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Freemasonry

  
 
eco
18:09 / 24.05.04
I've seen a couple of threads in the past here talking about 'The Craft' so if anyone's interested I'd be happy to shoot the breeze with you about it... Most Freemasons today see attending lodge and the festive board afterward as a means of escaping from modern day society for a night out with the boys. Most Freemasons are old (avg. age about 60 in the UK) but most also have all their wits about them. Must have something to do with keeping one's mind active...?

Aside from being the 2nd largest charity (next to the Lottery) in the UK many probably wonder why Freemasonry is relevant today. Described as a 'system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols' it's something that has to be experienced over time in order to be appreciated. As with most things in life, there are no quick / instant fixes here.

Most of the romantic esoteric history has been squeezed out into the various side orders such as the SRIA (http://www.sria-eastanglia.org.uk), Order of Light etc. See http://internet.lodge.org.uk/masonic/additional_degrees.htm for all the additional degrees worked in England and Wales. The female only or co-masonic bodies are far more interested in working to an esoteric agenda than the 'regular' male-only body these days. However, there are clear links to deeper esoteric meanings for those who are interested to see beyond the veils.

In order to join you have to be over 21 and believe in a Supreme Being. No-one will ask you to join. There's quite a good (long and mostly US based) FAQ at http://www.surfsteve.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1312 . The only secrets in Freemasonry are the signs, grips and tokens of recognition and even these were revealed decades ago. The fact that they haven't changed must surely indicate their symbolic use today. So if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to try and answer them if I know the answer.
 
 
Seth
19:14 / 24.05.04
Cheers!

Is Steven Guttenberg a mason?
 
 
eco
07:48 / 25.05.04
Kampai!

LOL. Just because we made him a star doesn't mean he's necessarily "on the square"... ;-)
 
 
De Selby
11:27 / 25.05.04
How do we know that you're not just spreading propaganda, so that we'll THINK that they're just a charity group?

Huh?

HUH??!?!?!?!?!

ok...

seriously, how do you know anything about the masons? I'm assuming you're a member or affiliate in some way. And whats the deal with the handshake?
 
 
illmatic
12:24 / 25.05.04
I know very little about masonry but could you talk at all about it's links to Western Magical traditions? Anything at all from a lengthy discourse to little snippets. ie. I know the founding members of the Golden Dawn were masons. To what degree do GD rituals reflect this sort of stuff? And further, what is the origin of these rituals within masonty itself?
 
 
eco
12:53 / 25.05.04
Alex, that's up to you to decide. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, only to shed a little of what I think are the facts. Most elderly Masons do not have internet access and are still affected by much of the self-imposed secrecy that enveloped the Craft during the 2nd World War. Because of much of the Craft's Jewish orientation, Hitler persecuted Masons as much as Jews.

I'm a Mason yet I hold no provincial or grand rank. However, my Masonic proposer (you need to find a proposer and seconder) holds something called SLGR (Senior London Grand Rank) and is a 'Magus' of the Surrey SRIA. I only mention that for all those who think titles are important.

There's no deal with the handshake (or the other signs, tokens and grips) other than that they serve as a tool to unify a disparate group of individuals. In the past they had their purpose but nowadays are clearly only symbolic overhangs of a proud tradition. If you want to know what they are then read "Darkness Visible" but I sure am not going to tell you. After all, what good are words if not backed up by action?

In the past, Masonry was responsible for much of Europe (and America's) enlightenment and one can see some of its influence in most of the Western Mystery Schools around today, never mind Wicca (Gardnerian version). What was (still is) the essence of Freemasonry has not changed. Society has simply moved on. The glory days of Freemasonry are long gone but the glow remains if one is prepared to look for it amongst all the stuffy old men (and women)... ;-)
 
 
eco
13:28 / 25.05.04
Illmatic, most are known today as 'speculative' Masons. In the past there were 'Operative' Masons who were supposedly the original stone cutters and builders in stone. It is debatable wwhether or not these 'Craftsmen' were descended from the Templar Knights, many of which sought refuge amongst the Cathedral builders of Europe. The official, watered-down version (in the abscence of provable fact) is that Masonry originated from the stone craft guilds. What is clear is that the ritual contains many references to the building of King Solomon's Temple, to Hiram Abiff - his principal architect, and to a whole host of other ancient stories and esoteric meanings. It could be argued that "hidden knowledge" crossed over from ancient Greece and Egypt and into Palestine from where the Templars (or others) picked it up and brought it into Europe. Others think that the Celtic Druids (e.g. "May's sons") and the Nordic tribes may have had some influence. Rosslyn Chapel outside of Edinburgh is linked to the Templars and the Vikings. Whatever the origins, they have been haunting occultist's and Mason's minds for centuries, from John Dee to Christopher Wren to myself and many others.

Masons make much of the Square & Compass, being as it were, the unofficial logo of the Craft. In one of the old books of China called "The Great Learning" (circa 500 BC) it reads "...a man should not do unto others what he would not have them do unto him..." The writer adds, "This is called the principle of acting on the square." And it's still called that today!

Most of the G.D. founders were Masons as was Paul Foster Case, the founder of BOTA. Mme. Blavatsky and her entourage were all associated with Masons, as was Alice Bailey and Dion Fortune. Alasteir Crowley (O.T.O) attempted to join the Craft as well as a host of other side degrees but was rejected each time. He claims he received the honorary 33rd deg. of the Scottish Rite which he apparently did get in some oscure 'irregular' lodge in Mexico somewhere. After all, anyone can bestow a degree on you, it's what the degree is worth that is important. On the 33rd deg., it's purely an honourary degree for lifetime service and is bestowed by http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/index.htm (you've gotta take the virtual tour)...
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:02 / 25.05.04
Damn, if this thread would've come up a couple years ago I would've bombarded you with questions but now... I can't really remember what they were.

There was this old guy at my job who was a Mason and was always trying to get me to join (not in an annoying way or anything. He just said he'd sponser me or something.) But he was always telling me shit like, "If you know what we know you'd freak out", which always caught my imagination.

So um, I guess my question is, what do you guys know that's so freaky?
 
 
macrophage
16:41 / 25.05.04
Does your masonry promote multitheism or does it promote monotheism? Do you beleve in GAOTU, Jahbulon, Baphomet, or some sorta beardy geezer not unlike a fiery temper tantrum? Do you perform the Widow's Son when you goto court? What do you think of people like Pike who was highly involved in US early freemasonry? Do you have homoerotic ceremonies not unlike Skull and Crossbones? What do you think of Theosophy?

"And the Beat goes on...."
 
 
cusm
16:56 / 25.05.04
Do you have anything useful to contribute on the topic of sacred geometry?
 
 
FinderWolf
17:52 / 25.05.04
>> If you want to know what they are then read "Darkness Visible" but I sure am not going to tell you.

Isn't "Darkness Visible" about William Styron's battle with depression? Or are we not talking about the same book? Where does Masonry come into it?
 
 
eco
22:42 / 25.05.04
ImpulsiveLad, I humbly suggest he was extracting the urine…. I guess he was saying he would be prepared to be your proposer. What do the Masons know that’s so freaky? Well, nothing really. Anyone is welcome to tour United Grand Lodge in Covent Garden, London and buy the ritual books from ‘Central Regalia’ over the road from it. For me, Freemasonry is an experience over time and is about knowing and bettering oneself. I guess that freaks some people out…

macrophage, Freemasonry requires one to believe in a Supreme Being or Great Architect of the Universe. There are certain side orders which require a belief in the Trinitarian Christian God. I personally believe that we are all a part of God so I guess that makes me a multitheist. Jahbulon and Baphomet are words taken out of context. Read the myth of the Baphomet for more enlightenment. Hiram Abiff was a widow’s son and as we are all Hiram’s brothers, we are all widow’s sons. There’s a whole depth of symbolic meaning to this. I would be highly amused if I ever heard the phrase you’re referring to or saw the Masonic sign of distress ever being given in court or anywhere else for that matter. Again, it’s purely symbolic and I’d love to see a proven example of it ever being used to obtain a favour. Obviously there is favouritism amongst SOME masons even though it’s prohibited to use one’s membership to gain favours. Far more important deals and contacts are made on the golf course and fishing trips than amongst Masons. I personally know of a Mason who was rejected for a job simply because he stated his membership to the interviewer, someone he knew to be a Mason. Personally I quite enjoy reading Albert Pike although I think he’s a little far-fetched for my taste. He is only really well known in the Southern US jurisdiction of the side order of Scottish Rite Freemasonry. He hardly speaks for all Freemasons and has been seriously misquoted in the past. Read this for the whole Lucifer / Pike thing… Homoerotic ceremonies like those rich Yale frat boys...? Hmmm, I don’t think so although there is a degree of male contact in the ritual. Gay men are welcome to join but it’s all pretty non erotic I’m afraid. However, we do bear our left breast. Women Freemasons have a special garment for this. Theosophy? Interesting, I like what they’ve done with the whole Eastern approach thing.

cusm, not really I don’t think. It’s all out there already. Pythagorus and the Neo-Platonists are a big influence in Masonic studies as are the Liberal Arts i.e. the Trivium (Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic) and the Quadrivium (Arithmetic: number in itself, Geometry: Number in space, Music & Harmonics: Number in time and Astronomy: Number in space and time). You should also read W.D. Gann, a Freemason and commodities trader who made a fortune with options using his version of sacred geometry, much of it related to what he called the magic word, ‘Jehovah’. Perhaps also of interest is how the Pentagram and Hexagram can be drawn by Astronomical conjunctions…. . Then there’s the Fibonacci number series, the golden mean etc. etc.

FinderWold, I’m referring to the book written by Rev. Walton Hannah in 1952, ISBN 1 901157 70 9. But there’s plenty of other exposes out there on the net. Clearly however, one should avoid the rantings of David Icke unless you want your mind to turn to mush.
 
 
illmatic
07:27 / 26.05.04
Yeah, I see by your comments about David Icke where your coming from - well you and your masonic lizard bloodline master ain't gonna get me!! Damnit!

Joke .... Thanks for the answer. I will come back with more questions as and when.
 
 
eco
08:13 / 26.05.04
Ha, ha Illmatic, don't be too sure.... You really should take a tour of the United Grand Lodge Temple in London. When you do you should stand on the lapis lazuli in the 6 pointed star on the floor outside of the Temple doors. That way we can transport your lifeforce to our evil lizard masters on Sirius... << Evil snigger >> ... Now guess where lapis lazuli is found these days? The Afghan Mountains... Do you really think we were bombing Osama? It was all a ploy to get at the underground crystals.... << More evil sniggers >> Of course I'm joking... (I hope)!
 
 
illmatic
08:39 / 26.05.04
Actually I've always wanted to take that tour - I think will now be prompted. Could be a fun Barbelith day out.

(And of course, when the floor collapses away and I'm confronted with Eco's evil lizard masters, we can battle away through the maze of Lizard Death, free the gals in chain metal bikinis, slay the hideous hybrid Lizard Overlord and go on to save the planet. And then go to the pub).
 
 
illmatic
08:44 / 26.05.04
BTW ECo, have you ever read Francis Yates? If not, I think it would be right up your street (especially "The Rosacrucian Enlightenment").
 
 
macrophage
16:45 / 26.05.04
I've always wanted to check out inside a Masonic Temple to see if I can smell spilt blood - hee hee - only kidding! Roslin Temple seems cool though I haven't visited for ages!
 
 
h3r
19:18 / 26.05.04
eco, what degree are you?
 
 
eco
20:29 / 26.05.04
Thanks Illmatic, I've got the "Rosicrucian Enlightenment" on my bookshelf but have not got round to it yet.

There are 3 degrees in English Craft Masonry. A 3rd degree Mason (like myself) can join a number of various side orders such as the Royal Arch, Rose-Croix, SRIA, Ark Mariners, Order of the Secret Monitor, Knights Templar etc. etc. In the US they have the Scottish Rite which organises the degree structure into the 'infamous' 33 degree system. The York rite includes most of the chivalric degrees such as Knights Templar etc. The Shriners are very popular in the US and one needs to have the 32nd degree to join (or so I believe). But in the US one can receive all 32 degrees in a day. It's known as McMasonry and very much frowned upon over here in England! There are thousands of Shriners around and they do a great job of building hospitals and throwing parties etc. etc. The 33rd degree is given for honorary life service.
 
 
h3r
21:55 / 26.05.04
But in the US one can receive all 32 degrees in a day
this about tops it off now...
granted, you do know some things. but either you are BSing us here, or spreading disinformation on purpose.
so do you belong to the York Rite (is that what you refer to as English Craft Masonry?)
you guys don't learn anything about tarot, hermetism, scared geometry, numeral symbolism and such in your order? do you study such or related materials on your own?

and the Scottish Rite with its 33 degree system is pretty much the largest masonic order in existence, is it not? along with the York Rite, I daresay its constitutes the main body of Masonry for the past 200 years or so, so I dont think the Scottish Rite should be referred to as "a side order", or Albert Pike as a freak example known mainly within the "Southern US jurisdiction of the side order of Scottish Rite Freemasonry"

other things you say i disagree with (besde on personal experience and conversation) include but are not limited to:
"most freemasons are old"
"The only secrets in Freemasonry are the signs, grips and tokens of recognition and even these were revealed decades ago"
"Most elderly Masons do not have internet access"
 
 
eco
22:22 / 26.05.04
h3r, I have no interest in spreading disinformation. I would hope that the information I've provided can be readily verified, even on the net. I'm afraid I can only really speak knowingly about British Freemasonry. The Craft (or Blue Lodge) is simply the first 3 degrees. Some consider the Royal Arch to be the completion of the 3rd degree and Mark Masonry to be the completion of the 2nd. The US follows mainly the Scottish version of Freemasonry and the various 'other' degrees are grouped into the Scottish Rite and the York Rite. In England the following side orders are available, some of which fall within the Scottish and York Rite groupings. Here's a link which explains a bit more about the structure in the US.
 
 
eco
07:18 / 27.05.04
As far as learning about the tarot, hermeticism, sacred geometry, numeral symbolism etc. these are mostly left to our own study. The Craft does offer a depth of possible interpretation for those who like to search beyond the veils. The history of the Western Mystery Tradition is wrapped up with that of Freemasonry. However, there are far less brethren who are interested in the esoteric side than there are those who just want a bit of fellowship.

"The only secrets in Freemasonry are the signs, grips and tokens of recognition and even these were revealed decades ago"... I know it's hard to swallow because of the way some Masons act but these are the only things we have promised to keep secret. Yet they are all publically known so why do we still do it? Tradition is one answer. The other is that it helps to lend some gravitas and a sense of unity to what we do. Masons are no different from anyone else save for the boundary line we have created here.

"Most elderly Masons do not have internet access".
Touché. I was being too presumptuous.
 
 
grant
13:39 / 27.05.04
I personally believe that we are all a part of God so I guess that makes me a multitheist.

Actually, technically I think that makes you a panentheist.

Sorry to interrupt, taking my pedant tweeds off now, do go on.
 
 
h3r
15:35 / 27.05.04
eco, so are you basically in your Rite for the fellowship only? you make it sound as though there really is nothing to Masonry besides..uhm....a secret handshake that isnt even secret? The way you present it, it sounds more like the Lions Club to me.
can you explain again what is attractive to you about yor involvment in your particular branch of Masonry? What is really the point? "Being an idal human being" appears to be a very broad and lofty goal, and the application of practical methods to attain such a state does not seem to be part of what you are describing...(as it is with BOTA, OTO, GD, and other Masonic Orders I am familiar with)
Thxn for your answers!
 
 
eco
18:06 / 27.05.04
What is really the point?
A question I've asked myself more than a few times. I agree with the following which I read recently...

What does masonry mean to you?
Interesting and stimulating friendships, the chance to be of relief (charity) to others, a bedrock of moral and divine historical insights that fit with my culture. It is a personal PRACTICAL experience over time, the lessons of which take a while to diffuse into our lives. After all, the word 'water' cannot quench our thirst.

What is a mason?
Someone who walks their path true and square without detriment to others. Someone who understands that we are all on the level. Someone who understands the unity of life and works at integrating themselves into it. Of course you don't need to be a mason to understand and do this.

Yet I personally feel that the Masonic Institution has had its glory days. Most of the practical esoteric aspects have literally been "washed out" of the Craft and the modern ritual. Often, lodge work involves simply learning the ritual rote and not bothering to understand and "experience" it. Many of the Mystery schools you mention were founded by Masons, most likely because Masonry could not contain them, yet I'm sure it provided the initial inspiration. And that inspiration is still there for those that are interested. Anyway, I enjoy it. Thousands wouldn't.

I think that's about enough of a download from my side. I've got to go and pick up the goat for tonight's meeting. I hope the various links I've provided can serve as a launching pad for your own research. Thanks for your time.
 
 
pornotaxi
21:15 / 27.05.04
my grandfather was big in the masons. he got pulled over for drunk driving quite often in the seventies, but never once went to court. definitely a widow's son vibe going on there.

i popped out to roslyn chapel the other day, first time for a decade. it's not the same since the heritage folk stuck a cattle byre roof over it. doesn't exactly extend the light.

but i digress
 
 
penitentvandal
18:29 / 03.06.04
Hmmmm...Always wondered how they squared that whole 'there are only three degrees' thing with the number of people claiming to be thirty-third degree etc, now it seems obvious - although you know someone was having a laugh when he decided to refer to the post-third-degree branches as 'side orders'. I can imagine the Order of the Onion Ring, the Order of the Curly Fries, the Order of the Garlic Bread...but I digress.

Also like the idea of the Order of the Secret Monitor - both because it gives me a wonderful image of a komodo dragon in a mask, and also because I imagine a secret monitor who would function like the milk monitor at school - giving out all the secrets for everyone to use.

'Okay, here are today's secrets, everyone. Timmy, you get the secret of why we really went into Iraq. Marie, you get the secret of where Osama bin Laden really is. Sarah, you get the secret of how to increase your penis size with my all-natural pill (heh heh); Jed, you get the secret of exactly why Tom and Nicole broke up; Frank, you get today's super-secret name of God - now remember you can only use that once, then we have to change it. Yesterday's name of God was 'Gooogawoo', by the way...yes, with three o's, then two...just one a, that's right. So if anyone tries using that today, they're not in the order, okay? Okay. And remember, kids - no telling!' It would be great. I wanna be the Secret Monitor.

Serious question, though - does joining some side orders prevent you from joining some of the others? Do some side orders have feuds going, and stuff? Just wondering.
 
 
BARISKIL666
20:22 / 06.06.04
Freemasonry gets an unfairly bad rap.People take the piss because Freemasonry is non-conformist.I prefer to judge Masonry by it's enemies,The Nazi's(the leader of my own school was imprisoned during WW2 by the Nazi's)The Communist's,The Roman Catholic Church,Fundamentalist Christians.These groups all represent the "forces of tyranny and superstition" in other words,are fundamentally oppposed to human liberty as represented by Masonry. There are alot of valuable secrets for those prepared to look for them.
 
 
eco
17:17 / 09.06.04
Serious question, though - does joining some side orders prevent you from joining some of the others?
No, time is the only issue. You've got to be in some orders before you can be in others.

Do some side orders have feuds going, and stuff? No, just stuff.

Regarding the Order of the Secret Monitor, it's about the friendship of David & Jonathan as described in the Bible. It's a very popular order to join as everyone really works on the true meaning of brotherhood and frienship. No male-on-male action though for those who're wondering.
 
 
domulante
03:44 / 16.06.04
anyone ever heard of the Rosicrucians or of the Ancient Mystic Order Rosae Crucius (AMORC)
for that matter are there any Rosicrucians in our midst?
 
 
BARISKIL666
00:18 / 19.06.04
AMORC were originally an offshoot of the OTO,Crowleys signiture is on their charter allegedly.I have a few freinds in AMORC,they're OK but not exactly world changing revolutionaries.
 
  
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