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Alternatives to drugs

19:20 / 12.05.04

At a risk to sounding thick what alternatives are there to drugs in creating the sharmanistic state

19:57 / 12.05.04

these work well for me to enter the shamanic state of consciousness:
•sweat lodge
•sensory deprivation tank
•"travel"drum recording Cds work pretty well
(http://www.silverlakemusic.com/art/aharner.html
i especially recommend :"shamanic journey/solo& double drumming)
•chanting/dancing with drumming/rattles works well. (requires some background info and instructions, which I am sure one can dig up online)
•accupuncture
•certain visualization/meditation exercises

while sweat lodge and sensedeptank work great one has to find the right location and also mind that practice is required, it might not work right away. learn the technique, preferrable from someone who knows wht they are talking about.

i do accupuncture and sweatlodge on a weekly basis, used to do the tank but lately I cant seem to find the time and piece of mind... it's a bit challenging since it really confronts you with your inner demons I would say, and sometimes it just becomes tempting to avoid that....

19:58 / 12.05.04

KavaKava powder can assist with many of the mentioned activities.
You be the judge whether that falls in the category of "drugs"....

20:30 / 12.05.04

Sweat lodge is good stuff, provided you know folks who can present it the right ceremonial context. With any technique, how you use it is far more important than what it does on its own.

Adding to the list, ecstatic dance is good one I make much use of. Tattoos, too. You better believe 3+ hours of work will put you in some altered states of consciousness. To that end, similar body work like piercings, brandings, and hook suspensions can quite do the trick.

22:36 / 12.05.04

Based on my experiences with Kava Kava powder, I'd say it definitely falls into the category of a drug. The fact that it's legal in the UK anyway didn't seem to do much to stop my head from turning the colour of a traffic light, or me from gibbering away for a couple of hours to a complete stranger in the corner of a party... Though maybe that said it's not a social thing, nor especially something you should combine with booze.

I don't know much about actual magickal work in a practical sense, I've only read about it really, could never quite manage the suspension of disbelief( though I should do I know, purely as an experiment if nothing else, ) but don't a lot of these techniques, shamanic drumming for example, tend to work a bit better in an altered state ?

23:00 / 12.05.04

but don't a lot of these techniques, shamanic drumming for example, tend to work a bit better in an altered state ?
nope, not in my experience.
These techniques actually induce an altered state a.k.a. Shamanic State Of Consciousness (SSC) VERY similar to the altered states achieved via consumption of chemical substances.
many people in a sweatlodge for exacmple, see, hear, and are touched by actual spirits and such, it gets pretty "real", and typically no drugs are involved.
When I do drum travelling ( my preferred and most regular trip) I get quite far, and while I believe that psychadelic experiments with mushrooms, dmt, lsd have complimented my understanding of altered states and ability to enter them, no drugs are necessary to actually get the full effect.
I actually think that the drugs can take away from a controled navigation in the SSC.
In my experience insane experiments like casting sigils while smoking DMT or salvia have been interesting, frightening, extremely intense, but not really effective.

23:17 / 12.05.04

Yeah, fair enough. I wasn't so much talking about an extra-strong experience, as with DMT, salvia ( which I've never tried, though I've got to admit to being fairly curious - perhaps a seperate thread, ) more something nothing too awkward, that one's had before ? Which is to say, without wishing to get anyone into any trouble, low grade mushrooms, that sort of thing ?

13:39 / 13.05.04

FYI, Kava Kava when combined with alcohol drasticly increases in effect. Its not a combination one should ideally be messing with. A little dab will do you with that.

18:22 / 13.05.04

I recommend "whirling". However, you really have to keep it up...expect to feel terribly ill. Fasting and whirling are also an interesting mix, and cost nothing.

18:21 / 16.05.04

Where can i get this Kava Kava stuff and what exactly is it? I live in the North West

Nietzsch E. Coyote

18:32 / 18.05.04

I didn't notice my personal favorites so I'll add em.

Sleep Deprivation. You would have to experiment to find how it works for you but 5 to 8 days without sleep certainly opens you up to sensations of the other worlds.

For suspensions I and others have noticed that you don't even have to DO the suspension you can get a contact high with it that works nearly as well.

21:36 / 18.05.04

Where can i get this Kava Kava stuff and what exactly is it?
you get it at a health food store . whole food carries it.
it is a powder ground from the kava root in the fiji islands.
the natives there use it religiously for ceremonies do invoke visions pretty much every evening

00:10 / 19.05.04

How do you take it?

Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown

00:42 / 19.05.04

Glosalolia (sp?) is my preferred means of entering a trance. I just turn off the intelligble speak pattenrs and let random syllables pour out. With the right setting, the "tongues" eventually become almost hypnotic.

01:23 / 19.05.04

How do you take it?

grind it up a bit.
roll it in a sheet of linen or muslin and soak it in water to make tea.
drink.
when your lips go tingly, its on.
it tastes kinda nasty.

08:02 / 19.05.04

Speaking in Tongues is one of the best techniques, like, EVER. I can't remember if I've ever started a thread on it, and if not I think there deserves to be one.

18:40 / 19.05.04

How do you take it?

grind it up a bit.
roll it in a sheet of linen or muslin and soak it in water to make tea.

Best to use coconut milk or a mix of milk and water -- some of the kavalactones (the main psychoactives) are fat soluble. If you really want to go traditional, chew the root into pulp and spit it into the bowl of coconut milk -- the enzymes in saliva draw out even more kavalactones (I believe there are at least 15 different chemicals involved).

Good strong kava should numb the mouth and throat like novocaine.

More info here and here.

Expect vivid dreams.

~L

19:23 / 19.05.04

i think i had tourist kava...
man, is it impossible to be white and find a good and reliable tribal shaman geezer abroad? i think it might be. it's certainly very difficult.

my kava experiences were of a weak buzz that stimulted conversation at best.
probing questions on its uses were met with answers that suggested it was more akin to a few beers after work than a sacrament.

20:19 / 19.05.04

From what I've read the "few beers" analogy isn't a bad one -- kava used to be part of a pretty formal greeting/hospitality ritual which gradually became just a pleasant way to spend an evening with friends (the social effects have been compared to "really chill ecstasy"). I've only been able to find passing references to more "shamanic" uses, though the kava itself is certainly considered sacred in many places. It does apparently have some sensory-enhancing properties at high doses, and supposedly hallucinations/visions at even higher doses, but the body is also affected -- sluggishness or even partial paralysis of the limbs.

Perhaps not the best entheogen for a vision quest, but it might be just the thing to bond a working group or relax for some types of meditation or energy work (since the mind remains sharp and clear, just very. very. calm.).

Lastly, FWIW, it is also not uncommon for the first few times drinking kava to have little or no effect, so if you've tried it once or twice and didn't get anything from it, give it another shot.

~L

20:25 / 19.05.04

h3r: could you explain a little more what you mean by "drum travelling?"

Thanks.

~L

21:28 / 19.05.04

drum travelling:
someone bangs a drum in a certain frequency, and concetrating on that you sink into SSC. usually one visualizes a familiar "hole" in the earth and enters the planet there. then one travels inside the earth, through a cave or possibly '"swimming" through matter...various methods are available. at one point you reach the "plane" where other shamans go to, often its quite a happening there. this is where you then perform your healing work. before one build up experience it is common to just venture through vast cavesystems and maybe find blocked passages which will keep you from getting all the way...
buying one of those CDs and listening on headphones while lying still on the ground in adark or dimly lit space sorks great unless you have friend who know how to do the specific rhythm well. speed/frequency establishes the correct vibe, and a different "call" is implemented to wake you and bring you back from SSC.
do a google for Michael Harner, he is a bit of a authority on shamanism in a new agey way...there are many books on the subject which describe the practice well.

13:31 / 20.05.04

Thanks, h3r.

~L

11:58 / 04.03.05

The whole issue of VITALITY effecting consciousness is DEPLETION verses REPLETION.

As drugs drastically open your energy doors to let cosmic vitality into your body to revitalise a depleted former state of consciousness,and create a "high",
this can be done more gently and gradually with the aid of Spagyric medicines of Alchemy, which give you a "high" too. Try reading Alchemy.

19:41 / 04.03.05

Stoned Free by Douglas Rushkoff and Patrick Wells also has quite a few ideas in this direction.

-

22:13 / 04.03.05

how about starvation? is water allowed?

with sleep deprivation any suggestions for keeping yourself awake without caffine/stimulants? yesterday i was planted in font of this damn computer for 11 hours straight, barely eating, just reading, but don't know if i could do it for a whole week. or it better to be moving around?

i would love to do the deprivation tank but they're not exactly in the phone book. anyone tried one or actually bought one?

rising and revolving

23:29 / 04.03.05

i would love to do the deprivation tank but they're not exactly in the phone book. anyone tried one or actually bought one?

Sure they are! At least, they are round here. I've not done them, mainly because it's not too cheap and I've had budget issues since I've been in Montreal - but it's on my list.

Unconditional Love

11:35 / 09.03.05

hmmm, breathing.

breath into the lower stomach, pull lower stomach in, until breath is in the upper lungs, chest expands, take in short breathes to the upper chest, hold for as long as you can, push the air out violently through the mouth, repeat until uncomfortable.

breath through alternate nostrils in through left hold out through right hold in through right hold out through left hold.

deep breathing into the back of the lower lungs, stomach deflats, sometimes called taoist breathing, also used by some opera singers for max inflation.

breath retention in general, especially on the outward breath leads to an altered state, but initially induces panic, with time this is overcome.

Skeleton Camera

13:56 / 09.03.05

breath retention in general, especially on the outward breath leads to an altered state, but initially induces panic, with time this is overcome.

THAAAAT'S good to hear. My breathwork has always led to alteration-through-panic. I never termed it panic, though, as it was always an extremely positive (euphoric) state accompanied by surges of energy. But "panic" isn't far off. And it has been inhibiting my breathwork.
This is tremendously synchronicitous, too - my day is laid out!

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

19:04 / 09.03.05

breathe breathe breathe.

I found that particularly hot curries (and I mean enamel-melting HOT) have sent me into unexpected states of delight and awareness, visions and waking dreams. It took me a couple of hours to eat a single bowlful on each of these occasions. A pain ritual that holds the key to pleasure.

Where we draw the lines between food, drugs, medicine remains incidental. It's all ingestion, as much as ideas, emotions, nutrients, toxins, alkaloids, light, heat are...

and if it doesn't facilitate your trance, at least you're fed.

ultimately, having ingested a wide variety of things over the years, all of it proved to be a reminder of our innate powers of perception. We don't need drugs. We just like 'em.

=)
pablo

23:16 / 09.03.05

I'd be careful with Kava Kava. Recent studies suggest it could do permanent damage to the liver.