BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Salutations!

 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
10:21 / 12.05.04
Right, I'm hoping to pick your collective brains here.

Having not been in the job market for a while, I now find myself in the position of wanting to apply for a promotion at my current workplace.

All applications should be addressed to the group personnel director, a woman whose marriage status is unknown to me. This begs my question, how do I address my letter to her. Is it 'Dear Ms >surname<'? Is it 'Dear >forename<'?

What's the correct etiquette in such a situation when penning a formal letter to a female?

Your help would be massively appreciated. Cheers.
 
 
Grey Area
10:25 / 12.05.04
I've always been told that when in doubt, write 'Mrs.', the theory being that someone who's married would take greater objection to being called 'Ms.'.
 
 
Unencumbered
10:28 / 12.05.04
In formal letters to women I always use 'Ms.' unless I have some correspondence from them in which they've signed themselves differently.
 
 
Psi-L is working in hell
10:29 / 12.05.04
i've taken to calling up the secretary/PA of the person i'm writing to and asking how they prefer to be addressed...slightly embarrassing, but it does mean you get it right, you can always ask for the correct address at the same time so you're not just asking about the name. Of course if she doesn't have a PA then ignore everything i've just said...i wouldn't call her by her first name unless you know her, or the company you work in a quite an informal place...whatever happens, good luck with the application.
 
 
Ex
11:00 / 12.05.04
I've always been told that when in doubt, write 'Mrs.', the theory being that someone who's married would take greater objection to being called 'Ms.'.

Interesting psychological manouvers - but I'm straining to think how the wrath of any married woman would exceed mine if I was addressed as 'Mrs'.

Ring the PA. I keep having to phone up about job applications that are to be sent to titles, rather than people; OK, you address it "The Dean, Fishcakes College" but what does the letter say? "Dear Dean" sounds very odd (and not a little snuggly).
 
 
Loomis
11:23 / 12.05.04
I agree with Unencumbered. I would never use Miss or Mrs unless the person has already identified herself that way. Ms is not to be used simply for when the marital status is unknown; as far as I know it is always a correct term in and of itself.
 
 
Char Aina
11:27 / 12.05.04
i have known people to become offended by the use of ms. instead of mrs.
i think its more because everything seems to be offensive to someone, and not because it is necessarily wrong.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
11:45 / 12.05.04
A letter writing quandary doth raise its ugly countenance. Verily. Like.
Damn you Thor!!!
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:38 / 12.05.04
although I agree that a) you should call the PA and b) some people will simply find a reason to be offended, if a) fails you, then definitely Ms.

that's how I prefer to be addressed, for starters.
 
 
Ariadne
12:49 / 12.05.04
Agreed on Ms. It irritates me when I get a letter to either Miss or Mrs - what do they base the assumption on?

And interesting that Mrs is chosen ahead of Miss -- is being married a superior status? So Misses don't mind being called Mrs, but Mrss get offended that someone thinks they're single?

The whole point of Ms is that your marital status is irrelevant, so yes, I'd say use that. Although calling the PA, if there is one, is probably a good move.
 
 
Bed Head
12:51 / 12.05.04
I think it’s a shame there’s no equivalent for the chaps. I like using ‘Ms’. Mzzzzzz. I’d quite like to be called Mrrrr. Offices would be much nicer environments if the non-marrieds - and the enlightened few who don’t make such a big fucking deal out of being married - all went around purring at each other like lazy cats. That'd show 'em who's the coolest.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:29 / 12.05.04
Someone told me the other day that Ms. was originally supposed to be non-gender specific. If so, that's something to revive - but not on job applications until it's a bit more widely known.

I have friends who strenuously object to Ms., though, so I'd go with asking a PA if there is one.

Tricky stuff.
 
 
Ariadne
14:31 / 12.05.04
Why do they object to Ms? Are they "Gosh, no, I'm not a feminist!" types, or do they have another reason?
 
 
Ganesh
15:02 / 12.05.04
Ms. Always.
 
 
grant
15:05 / 12.05.04
New can of worms:

With or without the period at the end?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:07 / 12.05.04
It gave me a happy when Oxford sent me a letter addressed to 'Dr' Club... they of all people should know I am not one... So I have decided that I prefer 'Dr' to 'Ms', but I don't know how your personnel manager person would take that.

In all other circs I am another person saying, use 'Ms', much much better than using 'Mrs', every time.
 
 
Ariadne
15:08 / 12.05.04
Well, I don't put a period after Miss or Mrs or Mr -so, without.
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
15:45 / 12.05.04
Thanks all, for your responses.

There is no PA, so I think I'm going to have to plump for 'Ms'. I'm just hoping that she's not so sensitive that her judment isn't affected by what she considers to be an inappropriate salutation.

I'm definitely going to refer to myself as Mrrrrrrrrr HoverDonkey from now on, though.

Thanks for the good wishes too, barbeloids, it's not a job I particularly want, but it'll be a ticket out of my current employers due to added CV value. More work, though, so not entirely positive.
 
 
Loomis
15:53 / 12.05.04
Recently I happened to be buying something off an online wedding list at John Lewis, and in the section where you had to enter your personal details, they had a scroll down menu of titles. That's not so unusual - usually you get the standard Mr, Miss, Mrs, Ms, Dr ... but this one had about 20, including Reverend, Rt. Honourable ... and even, I shit you not, HRH. You don't know how tempted I was to use that one, but I had a moment of fear as to whether I could be done for identity fraud or impersonating the royal family or something. And me without my ID card and all.
 
 
Jester
16:04 / 12.05.04
Go for Ms.

Even more annoying than being addressed by Miss or Mrs rather than Ms is being called Mr. You would be surprised how often that happens with random letters. Maybe it's because Jess is a boys name too (but not in the UK so much?)///
 
 
Loomis
16:10 / 12.05.04
So Jester, should we address you as Ms. Ter?
 
 
Loomis
16:11 / 12.05.04
I just realized what a poor joke that was, but it was too late to stop the reply screen publishing my banality to the world ...
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:55 / 12.05.04
Many people are using 'Dear Firstname Lastname' as a way round the no-PA-to-ask problem. It sounds clunky. But Ms. can really rub someone up the wrong way if they of a conservative bent or have just got married. Or been widowed.
 
 
Jester
19:07 / 12.05.04
First name last name sounds like the way to go then. I still don't really understand why ms. would be offensive to anyone (except for the example of the person who has just been widowed, and I imagine that it would be more of an emotional thing than an offense thing).

Ms. Ter is terrible Loomis
 
 
pomegranate
19:51 / 12.05.04
i say ms. w/a period. just like dr., mr. and mrs. who doesn't use a period after those? is it another british thing?
i don't think people should be offended by ms.; i think it's the most politically correct thing to do.
also, make sure the person is really a female. don't get faked out by non-gender specific names!
you could also go w/the good old "to whom it may concern" route...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:53 / 12.05.04
For what it's worth;

To Whom It May Concern is the best way to go with a complete stranger, but a bit less good if you're actually applying to someone specific. Unless you're writing your will, which presumably career-wise seems a bit premature.

So I'd go for Ms, but without the full stop.

Really though, and it is a genuine concern in these situations, don't get me wrong, but isn't it absurd that this is such a big deal ? I can see how Miss or Mrs might be construed as being offensive, since you might be mistaken for someone who's making assumptions about you're correspondant's lifestyle, which you'd have no right to make, or, let's face it, any real interest in actually making, since the point of the letter is getting the job, but isn't Ms there to get around all of that ?
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
21:45 / 12.05.04
The letter is written, and a fucking fine one it is, too. Damn, I'd promote me!

The letter begins 'Dear Ms Xxxxx', so if I don't get the job I can rest assured it's all down to that missing full stop and not the fact that I'm a clueless, procrastinating, workshy slacker who can't even spell KPI, never mind achieve one.

Right, now where did I leave my nose de-browner?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
22:31 / 12.05.04
Not that it's relevant any more, but I think you're right with the no full stop thing, and here's why (fellow punctuation fascists please correct me if I'm wrong):

Mr. and Mrs. are contractions, respectively of M(iste)r and, I think, M(ist)r(es)s, hence they need full stops.

Miss doesn't, cos I think it's complete in itself.

I have no idea what Ms is short for, if anything - but again, as it's a made up word, see Miss.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:40 / 12.05.04
Ah-hah! Except that the full stop is used to signify that letters are missing from the end of a word in abbreviation - etc., i.e., esp.. Mr and Dr have letters missing from the middle, so do not take a full stop at the end.

Discuss. Really loudly.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:53 / 12.05.04
I'm not sure I'd punctuate Mr or Mrs, just cause whatever the rights or wrongs of the semantic origins, they don't these days seem to work on the page. Insofar as Mr. Happy, Mr. Lazy, Mr. Quite-Stoned-And-Really-It's-Time-He-Crashed-Out... It's not quite the same.
 
 
pomegranate
13:47 / 13.05.04
I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU WACKY BRITS. ms. magazine uses the period, that's good enough for me.
 
 
*
23:19 / 13.05.04
I prefer to address all of my correspondence with the salutation Gentleperson (or Gentlething when the correspondent's humanity may be in doubt, such as letters to corporate representatives). According to Gentleperson Manners, this should always be written out in formal correspondence, but when one has reached the point of intimacy wherein less formality is appropriate-- such as informing the correspondent that one believes ta to in fact have rotting cabbage for brains, or in requesting intimate physical relations with teir left nostril-- one may abbreviate, i.e. Gp. or Gt. (pron. gyp or git).
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
22:36 / 14.05.04
I'm bloody glad you weren't my first and only respondent, Gt.
 
  
Add Your Reply