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Underground > Temple >

The Derren Brown 'seance' experiment

20:51 / 31.05.04

Wasn't sure whether to post this in Films/Television (where there's already a thread on Derren Brown), Conversation or here. Reckoned here was most appropriate.

As I speak, the UK's best-known "psychological illusionist" is just about to conduct some sort of nationwide 'seance'. Although both somewhat sceptical, we've got the alphabet cards, wine glass and pen & paper at the ready.

Anyone else doing this? I'd be interested to hear about people's experiences...

22:16 / 31.05.04

P'shaw. Wineglass barely moved at all, I was thinking of 'Keith' and 'LIVERPOOL'.

Hoped some of you more flexible magick types might channel something more interesting...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:00 / 01.06.04

I heard this was happening, but I had to get pissed and watch DVDS and eat crisps during the specified timeframe. It was urgent. No dead people talked to me, unless they were telling me to drink more booze and eat more crisps.

Um.

Look, if Paul Daniels told us to have a seance, would we have to stop eating crisps and muck about with glasses? Eh? EH?

00:34 / 01.06.04

Being super-efficient multi-taskers, we managed to juggle crisp-eating and failing to contact ghosts of suggestibility. At one point, the smaller of our cats jumped onto the table and disrupted our oija circle, but neither of us could summon sufficient dopaminergic twitchiness to read much significance into this.

It was quite reasonably done, actually, in that he was fairly open about it all being achieved through the power of suggestion, blah de blah. His coven of twelve students seemed to have been hand-picked for screaminess. And well-conditioned hair.

10:08 / 01.06.04

Hmm. I saw the show and thought it very cleverly done. Although there were no stooges or actors involved – the people he was using were as good as. He says he wants open suggestible people and that’s what they were.

So far so good. The setting of the experiment as well as the back story were integral in creating the myth of Jane. After a few warm up sessions, he really went to town – and frankly I think he completely debunked the whole séance thing.

Tuning into Jane’s photo was a clever trick of organising us and telling us where to move. Not sure how it was done but I’ve seen this sort of thing before. Essentially, if you follow his instructions correctly, you will have picked her no matter who you started with. I picked Jane. (I also wrote London). This bit did make me think though was why they all had polaroids of themselves close up like that. Very convenient.

The bit that really irked me was why none of the 12 acolytes thought it strange that a girl who’d committed suicide in what 1974? had a home video on DVD! (especially with her looking so haunted and creepy music to boot!).

Seeing him do this sort of thing, makes me wonder why anyone believes in it. Okay, granted: him proving his séance doesn’t prove they’re all like that but it is fairly reasonable to assume this no? For example when he explained why the glass moved, that it was the participants moving it but they didn’t know they were. (Can’t remember the scientific name for it.)

10:13 / 01.06.04

The ideomotor effect.

10:35 / 01.06.04

Theres a good invterview with Mr Brown in this months Fortean Times.
He gives "real" magick a very wide burth (as he himself states"I find it all rather dodgey").

I do like these kinds of programmes as it makes people question when going to mediums etc. And hopefully become more aware of methods of reading (cold, hiding obvious signs etc ).

Ensuring people get at least a rather good body language read by someone who at least believes their giving someone some useful advise ;-).

15:00 / 01.06.04

I didn't watch it becasue, frankly, I have no interest in watching Seance's being debunked. Some people don't believe in it. Grand. I don't care.
This was entertainemnt, though, wasn't it? I mean, he wasn't actually having a seance? I assume he was maniulating the people (and the audience) into getting whatever message he wanted?

18:16 / 01.06.04

Careful: you're verging on having an interest in it...

Yes, it was entertainment too. It was well done generally.

rising and revolving

14:28 / 02.06.04

Seeing him do this sort of thing, makes me wonder why anyone believes in it. Okay, granted: him proving his séance doesn’t prove they’re all like that but it is fairly reasonable to assume this no?

Really? I mean, I used to think this. Then I realised what a load of bunk it actually is. The logical link between "I achieved this through trickery," and "therefore it cannot be achieved in any fashion EXCEPT trickery," isn't present. Neither is there any reason to believe it should be, as far as I can tell.

But nonetheless, skeptics pass it off as truth with enough misdirection and sleight of hand to make even the greatest stage magician proud.

16:47 / 02.06.04

Anyone remember Ghostwatch?

Couldn't get it out of my head whilst watching it and maybe this ruined the effect, but hey it was kind of entertaining.

23:14 / 02.06.04

It was good fun, I thought.

Ghostwatch is came out on DVD a couple of months ago. I'd like to see it agagin.

And just a note to the poster who asked why the 1970s home movies were on DVD - DB clearly said that the production team had had them "transfered" on to DVD - so no mystery or mistake there.

07:41 / 03.06.04

liked this, very entertaining, but agree with the poster who said that just because it CAN be done by trickery doen't follow that it always it

found it a pleasant antidote to the rampant supernaturalism in mass medias these days.

never fail to be impressed by his abilty to read and manipulate people though, and this was pretty much business as usual but with a bit more theatre, and you know what, i think he has developed a bit of a sense of humour too,

anyone know any good on-line resources about how he does all that reading stuff? like an insiders guide to NLP?

andrew

08:25 / 03.06.04

You might want to do a websearch on "cold reading" - that's the term in the trade, so to speak. I've got a mate who does it, I'll ask him if he's got any recomedations.

It kind of reminds me of what I know about spiritualist churches - another friend was in a "spirtualist development circle", that's the bit where you learn to be a medium - apparently a lot of it works on this kind of cold reading and bits of manipulation - that's what I saw the only time I went - but occasionally "the spirit moves 'em". The fine line between the two is a bit hazy.

08:32 / 03.06.04

One faced Janus:
The logical link between "I achieved this through trickery," and "therefore it cannot be achieved in any fashion EXCEPT trickery," isn't present. Neither is there any reason to believe it should be, as far as I can tell.

Why do you think this? The logical link (whilst not necessarily there - as mentioned in my previous post), isn't present and there is no reason to believe is should be as far as you can tell?

What?!

It is reasonable to doubt something which is similar to something which seemed real and was proved false, no matter how genuine people think it is.

I'd be interested to know wht you think that this experiment is a one off? Why you think that there is no reason to postulate other séances might be similarly false.

12:17 / 03.06.04

I didn't watch it but I think Derren Brown is a great TV entertainer. Great combo of popcorn thrills and headfuckery.

I'm not surprised he gives "magick" a wide berth because he thinks it's "dodgy". He is in reaction to having been a somewhat committed Christian until his early twenties and he is now prosecuting a somewhat materialist worldview. Can't blame him really.

'Course, I think he's a chaos magician who hasn't realised it yet.

He's written books explaining what he does IIRC.

Shit, is that THE Andy Beck in the Temple thread of Barbelith?? If so, that's hardcore!

14:56 / 03.06.04

His book Pure Effect has some examples of techniques he uses but not too many it's mostly related to creating a persona and some advanced card magic, I wouldn't pay the (quite high) price unless you were a magician (the other kind).

I didn't see the show but he did something similar at his live show and seemed really against the Spiritualist movement - he told a story of how it all started with 2 little girls from the states who fooled people into thinking that they were contacting spirits, does anyone know if there is any truth in the story or was it something he made up to get his point across.. I'll go google.

trouser the trouserian

15:02 / 03.06.04

he told a story of how it all started with 2 little girls from the states who fooled people into thinking that they were contacting spirits...

I would guess he's referring to the Fox Sisters

15:06 / 03.06.04

Yup that's the one although he didn't mention this part -

" It was later learned that a reporter had offered $1,500 to them if they would confess and give him an exclusive on the story. Desperate for money and liquor, the sisters apparently agreed, and then proceeded to drink their earnings away."

He said that they went public that they had faked the whole thing but by then it was too late and the movement was already in full motion.

09:29 / 08.06.04

He's done something like this in one of his shows before. It showed that the part during the seance where the cup falls over and the ball floats, was done by some guy dressed in black with a stick.