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The Geneva Convention

 
 
Loomis
16:16 / 11.05.04
The Geneva Convention. We've all heard about it and we tend to assume that it is both necessary and respected. The Iraq torture scandal has proved that the latter is not the case, so how about the former? Is it an oxymoron to draft rules for war?

The pictures from Iraq have given me plenty to think about, but the responses even more so. I can't help but think that the soldiers are being used as scapegoats to direct our anger towards while the soldiers bombing and killing indiscriminately are seemingly above blame. How do we draw the line between their actions? Why is it the act of a monster to lead a captive around by a leash but to send thousands to the next world in a variety of agonizing ways, from bullets to bombs, starvation and suicide, is within the bounds of civilized behaviour?

It seems to me that this is a throwback to notions of civilized combat that supposedly obtained once upon a time. March out to a field at an appointed time, fight till one sight retreats, then go back home for toast and tea satisfied that you taught the others a lesson. I heartily doubt that warfare was ever like that, and it is certainly not like that now.

Furthermore, I have been wondering this afternoon whether is not only the case that "normal" people put in such circumstances will act in this way due to the environment and their experiences (as in the prison experimenets mentioned inthe other threads), but that it may in fact be a necessary state for combatants to be in. You have to dehumanize the enemy in order to fight them effectively. If you can see their humanity then it will make it difficult to do the many things you will be called upon to do as a soldier, and the slightest hesitation to do these things can cost you your life or that of your fellow soldiers who rely upon you.

I believe that all wars will of necessity include such incidents, just as all wars will result in the death of many civilians, by accident and by design. If you support a war, then you support all of these actions, plain and simple. If you think a cause is noble enough to go to war over, then not only are you accepting that many combatants will be killed, but you are accepting that torture will take place and civilians will die. It is a given from before the first shot is fired.

So these are just my general rambling thoughts, not very well organized as usual. But onto the specifics of the Geneva Convention ...

I don't think it's too idealistic to have some general rules, outlawing practices such as ethnic cleansing and systematic killing of civilians, such that when a war is over those involved in such practices can be brought to trial within an established framework. But I think many of the rules governing prisoners of war are fairly unrealistic. On a battlefield you try and kill as many of the enemy as you can, but after the final whistle you become a war criminal if you kill those same people. Torture is one thing, but I don't see how executing prisoners is any different to killing them in battle. If you think they are a security risk to you or if you simply cannot afford the spare food and shelter for them (obviously not relevant in this war but certainly has been the case throughout history), then I don't see how execution is monstrous. I'd rather that myself than to be shot in combat and lie bleeding in a ditch and die after an agonizing three days from loss of blood.

It's also against the Convention to kill someone who is wounded. Well who the fuck was trying to wound them in the first place? Aren't you aiming to kill them? Can such an arbitrary line be drawn?

Same goes for the dignity thing. Dehumanizing prisoners for your own enjoyment is adolescent and cheap, but victors have paraded through the streets with captives and spoils for as long as humanity has existed. It doesn't seem so unnatural to me. If it's civilized to invade a country and destroy half of it, then taking a photo of yourself holding a captured enemy soldier on a leash is hardly worth mentioning.

Again, I think these actions are all horrible, but I am suggesting that they are no more horrible than every other part of this war, to which they are in my view inextricably linked. The whole affair is one double decker shit sandwich. But carrying out such an invasion and then appealing to laws of civilized combat is more than faintly ridiculous to me. In our society people get the shit kicked out of them for spilling someone's pint, so pushing someone around and humiliating them when they were shooting at you only the day before does not seem the act of a monster.

Hmmm. I'm not normally someone who blames crime on society rather than the people who commit the acts, but there's just something about the reaction to these pictures that unsettles me. Perhaps the Geneva Convention makes it too easy for us to pat ourselves on the back for not being like "them", when we were the ones who created them. I dunno. Maybe my moral compass has spent too long in a drawer next to a box of magnets. Have I missed the whole point?
 
 
Loomis
16:46 / 11.05.04
Mods, feel free to move this to the Headshop if you like. I started it here because it was related to issues that came up in the Iraq threads ...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:06 / 11.05.04
Well I suppose the argument is that pretty much regardless of the rights and wrongs of your being there in the first place, in a combat situation what you as a soldier are attempting to do is get you and your section out in one piece, which a lot of the time is going to ( apparently ) necessitate shooting whatever moves in your immediate vicinity, if it's not immediately identifiable as being on your side. And that given those circumstances, it's hardly surprising that appalling things happen. Whereas once you're no longer actually fighting for your life, as it were, and especially if the side you're on is supposedly engaged in a " moral " war, you have to be seen to be upholding certain standards, otherwise you've got no business being there, and particularly not if your treatment of prisoners/wounded etc seems more than anything likely to prolong the conflict. So okay, sure, there's a certain hypocrisy involved in this as a position, as in the examples you mentioned, but I'd still tend to think that virtually anything's better than total war, the sole point of which is to crush the enemy, whatever it takes. Otherwise, to a certain extent, why not just nuke them ?
 
 
Jester
21:44 / 11.05.04
Loomis, I think you're pointing out a completely valid hypocrisy in the whole thing.

I think key to the public's response to the incidents of torture and abuse is that because of new technologies and interconnectedness and accountability, the general public has been confronted with that other hypocricy: that a war to liberate is fundamentally impossible.

Since the dawn of time we've romanticised war: whether its a notion of your country you're fighting for, or bringing democracy (or any of those other types of 'civilisation' one group of people has been imposing on another). But previous generations had some notion of what war was like: it was just as likely to be fought on their soil as on someone elses, and technology was to a great degree evenly distibuted. If your country went to war, you stood to loose your relatives, your own life, etc. The horrors of war were on your doorstep. The new form of Warfare, for the west, involves a relatively small slice of the population. It involves soldiers deploying weaponry far in advance of its enemy, reducing the risk of their own death and multipying the risk of death for their enemies. And yet this has gone hand in hand with a move away from the idea of war explicitly fought for power or land. Now our armies fight for ideals - ok, this isn't new, but it's put into a new context by all of those ways I've just listed that war isn't an equal risk venture anymore.

So, put all of these elements into the pot and you come out with a general public who *expects* the army on the one hand to fight the enemy and win, but on the other hand expects the army to act in occordance to their civilian values. Because the vast majority of people are not in a position to have militarisitic values, like they would if they were actually fearful for their own safety.

Its interesting how this relates to how the anti war movement used the UN as a tool to avert the war though. As though if the UN said it was ok, then the war would be alright...
 
 
TeN
00:13 / 12.05.04
"Is having rules for war an oxymoron[?]"
yes

"[D]o we need them to (ideally) prevent soldiers going over the edge and turning from combatants into torturers[?]"
yes

the thing is, war is such a nonsensical thing in the first place that no part of it makes any sense whatsoever.

we have two options - we either eliminate war (which is vitually impossible), or we make it without rules (which is barbaric)
 
 
grant
14:49 / 12.05.04
It might be useful to think of the GC not as "rules for war" but more as the legal outline for war crimes prosecutions. They are, essentially, the line in the sand past which, we've decided, there really isn't much excuse to go.
 
 
Loomis
20:51 / 12.05.04
So, put all of these elements into the pot and you come out with a general public who *expects* the army on the one hand to fight the enemy and win, but on the other hand expects the army to act in occordance to their civilian values. Because the vast majority of people are not in a position to have militarisitic values, like they would if they were actually fearful for their own safety.

Absolutely. That's the separation of values that I'm concerned about - the spurious separation of civilian and combatant. I just can't see how it can be upheld in any other than a very general way. And I think that the GC enforces this invalid separation of values.

It might be useful to think of the GC not as "rules for war" but more as the legal outline for war crimes prosecutions.

Yeah I'd agree with that, but again, I think it leads us into "us and them" territory, whereby we punish soldiers for some acts but not for others which in my opinion, and no doubt in the opinion of many others, are equally wrong. It seems to make it too easy to find scapegoats which by extension condones the behaviour of the rest of the army.

I am concerned that it bequeaths a situation in which it is "barbaric" to behead one man but justifiable to impose sanctions on Syria which could potentially cause thousands of deaths as they did in Iraq. Any set of values that supports these judgements needs to be questioned.
 
 
sleazenation
21:50 / 12.05.04
It seems to me that the GC offers a halfway house between the values of civilized civillian society and the all-out anarchy of total war.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:22 / 13.05.04
The GC is there to protect soldiers- to give them a chance to survive combat and to try and stem the kind of bloodshed and death that was seen in the Great War. The point is that war does dehumanize people in the eyes of the people fighting and the reason that the GC is so important is that it doesn't let that go as far as it could. It's there for the soldier's psych benefit as well as the benefit of civilians.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
17:52 / 16.05.04
Torture is one thing, but I don't see how executing prisoners is any different to killing them in battle.
& It's also against the Convention to kill someone who is wounded. Well who the fuck was trying to wound them in the first place? Aren't you aiming to kill them? Can such an arbitrary line be drawn?
When a soldier is too injured to fight or has surrendered and is no longer a threat then there's no justification to shoot them. If the enemy knows that they are going to be tortured and shot if captured then they are less likely to do so, also they are more less likely to shoot your wounded and POWs (in theory).
 
 
Loomis
13:25 / 17.05.04
When a soldier is too injured to fight or has surrendered and is no longer a threat then there's no justification to shoot them.

I disagree. War is about a lot more than shooting people. Supply, logistics and cost are often determining factors, and if you have to feed prisoners, clothe them, house them and guard them, that can be a precious waste of resources that could endanger the lives of your own soldiers as much as enemy bullets. And to label someone a war criminal for following this line of reasoning seems a perversion of the central idea of the convention, which I take to be, as Grant says, a basis for prosecution for wartime excesses after the war is over.

Speaking of which, let's take another tack in examining the relevance of the GC: does the winning side ever get prosecuted? Could the GC simply be another means by which the winners further subjugate the losers? I mean of course "we" always win, don't we? And we prosecuted the war criminals in Germany and Serbia, but what about the crimes "we" committed in achieving those victories? When do they get punished under the GC?
 
 
Jester
14:59 / 17.05.04
Loomis, of course, 'we' never have been punished. That's what's makes the new International court interesting, because it allows for the prosecution of the winners by the losers in a fairly objective forum. Of course, the US hasn't signed up to it meaning we can't really test its effectiveness.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
15:37 / 17.05.04
The logistics of warfare is I know a major factor but a lot of work goes into calculating quantities of stores and POWs are taken into consideration.
Also the holding areas will be far to the rear (in theory)where logistics is a smaller problem. Of course this does depend on the scenario.
Besides there is (I'm told)a great difference in shooting at a target that is trying to kill you than a human being that is begging for their life. Remember a Soldier is still a human being, he is still a product of the society that they come from.
In recent conflicts battles have been avoided because the opostition were more afraid to fight then surrender.

I think also that the GC is also aimed at helping to return the countries involved to normality as quickly as possible.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
17:23 / 17.05.04
Remember a Soldier is still a human being

I figure this is the spirit of the GC. Of course it is difficult to consider that when people are shooting at you, or to feed and clothe the guy who did so yesterday.
Sure, it would be far easier to slaughter your way to your objective, killing everyone who is not on your side until, one way or another, there is only one side left.

But don't confuse "easy" with "better", and certainly not with "necessary". It is easy for a soldier to shoot everything that moves. It is better to try to avoid shootingcivilians, pets, aid agencies etc, because we are supposed to be the good guys, and should avoid killing people if possible. It is necessary to try and avoid shooting your own allies.

The GC acknowledges that all wars end (except maybe the war against terror), and that there will be judgements made. There *should* be judgements made. And if that will not happen in a court of law I would hope that at least all those involved, the brass and the grunts, have a moment of introspection. The GC provides a good basis for this.

You say that rules of war are an oxymoron, I say they are a necessity. If we want to consider ourselves civilised, we have to be able to justify the pain and suffering we choose to apply to those around us, and that applies to any form of authority. Without standards like the GC it becomes impossible to even approach a definition of just conduct in wartime, and if our means are corrupt any moral justification we may have had for *going* to war is automatically tarnished, if not negated entirely.

The hypocracy only kicks in if you believe that war, and most other forms of conflict for that matter, are ultimately unnecessary. I would love to live in a world like that, but I don't see it from where I'm standing.

So until we find a way to get by without slapping other people, I'd quite like some advice on how to be one of the good guys.

By the way, by making it harder to conduct war 'properly', you're effectively reducing the likelyhood of war...
 
 
Loomis
20:11 / 17.05.04
I just had a thought that the GC reminds me a little of cop movies, where the good guy never kills anyone in cold blood. The writers of these movies realize that they can't let the villain live, so they usually engineer a situation where the hero is forced to defend himself by killing the villain, so that honour is satisfied and everyone is happy. And of course we can see how transparent it all is. Killing the villain in cold blood would not suddenly make the hero a war criminal. I see that same fiction in the GC, especially because I feel confident betting anything you like on the fact that no winning army has ever stopped short of gruesome deeds on their path to victory. And I would also guarantee you that had we lost WWII, Churchill et all would be the ones convicted of war crimes, and they'd be guilty too. I bet the Brits tortured plenty of Nazis to gain information, but what was the alternative - being defeated by Nazi Germany? Would that be preferable? Both options are unpalatable, but what would you choose if you were there? War is horrible in all its forms, and if the painful death of a few enemy prisoners saves the lives of thousands of your men, what choice would you make?

I can see where you guys are coming from, and I can see the reasoning behind the GC, but to be honest I can't see how it deters anybody from doing anything. After all, you simply assume that you're going to win, don't you? And therefore you won't be tried. I think if you're predisposed to treat POWs decently then you will, and if you're not then the GC won't deter you for more than a moment, as we've seen by this scandal in Iraq, if any proof were needed.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:35 / 18.05.04
Laws never stop anyone doing anything, it is only the threat of prosecution that has real effect. At least, unless people are already concerned with the morality and justice of their actions.
Oh, and in your example, the cop would be prosecuted for killing in cold blood, by the same simplistic morality that is supposed to make us feel warm and fuzzy about the self-defence option.

Do you think the GC would have been considered, at least, if there was a genuine risk of US citizens being tried at the ICC for war-crimes?
 
 
Z. deScathach
05:15 / 28.05.04
IMO the real issue isn't whether the GC provides deterrence. I seriously doubt that it does, just as the death penalty has never been showed to truly deter murder. The real point behind the GC is it's value as a statement. I find the presented argument behind the GC's fallacy interesting as it simultaneously talks abut the inhumanity of fighting a war, but then argues for the execution of prisoners on the basis that feeding and housing them is a drain on resources. What the GC does is confirm the humanity of who we are fighting. Is the fight worthwhile..... most frequently not, at least in recent history. In terms of Churchill being prosecuted for war crimes, I would much rather, as a lesbian, be living under the present government, then Hitler's. The GC at least entreats us to behave in a humane fashion. Will we fall below the mark? Yes, but personally I would not desire to live in a world that states as, a matter of policy, "Anything, up to and beyond the most brutal, goes.........."
 
  
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