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Cyber Shamanism

 
 
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23:43 / 09.05.04
I mean as in actually getting down to the work of being a real Cyber Shaman/Shaman (same thing) instead of calling yourself one and thinking it's cool or whatever.

I got this from Fusion Anomaly (ha! that place, i'm always reading cool stuff whenever i go there.) it was the next quote down from something i quoted in another thread in here :

A modern shaman is a shaman in the 21st century...code name: Cyber Shaman. From the Greek, Cyber is a pilot. A modern shaman is an individual of power interacting with "spirits," triggering Knowledge, Vision, Technology and Advanced Fun.


I'm thinking that as time goes on the actual roles of the Shaman could be changed quite a lot. For instance 'spirits' triggering knowledge and vision could be used as art at the same time as searching for info about the world(s) around us, also that art could come under healing, especially in the form of stories that have healing/learning/initiation to those that want to follow the threads in them or actually get magickally immersed in the experience. (Hypersigils etc as just one of the many healing tools of the Cyber Shaman)

As the world moves from tribes and nature as we knew it to modern day life, how much have the duties of the Shaman grown to include art, or haven't they, or have they always been like this and we don't have enough info to decide yes or no?

I feel drawn and drawn to Shamanism but i think the scope of what that entails is a lot wider and can be a lot different than what is generally read/heard about nowadays.

One more example : Terrence Mckenna thought that we could be evolving to a meeting point with these 'machine elves' who speak artforms and create images with words, wow some of you have even seen this stuff, it must be amazing : Could there be a massive need right now for up and coming Shamans to take on the role of learning how to use this as a living skill beyond or even without DMT as a means of advancing the collective art energies of the worlds population in general, as a means to a meeting point with other life that will emerge in the near future?

I know DMT is often said to be a need in being able to understand these things and just saying this reminds me of the fact that you need a teacher to learn a martial art, but surely there's gonna come a day, or it's already here, when people/shamans/witches etc can actually enter these states at will in something like a natural evolutionary stage of humanity.

This is only one aspect that i'm thinking of though. The idea of searching for knowledge/ attuning to the right energies and generally learning and seeing some amazing stuff on the other planes via trance/meditation is another aspect that i already have some experience in, and this is what's drawn me to the idea of this more than anything else.


Like the quote said aswell : Advanced fun. Hasn't somebody made Shamanism appear dull or is it just me or the fact that i live in a mainly Christian religion country? (with no negative intent to Christianity)

I bet Shamanism can be a balance between healing and helping the people around you and having a totally insane laugh aswell, and that it needs to be for the sake of the Shaman's mental health.
 
 
Seth
08:40 / 10.05.04
In what way is any of that different to how shamanism has always been, back into prehistory?
 
 
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09:42 / 10.05.04
Well i had the idea that a Shaman just visited the otherworld to get the assistance of healing spirits that helped to physically heal people's bodies but that's changed now, so i'm feeling better. Erm, maybe i didn't read very much on the subject, or maybe the most popular hits for Shamanism on google gave that impression.

I'm sure they just seem to concentrate on the idea that a Shaman does that one thing to heal people instead of talking and explaining about some of the other things. I guess it's a case of i read too much and didn't realize the other things about it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:42 / 10.05.04
I know DMT is often said to be a need in being able to understand these things

I wouldn't say it would be a pre-requisite. (Flippant voice- I've had decent results- in terms of communing with other entities- from ketamine and salvia...) The chemicals are a shortcut... one I tend to take cos I'm lazy in my practices, but not the only way.

This stuff (yay, even unto the going to the spirit world and bringing back knowledge) CAN be achieved without drugs... it's just much harder work. Probably more worthwhile, though.

Back to the DMT thing- bear in mind, this is pretty much the same chemical your brain produces when dreaming... (hence the wonder that is sleep deprivation-induced hallucinations) maybe work on that.
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:41 / 11.05.04
Another thing that has to be realized in terms of the use of substances in order to accomplish these aims is that governments are resorting to some enormously draconian methods to suppress them. I don't know about other countries, but here in the states, possessing certain substances can get you locked up for years and years, in some cases more years than if you had killed somebody. Relying on a physical substance brings in the possibility of physical intervention, and thus gives government a chance to bring what it sees as a threatening force under control. Shamanism and magick are threatening to power structures, because they imply abilities that lie outside of the governing body's locus of control. Fortunately the government has not been able to monitor internal mental states, (some conspiracy theorists may disagree, but at least they are not arresting you for it), but it can and does monitor substances.

In terms of cyber-shamanism, just what are we talking about here? The prefix "cyber" intimates digital technology, and even the cybernetic magickal models refer to information technology. Personally, I've felt that magick done with the use of info-tech has been way under-practiced. The technology clearly exists to set up groups that facilitate magick over the internet.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:17 / 11.05.04
I'm not sure that the technology actually does exist. For "cyber-shamanism" to be anything more than a meaningless buzzword it would need to be some form of application of shamanic methods to cyberspace. Perhaps communing with Spirits that might exist exclusively within the domain of the world wide web. The internet doesn't really function like William Gibson's cyberspace yet, we don't really jack ourselves in to an immersive world that operates like a technological version of the astral plane. To a large extent, I think that internet magic is not far removed from something like telephone or postal system magic. I'm not sure if a group facilitating magic over the internet would be any more interesting than a group facilitating magic over the phone.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:32 / 11.05.04
hi,
not exactly cyber shamanism more cyber sigil bombs,
i got this idea by watching annoying porn bots in yahoo chat about a year ago.
basically if you can get hold of one and the sites are out there get a yahoo spammer and create a cut up mantric phrase rather than a pictorial sigil and then charge the phrase on screen and and procede to being an annoying bastard in yahoo chat by bombing all of its public and user rooms, create a one use i.d.

make the i.d symbolic of the intent also.

there seem to be all sorts of possibilities for computer magic but with the communication of spirits from the net i am not sure. the way my pc behaves sometimes thou does make me think a little. also depends on how you define spirit, if seen as complex meme structures then possible, i prefer to think of the net as a reflection of the human spirit and in that way it is a great tool for exploring and interacting with that spirit in the form of expression and information.
 
 
h3r
19:00 / 11.05.04
Advanced fun. Hasn't somebody made Shamanism appear dull or is it just me or the fact that i live in a mainly Christian religion country?
interestingly enough shamanism is a commen and almost identical "phenomena" (yet developed completely independ from each other)in various cultures (native american, siberian, aleuts, maoris, jivaros, tuvan, etc).
In any given society the Healer/Shaman is essential to sustain an equilibrium for the tribe. "Fun" does not have anything to do with it IMO.
but I dont know why it would appear dull?
recent development of "cyber shamanism" might lead to balancing out western culture, as people like mckenna and also gibson envisioned it. But I do think that the added "cyber" is a bit misleading and can not be seen as a substitute for the actual intrinsic element of HEALING. experimenting and having fun outside the boundaries of what passes for reality in our current culture can be exciting, fun and hopefully aid in the adaptation (devolution?) of more holistic world views (back to the roots of tribal society basically), but does not pass as shamanism.....

I bet Shamanism can be a balance between healing and helping the people around you and having a totally insane laugh aswell, and that it needs to be for the sake of the Shaman's mental health.
I believe the traditional role/function of the shaman is ALL about healing (members of the tribe and as a byproduct the world as a whole). and thats typically no fun at all, but rather painful and difficult. but somebody's gotta do it.
Exploring other realities, inducing NEDs, etc I do not consider shamanism. I have been put into place by some members of the Lakota tribe, and have learned to be a bit more humble about my own "shamanism" or lack thereof....

this is not to say that there is certain excitement/beauty/appreciation of existence/etc involved in shamanic practices. I did feel like stressing though, that IMO "fun" is not an essential ingrediant and definitely not a desirable motivation.

Parallel to this: my understanding of the practice of magick is quite the same, and to my knowledge also western occult orders (B.O.T.A., O.T.O., Golden Dawn, various masonic lodges) have the primary goal of healing the whole planet/mankind. The "cool" stuff is a byproduct of healing the planet....
 
 
Skeleton Camera
21:45 / 11.05.04
As far as I understand it, the idea of cybershamanism is that certain 'cyber'-technology can be used to create shamanic experiences. The words sounds romantic. Makes you want a pair of welding goggles and lots of trippy techno scoring your every move. But in practicality of course it's less hot. (Which isn't to say it can't BE hot, but it's not like "Hey! I'm a cybershaman!" Gotta do the work.)

(Now that that's done with...sorry, more for mine own sake than a shot at anyone.)

As for it being a path or a way of some sort, I hate to reiterate what seems like gospel at this point but...it's just as easy or hard or painful or fun as any other. The question is, does it do anything? The ideas involved (that I've encountered): cyberspace can be used as an alternate 'astral' plane, and thus the shaman can operate within cyberspace to heal or interact with spirits. I haven't encountered anything specifying whether those cyberspirits are different from the spirits encountered in a traditional ritual.
The other angle is a bit less dense. Technology lets you create consciousness-altering tools more easily than the usual methods. So you get techno and trance specifically designed to alter brainwave function. You get various frequencies being used to alter bodily or mental states. Images can be cut and replayed with such ease on digital technology that the possibility of making trance-inducing video loops is more accessible than previously. And with these loops, the imagery you use could pertain to your desired outcome for the trance.

Psychick TV (spelling?) and Genesis P-Orridge use a lot of digital and techy magick in their work. I'm not too familiar with it, though.
 
 
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01:19 / 12.05.04
The prefix "cyber" intimates digital technology, and even the cybernetic magickal models refer to information technology.

For "cyber-shamanism" to be anything more than a meaningless buzzword it would need to be some form of application of shamanic methods to cyberspace.


This is exactly what i thought myself and has been why i've been avoiding it really but when i saw the part i quoted above about the actual word Cyber being from the Greek 'Pilot', and read the bit about spirits triggering knowledge and visions i thought that it could mean something less tied up with technology as an actual tool in workings.

Mckenna is one of the people i've been thinking about a bit lately, the other two being RAW and Timothy Leary.

Mckenna had a lot of DMT experience where he'd go on journeys into Hyperspace or whatever you want to call it and meet other beings and Wilson among many other things has these wierd experiences that lead him to places like Chapel Perilous and a really good sense of humour that comes across in his writing, and Tim Leary had his 8-circuit model that went on to be included in RAW's Cosmic Trigger (the first time i came across it) and a great deal of the Cybercraft manual, which i'll get to in a minute. These could be just three of the many things that could be archetypes, or guiding/reference points for people approaching something like the idea of the mindset of the Cyber Shaman, and that are parts of the journey. Something that as time goes on and in the Western world is becoming a lot different than Shamanism in the past in other places.

Chapel P is meant to be some sort of modern day equivalent of the nature of some of the many initiation experiences that we have, or like some sort of converging point for a lot of them, Mckenna's journey's and meeting with other beings could be something that produces inspiration and creativity along with a special type of insight that gives a better perspective into the evolution/development of Humanity in the near future, and Leary's 8-circuit model of consciousness could be one example of a type of guide and map (not too different from elemental systems and kabbalistic planes) of where to go and what to do to effectively de-program massive amounts of the stuff that we get conditioned or taught nowadays that's supposed to pass off as knowledge.

Going back to the Cybercraft manual, that also includes the 8-circuits, it goes into how we have so many things taught to us and imposed on our feelings/emotions and then describes how to use it to reach the same goal of deprogramming concepts/idea's etc that aren't right for you, but it ties it in with the Cyberlord/lady and i think it gives some really good descriptions of the problems that we have and how to tackle them.

Seeing as the type of life we live is so different than what Shamans had to live with, aspects like cities and technology, i think that having a laugh and knowing how to feel better, being creative through art/music/writing etc and finding inspiration, and obtaining knowledge/having visions connected with other beings/spirits could be things that are included in the actual development of the Cyber Shaman, so that they can attune to different dimensions of creativity that through things like art, music and writing would help other people see these visions and other dimensions and help them be inspired too. This doesn't seem to be anything other than healing, and like the same thing, but helping to heal the mind and creativity of others instead of physical problems.

The fun aspect, or simply remembering to have a good laugh, comes in handy for me personally when the mojo's going bad/is about to go bad, and all of a sudden i'm getting visions of being in one of the parts of Chapel Perilous because it lifts the whole mood and atmosphere of the stiuation and reminds me how insane life is, which helps a lot and often prevents things messing up by making me feel better. Also you could have Eris and the nonsense aspect of Discordianism as something that lifts depressing feeling's and add's a bit of lightheartedness to things. I'm finding that a good sense of humour is becoming more and more needed as i go on and is an essential tool that helps out with a lot of stuff that goes on when you start to have results and experiences with magick.

I got this off RAW's website about his book Cosmic Trigger and his views on the nature of reality :

'Cosmic Trigger deals with a process of deliberately induced brain change through which I put myself in the years 1962-1976. This process is called "initiation" or "vision quest" in many traditional societies and can loosely be considered some dangerous variety of self-psychotherapy in modern terminology. I do not recommend it for everybody, and I think I obtained more good results than bad ones chiefly because I had been through two varieties of ordinary psychotherapy before I started my own adventures and because I had a good background in scientific philosophy and was not inclined to "believe" any astounding Revelations too literally.

Briefly, the main thing I learned in my experiments is that "reality" is always plural and mutable.

"Reality" is a word in the English language which happens to be (a) a noun and (b) singular. Thinking in the English language (and in cognate Indo-European languages) therefore subliminally programs us to conceptualize "reality" as one block-like entity, sort of like a huge New York skyscraper, in which every part is just another "room" within the same building. This linguistic program is so pervasive that most people cannot "think" outside it at all, and when one tries to offer a different perspective they imagine one is talking gibberish.

The notion that "reality" is a noun, a solid thing like a brick or a baseball bat, derives from the evolutionary fact that our nervous systems normally organize the dance of energy into such block-like "things," probably as instant bio-survival cues. Such "things," however, dissolve back into energy dances -- processes or verbs -- when the nervous system is synergized with certain drugs or transmuted by yogic or shamanic exercises or aided by scientific instruments. In both mysticism and physics, there is general agreement that "things" are constructed by our nervous systems and that "realities" (plural) are better described as systems or bundles of energy functions.

So much for "reality" as a noun. The notion that "reality" is singular, like a hermetically sealed jar, does not jibe with current scientific findings which, in this century, suggest that "reality" may better be considered as flowing and meandering, like a river, or interacting, like a dance or evolving, like life itself.'

'The only "realities" (plural) that we actually experience and can talk meaningfully about are perceived realities, experienced realities, existential realities -- realities involving ourselves as editors -- and they are all relative to the observer, fluctuating, evolving, capable of being magnified and enriched, moving from low resolution to hi-fi, and do not fit together like the pieces of a jig-saw into one single Reality with a capital R. Rather, they cast illumination upon one another by contrast, like the paintings in a large museum, or the different symphonic styles of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Mahler.

Alan Watts may have said it best of all: "The universe is a giant Rorschach ink-blot." Science finds one meaning in it in the 18th Century, another in the 19th, a third in the 20th; each artist finds unique meanings on other levels of abstraction; and each man and woman finds different meanings at different hours of the day, depending on the internal and external environments.'

http://www.rawilson.com/trigger1.html

So if experimenting with those models or ideas of reality was to be explored, the vision and creative journeying aspect comes into it aswell as healing as a method of looking at the other aspects of reality/universe/worlds and using a creative side to the healing side. I could use loads and loads of examples to say more or less the same thing that describe different techniques and i think that the more you have at your disposal the better it is for the Shaman to Cyber, or Pilot his/her way around aspects that we call reality aswell as interacting and healing/helping the people in the area thats being worked in.
 
 
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01:41 / 12.05.04
So reality/universe/worlds could be better described as 'realities', and the Shaman would 'Cyber' or 'Pilot' his/her way around them, using and developing creativity at the same time as a means of locating and interacting with even more of them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:30 / 12.05.04
Just a quick sideroad, but what are people thinking of when they hear "pilot" as the translation of kybernetes? It's right, but the way we interpret the word and the way Liddell did are probably a bit different...
 
 
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06:06 / 12.05.04
I just googled kybernetes and found a page about the origin of the name cyberspace and it says this :

'The ancient Greek term "kybernétes" somehow is an antique job title and denotes "helmsman", i.e. captain of a ship. Coordinated to that word is the ability to steer, the steermanship "kybernetiké", which is related to "techné", similar in meaning to "doing with the hands, prestidigitation", and from whom our notions "technique", "technology" and "technics" are derived.'

Cyberspace

It doesn't actually say pilot but the other stuff seems linked to the concept, helmsman and the ability to steer, but it's with ships. So is that the same origin used for pilot? It's pretty amazing to see it linked to techne and the words that have followed from that too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:32 / 12.05.04
Well, *precisely*. What you understand by pilot is somebody who flies a plane. There were no planes in the ancient Greek world.

A pilot was somebody who knew the outlying coast and would either stand on your ship and give intructions or row ahead of your ship with a light. In effect, it's a guiding function to the steersman. So a cybershaman is - a guideguide?

(Incidentally, I think the passage you quote is in parts almost totally wrong, but I'll get back to you on that)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:59 / 12.05.04
Some food for thought on cybernetics here

There are many definitions of cybernetics and many individuals who have influenced the definition and direction of cybernetics. Norbert Wiener, a mathematician, engineer and social philosopher, coined the word "cybernetics" from the Greek word meaning "steersman." He defined it as the science of control and communication in the animal and the machine. Ampere, before him, wanted cybernetics to be the science of government. For philosopher Warren McCulloch, cybernetics was an experimental epistemology concerned with the communication within an observer and between the observer and his environment. Stafford Beer, a management consultant, defined cybernetics as the science of effective organization. Anthropologist Gregory Bateson noted that whereas previous sciences dealt with matter and energy, the new science of cybernetics focuses on form and pattern. For educational theorist Gordon Pask, cybernetics is the art of manipulating defensible metaphors, showing how they may be constructed and what can be inferred as a result of their existence.
 
 
Z. deScathach
11:11 / 12.05.04
The internet doesn't really function like William Gibson's cyberspace yet, we don't really jack ourselves in to an immersive world that operates like a technological version of the astral plane. To a large extent, I think that internet magic is not far removed from something like telephone or postal system magic. I'm not sure if a group facilitating magic over the internet would be any more interesting than a group facilitating magic over the phone.

When I was speaking of technology existing, I was talking along the line of new site technology that allows free-form and essentially anarchical groups to exist that could perform magick using the internet as a medium. Postal magick and phone magick are highly restrictive, the former because it is impractically slow, the latter because the amount of persons participating is much smaller and limited. Not only that, just how much phone conferencing can you get? Sigils and symbols can be altered almost in real time over the 'net. IMO, internet magick simply hasn't been used enough, because previously it was largely limited to mail lists, or email. Now, with site technology like tiki-wiki, much greater potential is opening up. A good example of 'net magick is GEK. Could GEK have been successfully utilized over the phone or mail?

In terms of "cyber" as meaning pilot, I believe that such a term is impractical, as it is rendered superfluous in the face of the overwhelming usage denoting info-tech.
 
 
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13:28 / 12.05.04
Well, *precisely*. What you understand by pilot is somebody who flies a plane. There were no planes in the ancient Greek world.

A pilot was somebody who knew the outlying coast and would either stand on your ship and give intructions or row ahead of your ship with a light. In effect, it's a guiding function to the steersman. So a cybershaman is - a guideguide?


Ok, well obviously i've got the first part, but thanks for the other meaning, i never knew that pilot was a term for somebody helping ships aswell. As for guideguide, maybe it could be described as that, somebody who guides and helps the other people in the community who are known as guides in other aspects of everyday life.

(Incidentally, I think the passage you quote is in parts almost totally wrong, but I'll get back to you on that)

That's fine. I'm just thrashing out ideas here, it's the first time i've looked into this so i understand that what i'm actually quoting could be wrong.

In terms of "cyber" as meaning pilot, I believe that such a term is impractical, as it is rendered superfluous in the face of the overwhelming usage denoting info-tech.

I think when it comes down to it there's going to be loads of people out there practising completely different aspects of Cyber-Shamanism and Shamanism, and that this is reminding me a lot of the feelings i got when i first got into learning some Chaos Magick just a couple of months back. Cyber being an addition to the title Shamanism so that it can be redifined and things can be added or taken away.

I'm going to go with pilot, or whatever else there is that i can find but it doesn't really matter i don't suppose, because when it comes down to it i'm just looking for a more open type of Shamanism that's more accesible to a person living in a modern-day environment instead of an older pre-industrial village type community. I'm all for it as long as it focuses at least 50% on learning how to heal and actually healing others. I suppose i could call it Cyber-Practise or something and fuse the things i'm using at the moment. Work towards linking Cyber-Shamanism, Shamanism, Chaos Magick, Magick, Cybercraft and whatever Philosophies i'm into together.

Now i've led the thread here i'd just like to clear up what i think it is i'm doing so maybe there's a bit more direction here : I'm looking to synthesize whatever i'm using, (Chaos Magick is a fine structure to do that with) and at the same time i'm trying to find a balance between all of these things and creative work, with the goal being to fuse the two until they become more or less inseperable. Using Philosophy/Magick/Religion etc as guides through life, and Art (being art/music/writing) as inspiration and possibly what i could be working with as a career in some aspect in the future.

The whole idea of Cyber/Chaos stuff for me being that the systems are less rigid and free, making them more accessible, and natural parts of the evolving of Magick/Shamanism/Religion and Philosophy. Chaos Philosophy? Ha i'm hearing sighs and groans now, possibly you reading this in the future?

Just like Science, new paths are being made all the time, so looking for new branches of things like Shamanism can lead to good places if the searchings done long enough hopefully. Actually it's the searching that's the coolest part sometimes, it brings together so many different ideas and ways of doing things and often it's really funny. I just ended up at one site in my searches, i think it was a Cyber Shamanism page, where the people practising wore black robes because they looked or had the same colour as 'floppy disks'.

No, i'm not thinking of doing it.........
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:06 / 12.05.04
The whole idea of Cyber/Chaos stuff for me being that the systems are less rigid and free, making them more accessible

Are they? I'd say that in many ways shamanism is about as free and organic as it gets. Walk the streets. Speak with Spirits. See what comes through. Respond with whatever skills you have in the bag. Apply to what's going on around you. That, in a nutshell, is how I would define the shamanic process. I dunno, sounds a lot less rigid than the contents of Liber Null.

But then again, I don't even know what chaos magic means anymore. It tends to mean so many different things to so many different people, and the more interesting areas of it have seeped into the occult public domain to such a degree that its tricky to pin down.

I really have a hard time seeing the point in appending terms like "chaos" or "Cyber". In my book you're either a magician or you're not. You're either doing good and interesting stuff, or you're not. I think that the differences between magical "systems" closely parallels the differences between martial arts styles. One system may emphasise, say, striking over grappling, but it becomes a bit academic if someone is kicking you in the head. All that matters is if you can walk the walk.
 
 
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22:13 / 12.05.04
I'd say that in many ways shamanism is about as free and organic as it gets. Walk the streets. Speak with Spirits. See what comes through. Respond with whatever skills you have in the bag. Apply to what's going on around you. That, in a nutshell, is how I would define the shamanic process.

That sounds fine to me, maybe i haven't done nearly enough research into Shamanism and need to try some stuff out in that area. It was ok for me to like the idea of Chaos Magick because i don't actually do Liber Null or follow any of the exercises anything, just do whatever i want when it feels right and take inspiration from the works of people like Carroll and Hine, also i've done stuff with Magick before and i had something to gauge it against. With Shamanism though i don't really know anywhere near half as much as i know (or like to think i know) about magick and how it works.

I thought this seemed good purely for it's easy accessibility though but i'll check out some more stuff about actual Shamanism, and i'm probably gonna have to because i can't really find much stuff in the Cyber area that isn't focused mainly on using technology, and i wasn't looking for that.

I'm starting to come around to the idea that titles for some of these things are just buzzwords though in a lot of cases, maybe i'm waking up a little bit more to some of this stuff at last.
 
  
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