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Posting non-work safe pics

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
08:56 / 14.05.04
Hokay - this is something we should ultimately put in terms and conditions, but in the meantime I suggest we come up with an enforceable suggestion. Maybe something like:

If you want to post an image that might get people a) hideously offended or b) sacked, don't. Use an anchor tag (a href) to link to the image offsite. Warn people in the post containing the link that this picture is not safe for work.

How's that? I find it faintly astonishing that it needs to be *said*, but there you go. I think that we might have to consider other measures if people can't stick to this...
 
 
Jub
09:08 / 14.05.04
Great idea.

For the thread in question though, I think it's probably prudent to put on more of a warning. "Is this Art?" and a NSFW warning does not justify the hideous images I just saw.

Some people are yet to see Barbelith today and they need more of a warning, something like - "appalling images of an execution dressed up with graphics in an attempt to shock".

I can't stop thinking about it and it's made me feel sick. This whole thing has made me very sad this morning - so I think it needs to either be removed and linked too or a much more detailed warning needs to be included in the summary.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:36 / 14.05.04
Well, full disclosure - I haven't seen it. I browse at work with images turned off, for precisely such an eventuality. As such, I'm not really the person to judge this specific image. I've moved to have the picture turned into a link...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:37 / 14.05.04
I would instead say something to do with 'posts WILL be edited to remove disturbing pictures and replaced with a link to the pictures original source on the internet'.
 
 
sleazenation
10:37 / 14.05.04
For those that haven't seen it, the image inquestion is a work that attempts to recontextualise stills taken from the video of the beheading of Nick Berg. One of the stills is a man holding the severed head of Nick Berg.
 
 
Ariadne
10:47 / 14.05.04
Can I suggest we change the warning? 'Non-worksafe' suggests nudity to me, not gruesome pictures of a beheading. I suspect lots of people who are happy to look at naked bodies would really rather not look at that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:10 / 14.05.04
Sorry... first phrase that came to mind.

Now it's a link, changing the name of the link might be an idea.
 
 
Grey Area
11:27 / 14.05.04
And before this whole things turns into a big shit-flinging match, can someone edit cube's 'Rage is a C***' thing? The image was upsetting to some, yes, but there's no need for that kind of language.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:47 / 14.05.04
Um... probably not. The argument over whether that is misogyny or not is still going, and we tend not to edit for language around here. Certainly I'd like cube to think about his message and maybe edit it himself...

On offensive vs. work-safe. Work-safe as a qualifier has the advantage of being reasonably objective - different people are offended by differnet things, whereas "work safe" means that, regardless of offence, it is liable to get people into trouble in their jobs, which I think is generally easier to apply as a standard of behaviour than "don't post pictures that might offend". Also, I think the case for taking action against people who consistently indulge in behaviour that might get others sascked is more convincing than the case for taking the same action against people who have just caused offence, if you see what I mean...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:27 / 14.05.04
Something like this makes a good guideline come condition:

Do not post images or other materiel that carry a high likelihood of offence or the possibility of employment related disciplinary action. If you wish to make reference to such an image or other materiel then it is recommended that you create a link to the item or page containing it. Links should be immediately prefixed or suffixed by a warning indicating that the link is not safe for work and an indication of the content level.

If you are unsure, ask.

Moderators reserve the right to remove images that fail to comply with this guideline or remove links that lead to material that it is reasonably felt should not be linked to from this site.


The end caveat is just so it's understood that links can be removed if they lead to material outside of the boards general comfort level, especially in the area of legality. Removes that awkward taste issue.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:12 / 14.05.04
I think that's unnecessarily wordy to be honest. Haus' is more to the point.

A warning needs to have mention of the sort of thing that we're talking about (graphic sexual or violent images and other content that is likely to be disturbing or unsuitable for the workplace), what you should do instead (not post a direct image in the thread, instead post a link to it with a warning detailing what is *in* the image) and the fact that moderators may edit it if you don't. Perhaps a few examples e.g.

Link to image (contains pictures of severed head, may disturb)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:16 / 14.05.04
We need a TOS that people can be held to. A FAQ is pretty much useless in this regard.

The same applies to the bullshit that's been going down in the Temple recently.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:24 / 14.05.04
Really what we need is some way of getting people to actually read these things, since nobody ever reads TOSes or FAQs.

It's not something that happens very often though. And if someone's deliberately doing it to be disruptive, they should be banned for trying to disrupt the community, not for posting nasty pictures.
 
 
grant
17:44 / 14.05.04
Actually, I wonder if we're better off not having a formal FAQ or TOS on this stuff, and just doing the (seemingly labor-intensive, but not really) debating & policy legwork in here. I mean, common sense can take us a pretty long way....
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:21 / 14.05.04
I'm with grant, though perhaps some loose guidelines could be posted ... fuck, what am I saying?

This whole picture thing smacks so much of a wholesale abdication of responsibility. "Please take away my right to chose what I post because I am weak and I need boundaries." And, "please take away everyone's right to chose what they post so I can go clicky-clicky all day when I should be working without having to worry about me losing my job over something I've done. I am weak and I need boundaries"

How about people use their common sense? There are very, very few people in the world who genuinely do not understand why something might be offensive. For those people, image-tagged images are already under the jurisdiction of the distributed mod system. And if you're going to get fired for surfing grown-up sites, don't surf them.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:31 / 14.05.04
How about people use their common sense? There are very, very few people in the world who genuinely do not understand why something might be offensive.

You'd *think*, wouldn't you?

For those people, image-tagged images are already under the jurisdiction of the distributed mod system.

Which doesn't prevent images from being posted, and takes a long time to act.

And if you're going to get fired for surfing grown-up sites, don't surf them.

Sorry, explain to me again why I should get fired because someone thinks I might not have seen tubgirl.

If that was the sort of thing you knew you could expect to see by accident when surfing Barbelith, then you wouldn't have much complaint if you got caught, but it *isn't*, thank god.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:44 / 14.05.04
Sorry, explain to me again why I should get fired because someone thinks I might not have seen tubgirl.

I don't understand how this sentence connects with what I suggested but I was absolutely intrigued by 'tubgirl' so I googled it. I did once get caught out by goatse.cx. Funnily enough, it wasn't through a link off the company intranet.

Yes, it probably takes a while for mods to act. But maybe that's just the way it's gotta be. Live with your pain.

One fuck-up and all the crypto-authoritarians come out of the woodwork -- "Someone should doooo something!" "Quick, make up some rules!"

No offense intended, mind.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:47 / 14.05.04
Having said all that, Barbelith's exactly under a flood of NWS images here. I don't think there's any need for a TOS or any sort of drastic action. Maybe a mention in the wiki.

I personally wasn't bothered by Rage's pic, but obviously some people were, and would have been kinda polite to warn them, given what they could reasonably expect to see on the lith.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:53 / 14.05.04
...cross-posted there, as should be fairly obvious.

I don't see how putting a paragraph or two in the wiki makes such a big difference. Live with your pain. Or if you like, I can add one, you can delete it, I can add it back, we could have hours of fun.
 
 
Linus Dunce
20:06 / 14.05.04
I'll live with my pain! Just no TOS, thanks.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:09 / 14.05.04
No! I demand the Wiki Dance!

not really
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:46 / 14.05.04
How in the name of fuck is suggesting that a TOS is a good idea crypto-authoritarianism?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:58 / 14.05.04
Christ, but am I fucking angry about that. Not surprised in the least, mind, because that kind of idiotic rhetoric's been popping up with alarming frequency recently, every time somebody's been pulled up for acting like a cock. You're stepping all over my rights! Freedom of speech! Fuck. Off.

Look, it's simple. A TOS would cover the board in instances like the current one where Rage is engaging in the usual childish bitching about censorship. You agree to put a warning in topic titles when you sign up. You agree to link out to images that some people might not want to see or may cause problems if viewed at work, so that nobody trips over them by accident. You make that formal agreement and, if you then have a post moderated that you feel shouldn't have been, you appeal the decision. If it's found that you didn't violate the TOS, the decision's reversed. If you did, it stays. It's not crypto-fucking-anything.
 
 
■
21:47 / 14.05.04
For the record, I've apologised and asked for the offending section to be changed. What I posted was a knee-jerk attempt to get Rage to realise that shock and offence can't just be covered up with appeals to tenuous theories of art. Not big, not clever, but neither was she.
I fully expect my apology to be followed up with "you hypocrite, censoring yourself even as you make a point blah di blah". Do what you wish with my posts as Barbelith as a community is more important than this sort of bitch-slap contest.
 
 
■
21:48 / 14.05.04
Damn. Did it again. "Bitch-slap". Sometimes an expression is just an expression rather than a sexist insult.
 
 
Mazarine
22:09 / 14.05.04
For the record, a request came through to delete the first post of the "Is this art?" thread. I disagreed to it, as a fair amount of discussion has arisen, and it seemed like it would completely derail the entire thread that follows. I don't know if a moving request was simulatenously in the works, but the thread has now become part of Creation, where I'm not a mod, so the Creation mods may feel differently about the request. Not that anyone's asked about it, but there it is.
 
 
Linus Dunce
08:55 / 15.05.04
E. Randy, you may well be angry about being called a crypto-authoritarian and I apologise for that.

But the fact remains that a TOS would require adjudication. Who, or what body, would do this? And who would have the final say? I suppose Tom Coates would be the authority, and it would be entirely fair that he had this kind of control over his own site. But there would still remain the problem of interpreting the TOS. What, for instance, is 'work-safe'? Some people may run into problems at work by viewing images with a high percentage of skin tone. What is 'offensive'? Some people may legitimately be able to claim that they find a picture representing God offensive. So, to resolve these problems, either you need a party to decide what is and isn't acceptable in every case, or you need an ever-expanding collection of rules and precedents, which comes down to the same thing -- an increasingly powerful authority, taking away the authorship of our own lives.

You may feel that this doesn't happen IRL, so why should it happen on Barbelith. The answer is, IRL, it nearly always does.

You could, I guess, have an elected or otherwise representative judiciary. But that's a whole 'nother question, not necessarily co-dependent on a TOS.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:54 / 15.05.04
I'm thinking more that a TOS would help us to call a halt on Policy & Help getting filled with six page threads about how the crypto-neo-funda-moderator-nazis are stamping on people's freedom of expression. Right now, we have nothing - nothing - that says "don't so this," other than an expectation that posters are capable of exercising some common sense, which is obviously expecting too much in a handful of cases. And "work safe" isn't all that difficult a concept to understand - I mean, unless you happen to work in porn or as a contractor for the US military.

I'm not even suggesting that we do anything fundamentally different from how things work now, just that we make the process more formal. If people understood what consitutes acceptable behaviour on the Underground when they joined up - and it's really starting to seem that an increasing number of people need this stuff spelling out to them - then there wouldn't be the need to go through this song and dance about moderation. Every. Single. Time.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:09 / 15.05.04
Yeah, a TOS would cover us- the minute someone starts getting all "oh! freedom of speech! you fucking Nazis!" at us, we can kindly direct them to the bit that says "well yes, there IS a precedent for this; all we're doing is asking that you behave sensibly in a public space".
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:49 / 15.05.04
Another major concern is that handing over our brains to the writer of a document would give the assholes in this world a system to screw. "Look! Look! I have not broken the rules! They specifically forbid [random offensive behaviour], whereas I have been engaging in [slightly different, random offensive behaviour]! Free speech man!" "Yeah, leave him alone you fascists!" "I demand a second appeal!" blah, blah blah.

All the same, I would be interested in seeing any TOS you might compile if you really think it's a good idea.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:05 / 15.05.04
I don't think there is an argument over having a T&C/TOS document. We used to have the standard UBB one, then we stopped being on UBB and Tom didn't put up another one. However, their presence would not only provide legal cover but also save us from quite so many of the same tedious arguments, and hopefully avoid weasel words like "crypto-authoritarian" being bandied about. I imagine there will be a consultation about them, but I think that if the board is to be reopened, they probably have to happen. Something along the lines of don't reregister if you have been banned, don't register multiple suits, agree that harrassment and racial hatred are not acceptable on Barbelith... it shouldn't be too controversial.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:52 / 15.05.04
I'd be interested in reading exactly what legal cover TOS would provide. There seem to be a lot of assertive calls for regulation in this thread without any, you know, evidence to back them up.

(I'd also be interested to read how one can argue that there is no argument about something. But that would be just for fun.)

Oh, and weasel, schmeasel.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:31 / 15.05.04
Well, first of all legal issues have only been mentioned once in this thread. But anyway...

1) We've currently got a problem with an ex-member threatening at least two current members with legal action. Legal action that's a complete bloody joke, because it's as baseless a threat as any you could wish to think of, but the fact is that it's probably not a nice situation for those being threatened to be put in. If a TOS had been in place when ze signed up, and was worded correctly, I'd imagine ze wouldn't even be considering harrassing people off-board in this manner. Ze certainly wouldn't be taken even half-seriously if there was something to point hir to that immediately invalidated hir 'argument' (such as it is).

2) Covering our arses in terms of copyright and the like.

3) Defining ownership of content posted on the board.

4) The views expressed on this message board do not necessarily blah blah.

I'm sure there are more.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:36 / 15.05.04
Morally, that would give one the high ground, and may dissuade nonsensical threats.

Legally however, I suspect the defence, "I told them not to do it, Your Honour, but they just wouldn't listen" probably wouldn't cut the mustard in most courts.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:33 / 15.05.04
Two points.

New members agree to the TOS when they sign up. That's the point of a TOS. I'm no expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd imagine if they break that agreement, then they don't have a leg to stand on. We do.

Prevention = better than a cure.
 
  

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