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The Problem with Superman?

 
  

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diz
17:34 / 21.05.04
I was thinking the other day that Kingdom Come was probably the best post-Crisis Superman story. That story really did get Superman exactly right.

agreed. wholeheartedly. i think it's actually the best example of how to deal with the perception of Superman being outdated.

the Joker kills a whole bunch of people, including Lois Lane. Superman still stands by his principles and refuses to kill him. that's one of the first times i ever really cared about Superman. just the thought of him grieving over Lois, dead at the hands of possibly the most morally reprehensible character in the DCU, with the Joker grinning and taunting him. the Joker's so weak and helpless, and no one would blame Superman in the slightest... but still, he holds his ground. THAT's Superman right there.

Magog will kill him, though, and he does, and the people of Metropolis turn on Superman in favor of the hot new thing, the brutal new "hero." my heart just broke for him, returning to Kansas, rejected and mourning in silence - only a few people in the world even know that the woman Joker killed was his wife.

just the quiet, stoic suffering and dignity in that, the nobility - that's Superman in the contemporary comics world. and of course, after things go to shit in his absence, he still comes in to save the day.
 
 
Triplets
19:44 / 21.05.04
Which is the problem with DC comics and mainstream superheroes. The PC-uberfriendly kiddy-safe attitude.

Superman should have fucking vapourised the Joker. No, instead he holds himself to this incredibly naived and fantasistic ideal. The Joker is a spec of human dog-shit that doesn't deserve to exist. And Superman and Batgod let him live to kill another day thus becoming accomplice to whatever the Joker does next.

Bravo on your moral choices fellas. Bra-vo.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:59 / 21.05.04
Oh, come on. it's not about being "PC" or "kiddy safe" - Superman stands for pure morality, and that's the issue. Pure morality is something to aspire to, but it's also problematic and painful. Superman doesn't believe in murdering people, and he doesn't believe in revenge. This is not some stupid reactionary thing, it's the highest possible moral virtue!

I think that you're totally missing the point - taking the high moral ground can lead to evil "winning," but the urge for murder and vengeance is a slippery slope which will eventually make you no better than what you hate most. Magog kills the Joker and solves the problem of the Joker murdering people, but he sets an awful precedent that eventually leads to disaster.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:04 / 21.05.04
So Triplets, The Punisher = Best Superhero Ever or The Punisher = BEST SUPERHERO EVER?

Or are you more of a Lobo or Judge Dredd guy?
 
 
Triplets
21:55 / 21.05.04
NAH I LIEK SPAWN LOL
 
 
Triplets
21:59 / 21.05.04
I think that you're totally missing the point - taking the high moral ground can lead to evil "winning," but the urge for murder and vengeance is a slippery slope which will eventually make you no better than what you hate most. Magog kills the Joker and solves the problem of the Joker murdering people, but he sets an awful precedent that eventually leads to disaster.

Well, in that case wouldn't it be more sensible for Superman to lobby for the Joker's death through the appropriate legal channels: convinction leading to the death penalty? Superman's against himself killing (y'know, apart from other Kryptonians...) but what about in certain legal contexts? I don't see him rescuing people from Death Row.
 
 
The Falcon
00:40 / 22.05.04
If you think of continuity as a linear issue, then yes, the Joker &c. are mass-murderers on a huge scale.

And they should all be executed, and new villains/conflicts should replace them.

All 2D life is sacred if it is an icon, though.
 
 
Char Aina
02:46 / 22.05.04
so you want superman to lobby for the execution of the criminally insane?
its a slippery slope, as was mentioned before.

havent you ever read a batman comic where he thinks about how all this death and violence and punishment of the guilty has done nothing to satisfy him?

he still feels the loss of his parents; some might even say because he keep reminding himself of the circumstances of their death.

his whole life has become a monument to their death.

superman would have become a monument to their lives.
he kinda has done for his own folks(the alien ones) and their people.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
05:58 / 22.05.04
I agree with Superman comics being written like Tom Strong's, adding more adventure and going to fantastic places, weird dimensions, other planets and the like; keeping all the social commentary and stuff you like, but mainly fun-oriented, and with self contained issues, with the *occasional* two or three part story.
Also: If he's really Superman, and not Clark, what's the point of being Clark Kent? Getting Lois is much easier as Superman (I am talking the classic, nerdy Clark), and he dosn't need a job, if he needs money for something, he squeezes anything 'till is a diamond and sells it. "For having a human point of view of life" you say? But you don't need this becoming a problem, I mean keeping a secret identity, if you were surrounded by Lois, Jimmy, Perry and the bunch while you could hear a baby being circled by vampire hippos halfway around the world, and you couldn't get out of a certain situation to save the damn baby without the others suspecting that you're Superman, then your "human point of view" is worthless. That's because I think he is really Clark; but also really Superman; he's Clark by cultural inheritance and Superman by genetic inheritance.

Also, Punisher should go into space, and Daredevil should get a Daredevilmovile. And crash it on every issue.
 
 
SiliconDream
07:33 / 22.05.04
havent you ever read a batman comic where he thinks about how all this death and violence and punishment of the guilty has done nothing to satisfy him?

Well, he hasn't actually tried the death and violence route, has he? I wouldn't be satisfied either if my job consisted of sending psychos to the asylum, waiting for them to escape, and doing it again. It's always seemed odd to me that Batman is presented as this terrifying figure of the night, on the edge of insanity, able to make hardened criminals shit their pants and surrender on sight, when all he actually does is punch people and take them to jail. I'd be more frightened of fighting an old lady than Batman; the old lady might have a gun in her purse.

If he actually wants satisfaction for the death of his parents, then maybe he should, you know, cap Joe Chill and set the Joker on fire and flay the Penguin alive and see if that makes him feel better. If nothing else, it'd give an actual reason for the dark reputation he's supposed to rely on for survival. Like Gail Simone says, "Whoever said you can't solve problems through violence just wasn't trying hard enough."

I don't particularly object to reading about a guy with a code against killing, but I find it a flaw in most Batman stories that I'm supposed to consider him edgy and scary anyway.

Which, to return to the thread topic, is analogous to one of the problems with Superman. Namely, that the reader is supposed to consider him the bestest superhero in the world. After all, that's what every other hero says whenever his name comes up. But Supes doesn't actually do much to support this. He punches villains and averts cosmic threats just like five thousand other superheroes, except possibly with the assumption that he can punch harder and avert more effectively than they can. All the things he could do which would actually make people think he was a wonderful superhero--regime change and ending world hunger and disease and so forth--he doesn't do, because he "can't interfere with humanity." Nonetheless we're simply told that he's the most important hero on the planet and everything would be unbearably horrible if he weren't around.

Both characters suffer from violations of the "show, don't tell" principle, in my opinion. Or possibly "tell one thing and show the opposite." But at least Batman gets to go properly psycho in the movies, whereas even there Superman has to be hailed as the new messiah while doing nothing more than maintaining the status quo.
 
 
Mario
13:07 / 22.05.04
Wonder Woman: "Are we doing too much or too little? When does intervention becomes domination?"
Superman: "I can only tell you what I believe, Diana: Humankind must be allowed to climb to its own destiny. We can't carry them there."
Green Lantern: "But that's what she's saying. What's the point? Why should they need us at all?"
Superman: "To catch them if they fall."

JLA #4, by that Morrison hack.
 
 
Char Aina
13:29 / 22.05.04
Well, he hasn't actually tried the death and violence route, has he?

i thought beating people up was violence... and i'm sure he has killed, just not very often.
 
 
SiliconDream
15:55 / 22.05.04
Wonder Woman: "Are we doing too much or too little? When does intervention becomes domination?"
Superman: "I can only tell you what I believe, Diana: Humankind must be allowed to climb to its own destiny. We can't carry them there."
Green Lantern: "But that's what she's saying. What's the point? Why should they need us at all?"
Superman: "To catch them if they fall."

JLA #4, by that Morrison hack.


I know, poor guy. One can only imagine he established the Ultramarines to have some heroes that could actually do something.

"We'll kill if we have to. If we have to, we'll let you know."

Did anyone else ever actually use the Ultramarines again?
 
 
Triplets
16:54 / 22.05.04
Which is why I think characters like Superman need to find a balance between the killhappy ultra-violence of the Elite and the Authority and DC's pacifistic revolving prison system morality.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:24 / 22.05.04
I don't see him rescuing people from Death Row.

That's because Superman respects the law even if he doesn't agree with it.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:38 / 22.05.04
Superman need to find a balance between the killhappy ultra-violence of the Elite and the Authority and DC's pacifistic revolving prison system morality.

But this "revolving door" is only relevant if you're hung up on continuity, and continuity is the greatest enemy of DC's iconic characters. To try to "realistically" explain away why the villains never really go away or are permanently dealt with is ridiculous because it gets in the way of the fact that the characters are all about their symbollic value. The reality is that people want to read Batman and Superman stories with The Joker and Lex Luthor in them and always will, because those characters best compliment the heroes. The heroes need their iconic villains; they complete their story.

Who really cares about the Authority anymore? They were pretty decent comics, but no one is ever going to seriously care about those characters because they only exist to mirror better loved and more successful characters. The failure of The Authority's critique of Batman/Superman/etc is that ultimately, almost everyone prefers the real thing.
 
 
LDones
04:02 / 23.05.04
Flux, for a being an avowed Marvel junkie, you're a tremendous and concise defense attorney for our lovely middle-aged-men in undies of the DCU. My digital love for you continually grows.

And no, Silicon, the Ultramarines never came up again. Poor bastards. Morrison's extra creations have a way of disappearing forever as other writers hate or fear them. There's no other good reason that Prometheus never showed up again to fight Batman or the JLA, but the White Martians showed up every other week for years.
 
 
eddie thirteen
21:28 / 23.05.04
I think the Ultramarines never came up again because comics like The Authority made the idea kind of irrelevant. There isn't really a whole lot of gas in burly men and women who kill people who make them angry; it's either satire or, in my view, the most repugnant kind of jerkoff power fantasy. Either way, there's not much you can do with it, really. Morrison's antiheroic take on the Ultramarines could have been cool (until it got boring, which I suspect would have happened very swiftly) in the hands of a writer who could grasp that the team wasn't supposed to be entirely sympathetic, though I'm inclined to think such a series would have been a lot funnier if they'd given it to somebody like Chuck Dixon, who'd write it totally seriously and therefore produce an unintentionally hilarious masterpiece.
 
 
SiliconDream
22:46 / 23.05.04
think the Ultramarines never came up again because comics like The Authority made the idea kind of irrelevant. There isn't really a whole lot of gas in burly men and women who kill people who make them angry; it's either satire or, in my view, the most repugnant kind of jerkoff power fantasy.

True, but I don't think Morrison wrote the Ultramarines with that motivation. Like the Ellis Authority, or Stormwatch, or L.E.G.I.O.N., they killed people who were a danger to the world and couldn't be reliably restrained or rehabilitated. People in the stories often worried that these teams were actually just killing whoever pissed them off, but that generally wasn't true.

Which is what made the Superman vs. Elite story so weak; the Elite were a straw man that couldn't offer any comment on the real Authority. Of course Superman had the moral edge on foul-tempered thugs who kill because they want to terrify the world into submission. Superman vs. honest utilitarians who just want to get rid of Lex Luthor before he builds another giant death robot would be a much tougher choice.

Of course, you can't really have an long-lived series with a global-scale superteam that doesn't exercise self-restraint, unless they're off in space like L.E.G.I.O.N., because a status quo can't plausibly be maintained and their world very quickly diverges from the real one. That's the main reason there'll never be an Ultramarines series in the mainstream DC universe.
 
 
Mario
23:08 / 23.05.04
But there WILL be a "Justice League: Elite" series.
 
 
LDones
00:21 / 24.05.04
I don't know that the Action #775 story with the Elite was meant to show that Superman's approach was 'better', exactly, just that Superman is still relevant as an icon. On that level I think it succeeds fabulously.

I don't think Joe Kelly is personally fully behind that idea, which is likely what we're going to get with Justice League: Elite (which apparently kicks off with Superman getting dissed by much of the JLA about the whole Manchester Black thing, though I'm unsure how that's going to work..)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:39 / 24.05.04
It'll turn out to be mind control. Always with the mind control!

I feel we are missing a key issue here. The Falconer said:

All superheroes should go into space, except - possibly - Daredevil.

Quite right: Daredevil should go to Hell. And Heaven. And Limbo. With Dr Strange. "Nothing from you, Dr Strange?"
 
  

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