these dire times of blah blah fishcakes." It's common courtesy: it's the cost of doing business: it's part of being a stand-up guy.

The ethos of being a stand-up guy is an important part of Mike's message, and every time he does something stupid or self-serving like this, it's more blood in the water for his critics. It's like the revelation that "Book of Virtues" author Bill Bennett has a gambling problem--it doesn't necessarily undercut his message in the absolute, but the appearance of hypocrisy discredits the messenger.

Let me tell you a story from another medium. Years ago, Lyle Lovett wrote a song called "What Do You Do," and in its closing lines the lyric copped a structure from a famous country song, "The Glory of Love," which ends

That's the story of
That's the glory of love


Lyle's lines went "That's the story of / that's the glory of What Do You Do." Now, "What Do You Do" doesn't actually sound anything like "The Glory of Love"--their melodies are entirely different. And Lyle wasn't actually quoting directly from the song. Legally, he was free and clear to use the rhyme.

But Lyle called thepublishers of "The Glory of Love" anyway, to give them a heads-up. And they asked for half the royalties and a co-writing credit, and insisted that the song's title appear on the track listing as "What Do You Do / The Glory of Love."

And Lyle gave them all that without complaint, because he was raised to honor his elders and to do business like a gentleman.

Does Ray Bradbury come off as a pissy, thin-skinned, sour-grapes-ing jackass in that interview? Yep. But in this case he's more siunned against than sinning, thinks I.
 
 
■
14:22 / 05.06.04
Well, to quote Grandpa Simpson:
"In those days I was full of piss and vinegar. Nowadays, mostly vinegar..."
Fahreheit 451 was the very first adult book I ever read, and Bradbury was very important to my teenage years. Have a look around the rest of the site, and it's the sort of thing Ann Coulter would admire. I think they probably hacked a long interview into a few little snips so they can keep bashing Moore.
I have met Moore, and despite my huge admiration for his work, the man is an obnoxious twat.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
20:48 / 05.06.04
sure, just because he's on this lame little rant about Moore doesn't make Bradbury a right wing crank.

however, the stuff he tends to say all the rest of the time does.


Bradbury: Well, it’s very optimistic. Look what’s happened in the last eight months. Because America stood firm, and helped form NATO, and just stayed quietly there, finally the communists gave up. They were an evil empire; you know, Reagan was absolutely right. And they partially still are because they haven’t finished disarming.
            But who could have foreseen that the end would have come so quickly? And within just a matter of months. We said take down the wall. We implied it many times. Only one president ever said it: Reagan. He’s not going to get any credit for it. Everyone hates him for being successful. He’ll probably go down in history as the most important president of the century. Because he did in the Communist Empire. Just by holding steady and being very quiet. And when the Communists left the negotiating table three or four years ago, everyone said, “Oh, President Reagan, don’t do that,” you know, “call them back.” He said, “They’ll be back. They have to come back. Because their economy isn’t working, so if we just, if we’re not belligerent, don’t take advantage of it, don’t rock the boat, they’ll be back. And eventually the Wall will come down.” And that’s exactly what happened. So two weeks ago the Russians welcomed Reagan to Moscow, huh? Because he helped them get free of their own system. It’s ironic. It’s beautiful. And the one president we thought would never be able to do this is the one who did it.


Couteau: How about the opening of the East Bloc? How will that affect science fiction writing?

Bradbury: I don’t think it will affect it much. Because we’re running ahead of all that. We’ve always talked about freedom; we’ve always talked about totalitarian governments. After all, Fahrenheit 451 is all about Russia, and all about China, isn’t it? And all about the totalitarians anywhere, either left or right, doesn’t matter where they are; they’re book burners, all of them. And so Fahrenheit will continue to be a read book, by people all over the world, ‘Cause there are still totalitarian governments.  And book burners. So as long as that’s true, or if the threat is true, the book will be read.

see that -- F451 is not in his mind a warning about America's possible future or a veiled critisicsm of the US at all. It's "all about Russian..." because they werre "an evil empire."


golly gee.

interview from here
 
 
Mystery Gypt
20:53 / 05.06.04
sorry, in case anyone needs more obviously context, that interview is from 1990.

he's right wing, not senile.
 
 
■
23:18 / 05.06.04
Shit. I was so hoping it was out of context. Obviously the fascist rag that published the story got a call from him, not the other way round.
Still, we now get the chance to see if anyone really will call him the most important prez in the 20th century, won't we?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:44 / 06.06.04
These two statements: He’s not going to get any credit for it.

and He’ll probably go down in history as the most important president of the century.

are in the same paragraph.

Bradbury is coming across as a bit of (well, a lot of) a prick. As Moore does a lot of the time.

I just find it sad that people whose work I admire (and yes, Bradbury was a very important influence on the young Stoatie... he's one of the classic skiffy writers I'll always go back to) are being so petty- RB for worrying about this, and MM for, as Jack says, not having the common courtesy to return a phone call.

The fact that I totally disagree with what I've seen so far of Bradbury's views doesn't make him any less a great writer than Wagner's anti-Semitism made him a shit composer (yeah, I know, been done to death in other threads before, but it IS my opinion on this).
 
 
Mystery Gypt
15:52 / 06.06.04
his skill and impact as a writer isn't really at issue here. i think we're just trying to make sense of why he would be so hostile about the Moore film. from the contextual evidence i've seen, the answer to that would be that he has a political agenda, not an intellectual-property agenda. i'm willing to be that if someone made a film called Dandelion Wine about how Reagan kicked ass, Bradbury wouldnt be complaining.

this doesn't at all affect his status as "great writer" and isn't meant to villainize him. i enjoy the art, music, films, and books of total assholes on a regular basis. but it is key to 1) not be delusioned by the art as to the disposition of the artist and 2) because of the volitile and dangerous state of "intellectual property" these days, its important that we recognize the political agendas that OFTEN accompany IP debates.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
19:33 / 06.06.04
I've always been more of Philip K Dick fan, anyway.

And Moore's 'Through the WhiteHouse Darkly' will probably be seen by no one.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:56 / 06.06.04
ee that -- F451 is not in his mind a warning about America's possible future or a veiled critisicsm of the US at all. It's "all about Russian..." because they werre "an evil empire."

This interpretation is likely "in his mind" because the guy actually, you know, wrote the book. And guess what? Russia did have some history of totalitarianism.

doesn't make him any less a great writer than Wagner's anti-Semitism made him a shit composer

Since when was criticising Michael Moore's work equivalent to anti-semitism? Is he really that good?
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
20:30 / 06.06.04
Since when was criticising Michael Moore's work equivalent to anti-semitism? Is he really that good?

Please let that be a sarcastic, rhetorical question.

The point was about an artist's politics not invalidating their art. Stoatie wasn't paralelling Moore and persecuted Jews, but Bradbury and Wagner as artists who he happens to disagree with, but whose works he will continue to appreciate.

Jesus, does everything need to be spelled out in the clearest possible terms?

Actually, I guess it does. Eh.
 
 
Linus Dunce
20:49 / 06.06.04
Actually, Stoatie was paralleling Moore and persecuted Jews. In the same sentence. He was making a comparison and finding them equivalent. That's called making a parallel. Paralleling. Do you see?
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
21:29 / 06.06.04
Actually, Stoatie was paralleling Moore and persecuted Jews. In the same sentence. He was making a comparison and finding them equivalent. That's called making a parallel. Paralleling. Do you see?

Let us check that claim, shall we, o sarcastic one?

The fact that I totally disagree with what I've seen so far of Bradbury's views doesn't make him any less a great writer than Wagner's anti-Semitism made him a shit composer.

Wow, there's not a mention of Moore in that paragraph! Nor is Moore's involvement implied, as the comparison is made between Bradbury's [political] views (which Stoatie seems to have read more of than simply the Moore article. It's implied.) and Wagner's anti-semitism.

That's the parallel. See what reading can do for you?

I'm so glad we had this little talk.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:37 / 06.06.04
Yeah, I wasn't actually referring to Moore at all with that bit.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:47 / 06.06.04
Jesus, does everything need to be spelled out in the clearest possible terms?

Actually, I guess it does. Eh.


See, when you swear at people, they get angry and make mistakes. I misread Stoat's words. Would it have killed you to answer in the same fashion as Stoat himself just has? No.

I'm not glad we had this little talk. I think you're a prat. But at least now you can spell parallel.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
22:20 / 06.06.04
See, when you swear at people, they get angry and make mistakes. I misread Stoat's words. Would it have killed you to answer in the same fashion as Stoat himself just has? No.

Don't blame me for your mistakes, okay?

Wasn't actually sniping at you, but if you paint a target on yourself, then reply in an arsey manner to what was a musing and not an attack, expect some slightly snarky comments. Forum-folk are always quick to jump on people's comparisons, and I find it nit-picky and irritating. Like picking on a person's spelling.

Still, take it with a pinch of salt, ok? Calm down.

I'm not glad we had this little talk. I think you're a prat.

Really? Okay. I don't think you're a prat, but I appreciate your candor.

But at least now you can spell parallel.

Okay, now that's nit-picky again, but I close my mouth in favor of blessed silence.

I'd have found that funnier (and I did laugh) if it hadn't been about a spelling error.

Hell, would you like me to spellcheck your posts for the next couple of days? Because I'm sure you'd make a slip somewhere... :P

Despite that, I still don't think you're a prat.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
22:23 / 06.06.04
See, when you swear at people, they get angry and make mistakes.

Unless you consider 'Jesus' swearing (which some do) I didn't swear at you.

Just picking nits.
 
 
■
23:02 / 06.06.04
I have no idea what you are talking about any more.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
23:19 / 06.06.04
I have no idea what you are talking about any more.

Hail Eris.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:26 / 07.06.04
Has anyone mentioned that "Farenheit 9/11" is a stupid, nearly meaningless title for a movie?
 
 
_Boboss
12:55 / 07.06.04
not really. looks to me like we're meant to assume 9/11 is the 'heat' at which the bush government will burn. piece o poo.
 
 
HCE
20:42 / 07.06.04
Tahddd, you moron, you're missing an 'h' Fahrenheit.
 
 
eddie thirteen
03:31 / 08.06.04
Well...

Speaking as someone who, like Stoatie, loves Bradbury's work and isn't really willing to change his opinion on that score, I admit to being a little disheartened by Bradbury's expressed views, but not all THAT surprised. Bradbury is a fantasist in more ways than one...if you read a book like (best example) Dandelion Wine, which I believe Bradbury has referred to as having been autobiographical, it's very clearly an idyllic and hugely idealized portrait of small town life...which is, generally speaking, representative of Bradbury's consistent characterization of small town America. Though he (very bravely) wrote some excellent stories about the evils of racism -- and I don't mean allegorical tales about blue and green aliens here, I mean stories about how fucked up the idea of rednecks lynching southern blacks was at a time when lynching was still a frighteningly common practice -- I think it's clear that he never connected those evils with the "good old days" USA that Bradbury (for whatever reason) seems to believe did actually once exist in the real world. In short, for all his insight into human nature -- and I would say it's there, in the best of his fiction -- it might be safe to say that Ray Bradbury is now and always has been just a little bit...uh...naive.

Because this naivete is reflective of optimism, I find it forgivable. I find it even more forgivable when I consider that 1990 was a time when Bush I had something horrifying like a 90% approval rating. Bush I rode to office on the coattails of the most popular president to that point in American history, too. It's easy to say that no one with a working brain would have voted for Reagan or Bush I (or Bush II, for that matter), but that makes for WAY more stupid motherfuckers than I want to contemplate. And really, it's way more stupid motherfuckers than even seems plausible to someone as jaded as me.

Which means that a lot of people were taken in by the Reagan/Bush promises of a return to an idealized American past. Since Bradbury believes that such a past did once exist, this is exactly the kind of rhetoric that might appeal to him. As well as a HELL of a lot of other people. Who, for the most part, know very little about American history, but know somehow that things couldn't possibly have always sucked THIS bad.

True, people who appraise themselves of the facts behind the bullshit won't buy it, but...well...those people have always been in the minority. It's much easier to believe in a benevolent leader over here and an evil empire over there, especially when you're an incredibly rich and well-beloved author. It gels with the worldview of an optimist whose efforts are rewarded. I'm sure that if Bradbury were to seriously investigate politics and history, his opinions might change; I'm sure this is equally true of many, many supposed conservatives. But they don't make this inquiry, because they don't see the point, and because they have other things to do.

This, however, does not keep them from talking about subjects about which they know essentially nothing.

And, unfortunately, when those people are celebrities -- even minor celebrities like canonized authors (as opposed to major celebrities, like JLo and Britney Spears) -- those poorly-informed utterances are sometimes recorded and taken WAY more seriously than they should be.

So, basically, what I'm saying here is I don't think Ray Bradbury is a nutty right-winger. I think Ray Bradbury kinda just doesn't know shit about politics. I think he's too busy thinking about life on Mars, or life a century ago, to really know all that much about contemporary issues. So it's really too bad that someone asked him to talk about them, because ignorance stops almost no one from forming an opinion. And virtually nothing can stop a writer from talking about himself.

Speaking of which, perhaps if Michael Moore were slightly less of a self-absorbed, self-promoting asshole, he might have thought to, yes, return the call of the living author whose title he was borrowing. I don't think Bradbury has a case for plagiarism here (titles can't be copyrighted), and I think Moore, knowing that, decided what the fuck. Which is kind of a prickish decision for him to have made. It's common courtesy.
 
  
Add Your Reply