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Underground > Creation >

What's it worth, Guv?!!?!??

Warrington Minge

19:41 / 19.05.04

Hello Everyone.

I've been wondering which section to post this in because its kind of an art question really or maybe something for the help section or even the comics bit or perhaps when it comes down to it maybe its a music question. But one of the moderators for Creation said I should post it here.

So whats the problem?

Well just recently, about a week ago in fact, a fairly major music magazine phoned me up and told me they really liked some of the cartoons/illustrations of pop bands that I'd sent them and that they wanted to use me for their magazine. Now I've been doing illustration on and off for the last 10 years but my previous engagments have been very erratic and few and far between. To put it bluntly I'm fairly good at the art thing but absolute rubbish at the business side of things. Hence the fact for the past 10 years since leaving art college I have been mostly spending my time working in music retail and doing illustration work in my own time when i can get it and praying that some day I could get some concrete illustration work and stick my fingers up at retail for good.

So...

...this offer seems to suggest that this could happen. I've been asked to do covers, billboard posters and special edition pull out posters. Obviously it goes without saying I'm crapping myself but perhaps not for the reasons you suspect. Doing what they want is fine, thats the fun part, but I have absolutely no idea what to charge them. Added to this problem its a fairly new magazine only on its second issue and they're probably still trying to make a profit themselves. However when I spoke to the Editor on the phone he pushed me for a fee which I had to make up on the spot out of pure fear. I told him it would be about £100 but I just don't know if thats too high or too low. If its too low thats fine because really when it comes down to it I just want to see these cartoons in print because I feel more work will probably come of it. His response was that it was fine but it may be more later which sounds good, I know, but I'm still unsure about the whole thing.

Any advice anyone can give me I would be eternally grateful.

Cheers people.

23:10 / 19.05.04

I think the general rule of thumb is that for freelance work you charge by the hour, unless you have agreed a fee in advance. But what your hourly rate would be I have no idea.

I guess the thing to do initially is to work out how long you think the job may take you, hour on hour. Then you have to factor in your materials such as paper, pens, computer time, whatever. (And if you work from home that will also include electricity, a portion of your rent/mortgage, equipment wear and tear etc. Really, it does.)

Personally, I think it isn't for you to worry about whether they are a new magazine or not and what their expenditure at this stage is, you have to charge what you are worth. They're not doing you a favour (believe me, they're not, that Editor isn't asking for your work to be kind to you, they are paying you because they want your work because they think it's right for the magazine).

However, if you wish to charge them less than normal because you want more work from them and you think it might be worth it in the long run, it sometimes does help to point out those facts: you are charging them less this time because you can see a long term relationship being built from the inital contract.

But don't sell youself short just because it is your first paying job and because you are so chuffed they've asked for your work that you can't think straight.

If you do that you'll end up being paid tit all for a long, long time.

23:44 / 19.05.04

One. MILLION. Dollars.

I'm pretty sure this isn't a real problem. I mean, we can trade problems, if you want. Congrats.

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

12:44 / 20.05.04

I am pretty sure you should head on over to The Association of Illustrators and ask for some advice on the discussion board there, or better still get yourself a phone number (I think there's an advice line you can call, with regard to these things - there's definitely information of use for you there).

It seems to me that you might be asking for much much less than you should be getting, although I'm not super experienced in this area. The people at the AOI, however, really are. I think the main thing to remember is that this is business and that's how you should approach it. You need to get what you're worth, basically. Although, as you say, if you do think this is a good oppurtunity for you to become known - and one you need - then you can factor that in, also.

Good luck, hope that helps on some way!

Warrington Minge

18:09 / 20.05.04

Cheers for that I will try the AOI right now. Thanks.

21:36 / 20.05.04

Yeah... be careful of selling yourself short. It's difficult to up your prices with a client when you've proven to them that they don't have to pay you as much as you're worth. Set up an invoice with all of the information so that you're covered and get signatures. You want to cover the bases before you commit cause anyone who has done work in the creative industry has been burnt at one time or another by friends or verbal promises.

Also, as was stated before, laundry list the prices of materials and incidentals so that you could include them in your services as well as use them for tax write-offs, etc. You can save a great deal of money when you are self-employed and leverage in your costs.

Since it's illustration work, a per hr basis doesn't always apply. If you do think hourly, come up with a figure based on the time you think it'll take. 10hrs @ $35US/hr = $350, for example. Usually ill. work's cost goes for the placement of the image and the amount of uses of it for release while considering the publication you're working for. If it shows up on a front cover and a spot illustration it's two uses. Make sure that the image's use is spelled out or bought outright for the proper fee, otherwise you may find that you did a lot more work for them for next to no cost.

The Graphic Arts Guild is also a good place to look. Their ethical and pricing guidelines are a great place to start looking and are covered in membership as well as in their book. I'd recommend picking it up and using their logic as well as their contract guidelines to make sure that you're doing things the right way.

21:42 / 20.05.04

Average going rate for a single illustration in a UK business to business mag is £90-£150 pound, going up to about £200 for a full colour sort of thing.

22:09 / 20.05.04

Also, from my experience of the industry, magazine's generally pay for usage of a single illustration rather than paying an hourly freelance rate. If you're put on the spot about your fee, you could always turn it around and ask them what they had in mind. Magazine production is generally very much budget driven, they will have a figure in mind. It's fair to ask them what that ball park figure is, and guage if if there's scope for negotiating it up if you think it's too small. If you think this is likely to lead to regular work, I'd accept what they offer and put your rate up further down the line. It's a tough industry to get into, and you can't really be too precious until you've made a name and a reputation for yourself. Which is fair enough really.

22:46 / 20.05.04

It’s worth only what an editor will pay you for it, no more, no less. Think of it like that. Unless you literally don’t have the time, *never* turn anything down, whatever they’re paying. And don’t get into believing they want your work because it’s so great - although I’m sure it is, but you already know that - the fact is, magazines are being launched all the time, and then re-launched every six months; and every single time an editor will throw as much stuff as they can at it and see what sticks. If it’s a mainstream magazine, it’s not going to be run along coolly scientific lines or according to non-commercial considerations like ‘taste’. It’s more like a cutthroat, chaotic, frantic scramble for every last inch of market share. In short, give it all you’ve got, and then some. Treat every month like it’s your last. Never stretch a deadline. And screw being loyal to this one editor who’s giving you a chance, instead use it, start sending your stuff around other editors the instant you’re in print and never, ever miss an opportunity to chivvy for more work and more money. And more work.

What’s the magazine, by the way?

A beautiful tunnel of ghosts

18:24 / 21.05.04

I'd add that try not to let the editor pressure you on the phone - it's a tactic like any other and is employed to get something - in your case, it may have been to get a lower price. If you need to and if you have time, write down what you want to say during a conversation - for example, how many pieces are they looking for, what size, how many colours, which subjects, etc, so that you can agree what the editor wants and so that you can agree a fair price, not one that's the product of fear. I've done exactly what you're talking about on the phone and ended up allowing other people to define terms with which I've subsequently been less than happy. If you want this to be a long-term career, then you've got to manage it like everything else. Sorry to seem so didactic, but I think you've got a terrific opportunity and I hope you can take full advantage of it, on your own terms. All the best!

16:13 / 22.05.04

Have you got a portfolio of your work online that I can have a look at?