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The (Character) Assasination of Private England

 
 
pointless and uncalled for
10:24 / 07.05.04
I was taking a look at the heads today and admist all of the reports on abuse of Iraqi prisoners there seems to be a recurring set of images. It's the ones of the US soldier Private England.

Now you might think, as I did, that this is the British media's way of saying we may be doing it but their doing it worse. But it seems that these pictures are also occupying US papers front sheets as well.

I'm begining to suspect that she is being sold down the river at an alarming rate. Anyone else thinking that this might be the case.
 
 
Ganesh
11:11 / 07.05.04
Oh, I think there'll be sacrificial lambs, and she'll be one of them. I think her gender is also an issue (a la Myra Hindley, Maxine Carr, etc.) in that we tend to associate wartime atrocities with males, and the fact that a woman is clearly enjoying the role of abuser cranks up the Shockometer a notch higher.
 
 
sleazenation
11:13 / 07.05.04
I think Pvt England's Images are recurring so frequently because they are so iconic - they actually show her posing in a far more proactive manner than her male collegues. She appear simulating holding a gun to a naked iraqi detainee's sexual organs... An American woman symbolically castrating naked vulnerable Iraqi men.

I believe she is also the soldier depicted with a naked Iraqi on a leash...

While there is a case to be made that she is being singled out - I think one of the main reasons for this has been her own actions...

An interesting aside, the BBC had a profile on her on their website eariler today (featuring an interview with her mother...) but it appears to have vanished - can anyone with better web-fu (or probably just search engine skill) than I find it?
 
 
Jacrafter
11:14 / 07.05.04
England is mediagenic. The media likes to focus on events or people guaranteed to boost sales. It's not every day they get to feature maniacally grinning redneck torture maidens. Confirming prejudices, exciting prurience and cheap titillation are great revenue boosters.

I imagine she'll have swooning suitors in a few weeks -- and they'll cover that, too.
 
 
sleazenation
11:30 / 07.05.04
Still no luck finding the BBC version of the story i saw ealier but This Baltimore Sun article includes quotes from the same interview with Private England's mother...

I can certainly see an argument that focusing on the soldiers rather than the policy and policy makers that made the abuse/torture in American detention centres possible lets too many powerful bastards off the hook , but there is still appears to be a perception in some quarters that these pictures are acceptable - witness this quote from the above article

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the [Iraqis] do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

While such attitudes exist I think it even more important that soldiers who commit abuse and torture should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...
 
 
houdini
16:59 / 07.05.04
According to the front page of USA Today, England's supporters claim that "she was only following orders".

I genuinely feel sorry for this woman. You're 21, you joined the army so you could go to college. And now you're a world famous torturer and you're being court martialled. I think that in many ways the soldiers are as much the victims as the Iraqis are.

What really makes me mad is that this won't stop people claiming that the reason we are hated in the Middle East is that "they" are jealous of us because we have too much liberty.

Sorry. Too mad/depressed/overworked to post cogently.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
21:46 / 07.05.04
she assasinated her character on her own...deal with it..
 
 
Jacrafter
22:00 / 07.05.04
Disclaimer: I'm a far libertarian left community activist.

I've talked with several people today and -- while I realize anecdotal experiences are worth fuck all on the net -- the consensus amongst people who are not "well-to-do" is she was brainwashed into being torturer. We want the people who trained her held accountable.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:36 / 08.05.04
I agree with Ganesh that England is being treated as a gender traitor, doubly aberrant, who needs to be slammed hard to preserve our notions of womanhood. Why isn't she being caring and motherly, eh? Pervert.

As for "brainwashing"... you don't really have to brainwash people very hard to get them to behave in unspeakable ways. Unless you're treating the propaganda and the experience of being in the military as that brainwashing, you're on shaky ground. The fact is that England was not singled out for special treatment, she likely wasn't that unusual, she was just someone put in that situation at that time. And doubtless those responsible for putting her there knew exactly what some of their charges would do.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
01:40 / 08.05.04
We've elsewhere discussed the Stanford Prison Experiment and Milgram's Experiment... I can't get too into the demonization of the soldiers because of those experiments that suggest that the war itself is the 'brainwashing' in question. I can't remember where I heard this (here?), but someone noted that it's not a matter of a few bad apples—it's a bad barrel, that corrupts whatever is placed inside.

NOT, you understand, that that lets the soldiers off the hook—after all, there are people who held onto their humanity enough to report that this was going on.
 
 
Jacrafter
01:46 / 08.05.04
As for "brainwashing"... you don't really have to brainwash people very hard to get them to behave in unspeakable ways

I disagree. People are not inclined to treat others brutally without extreme coercion. If I felt that people were, at heart, so malleable to grossly evil practices, I couldn't go on. This has to be aberrant behavior.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
02:13 / 08.05.04
People are not inclined to treat others brutally without extreme power differentials. Here's a decent Stanford experiment link.
 
 
sleazenation
08:44 / 08.05.04
Jacrafter - I can understand why you'd be reluctant to want to believe how easily people find it to commit unspeakable acts of cruelty, but the experiences of the milgram experiment and the Stanford experiment, as well as experiences in places such as Rwanda and Srebrenica to name just two incidents from the last decade, seem to tell a different story. I don't think what went on in the Iraqi prison is in the same league as the genocides i cite above, but I think they both serve as a timely reminder of how easily many 'ordinary' people participated in and failed to condemn what was going on.

This behaviour is abhorrent, but sadly not aberrant.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:25 / 08.05.04
In Lynndie England, we've found the anti-Jessica Lynch. Now the archetype is fully in place, complete, now, in both its dark and light aspects. That they came from such similar backgrounds (rural, poor white) and ended up so (seemingly) different—on opposite sides of the victim/victimizer equation—only makes the urge to parallelize that much more irresistible.

Atr the risk of going all Temple in here...

In the Tarot of War, a new card has emerged: The Soldier Girl—Meanings: moral ambiguity, the tensions of feminism vs. military culture, the "proper place" of women, sexual humiliation, the frisson of erotic sadism inherent in warfare. Upright: a victim; womanhood imperilled. Reversed: a torturer; perversion; the castrating bitch.

Just as Jessica Lynch was subject to a multitude of readings, so will Lynndie England be—you can take her as a xenophobic redneck dirtbag, or as a radical-feminist revenger dealing payback to representatives of a viciously gynophobic, patriarchal culture. Take your pick.

But the dichomotomy—yin / yang, shameless-whore / maybe-not-quite-a-virgin-but-those-topless-photos-were-all-innocent-fun—while false, as all dichotomies are—is still tremendously appealing, and a key to encapsulating a popular understanding of both womanhood and war, by charting the place where they intersect.

One thing for sure: Valerie Solanas would have loved her.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:33 / 08.05.04
People are not inclined to treat others brutally without extreme coercion

That's pretty naive, in a normal, everyday situation in middle class England that might be true but we're discussing people who go abroad and shoot people for money. The aim of a soldier is to kill, you can argue against that all you like but if you become a soldier the likelihood is that you're going to kill someone eventually. So you're trusting people who are trained to kill, not to go that one step further and torture a person and that's where the naivete is because people in actuality don't really want to kill.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
12:47 / 08.05.04
I'm sure she will be a scapegoat, and I certainly agree that those who permitted this to happen deserve punishment of some sort, but doesn't this woman also have responsibility for her actions?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:23 / 08.05.04
She did it but society is to blame.
She did it but she was following orders.
She did it but was brainwashed first.
She did it and her experiences in Iraq meant she couldn't tell wrong from right.

But never, ever she did it and enjoyed it and believed it was okay.
 
 
sleazenation
16:47 / 08.05.04
And in a further wrinkle... according to coverage in the Guardian Private England is 4 months pregnant whith the child of Specialist Charles Graner, the man who appears in the same set of photos...
 
 
Jacrafter
20:55 / 08.05.04
The Milgram and Zimbardo experiments took place within a culture that celebrates suffering as beneficial and constantly propagandizes the rightness of privilege. Obedience to authority is considered an essential part of maturity. Even illegitimate authority should be obeyed. Heros in this culture are those who go further in implementing a brutal "moral clarity" than the system -- already brutal beyond belief -- is willing to to allow. Whistleblowers face more opprobrium than criminals.

The degradation of the individual begins in school. Children who can't keep quiet are drugged into compliance or put in a form juvenile sensory deprivation -- "time out" corners. The basis for the schools is the Prussian military model. Individualism is actively discouraged by collective punishment, "You can all thank Melissa for the extra homework you have tonight. Thanks to Johnny, you'll be staying after school today". Very few schools care to produce people who won't fit into a bogus corporate feudalism.

The most difficult children are sent to schools that specialize into "behavioral modification", military academies and so-called therapeutic communties. I wonder what combination of these social engineering perversities contributed to Pvt. England's early development.

There is a de facto draft in place. Whether it was cynically designed to enforce recruitment or is an accidental byproduct of a sick economic system is not clear to me. Basic training in in the military takes care of whatever spark of rebellion may be left in the individual. It is made very clear that the lives of your comrades depend on your willingness to kill and your skill in executing the orders to do it.

In this context, I see little benefit to punishing the torturers of Abu Ghraib. Isolating them as a few bad apples allows a sick culture to avoid self-examination. They already have cretinous apologists suggesting their actions were justified.

And what sort of punishment would they face? Incarceration in a facility where a sick power dynamic ensures further dysfunctional conditioning is the most likely outcome. For those who think some penalty is necessary, the most hellish experience possible is coming face to face with the reality of one's role as a willing cog in a brutal machine.

I'm not so naive. I know the torturers' glee and willing participation won't force a reexamination of the cherished system that "guarantees" our freedoms. Think tank intellectuals, revolving door crony capitalist politicians and their enforcers won't be overthrown as a result of these sickening revelations. This is a culture that finds humor in prison rape, pain compliance techniques for protesters and work place sexual harassment.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:31 / 08.05.04
In this context, I see little benefit to punishing the torturers of Abu Ghraib. Isolating them as a few bad apples allows a sick culture to avoid self-examination. They already have cretinous apologists suggesting their actions were justified.

But if they were to go unpunished, it would in effect be giving the green light to anyone else who wanted to pull thiskind of shit. "Ah, fuck it, it's only the CO who'll get busted, not me."

Yes, she's being particularly picked on because she's a woman, a scapegoat is needed, all that shit.

BUT SHE WAS FUCKING TORTURING PEOPLE! I find that hard to ignore.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
23:58 / 08.05.04
But never, ever she did it and enjoyed it and believed it was okay.—Flowers

I'm sure she did. But we can look for reasons something happened without treating them as excuses. And reasons might, just might, prevent something happening in the future. (Well... rather, might prevent it if any of their superiors actually wanted to prevent it, which is hardly clear.)
 
 
Jacrafter
00:02 / 09.05.04
But if they were to go unpunished, it would in effect be giving the green light to anyone else who wanted to pull thiskind of shit. "Ah, fuck it, it's only the CO who'll get busted, not me."

I'm agnostic on the deterrent effect of meting out punishment for institutional sickness. Maybe it will convince a few people to refuse orders to torture. Maybe a few COs will worry about their careers. I find it even more likely that outsourcing the practice -- as is already being done -- or making greater efforts to cover it up will be the outcome.

But, yes, Pvt. England and her comrades were torturing people and, yes, there should be some consequence. I would prefer they get humane treatment and rediscover themselves as committed human rights advocates. What's more likely is a combination of whitewash and punishment that reinforces the sickness.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
14:39 / 09.05.04
Seems like there is a general view amongst people as a whole, not just here but generally that "Humans are not capable of such things" and invent excuses like "oh it must be the fault of TV" or "They were brain washed". Cruelty is inherent in amongst humans, ok most of us go out of our way to avoid to avoid being cruel but remember things like slavery, bull baiting, gladitorial games are historically only round the corner. Remember the bully at school!
I would suspect that Pvt England (being support arms)was not taught to kill.
I know this sounds a lot like I am making excuses, but I am not I am merely trying to point out the scale of the problem.
I'd be happy for people to prove me wrong as I severly need to find a little bit of faith in humanity.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:11 / 09.05.04
The Milgram and Zimbardo experiments took place within a culture that celebrates suffering as beneficial and constantly propagandizes the rightness of privilege.

So that's all societies then? Or at least all societies that engage in wars.

I am pretty much 100% certain that this event will have no effect on whether any of it happens again. We've had this sort of stuff publicised and detailed for decades. People just don't want to know. They don't want to know that the system they've been supporting ignores and in fact encourages or even mandates this sort of behaviour, but more importantly yhey don't want to know how easy it is to turn what they consider "civilised" people, simply incapable of committing these "unimaginable" acts, into "bad apples".

It's not just about challenging your whole view of the government and what they do, which is bad enough, it's about challenging your view of what "civilisation" means and what people actually are, and people have way more invested in that than any political view. You can take a sociological view of this as in the post I quote above, the way our society is built up means these things are always just under the surface, you can take a fatalistic "human nature" view, we're just horrible brutes and should be wiped off the face of the Earth, but whatever your thoughts on the matter we are not what we're encouraged to believe we are.

And who wants to hear that?
 
 
Char Aina
15:12 / 09.05.04
This is a culture that finds humor in prison rape, pain compliance techniques for protesters and work place sexual harassment.

personally i can find humour in most things.
i joke about cancer, aids, and my granny dying. with my granny.

what the heck has an ability to see comedy in the blackest and bleakest of situations got to do with anything?

i would count myself with the antiglobalisationists on a lot of issues, but i find it humourous that there are many anti globalisation protestors wearing nike dunks. am i destroying the movement? are they? is it really important?

i think an unwillingness to take into account human nature when drawing up plans for world harmony is much more of a problem.

being unable to believe that people left alone with prisoners of war dont always behave like someting from a WW2 movie matinee would be an example of such unwillingness to confront the darker side of humanity, present in all of us to a lesser or greater degree.

go and watch a local playground, if you can do it without getting arrested.
these are the unconditioned*, the fresh minds, and as a group they are a bunch of vicious and vindictive cunts.
ask a teacher what institutional problems led to the latest bullying epidemic, and after they stop laughing, listen to tales of completely unwarranted cruelty.





*or at least under-conditioned.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
15:19 / 09.05.04
I meant to add to my previous that Pte England is an easy target as she does stand out in the pictures or at least the press have chosen to print the photos where she does.

Which brings me to alleged pictures of the QLR which are pretty dubious even if there is some truth in the claims of cruelty. An issued weapon in the British army has a white painted butt number on the hand grip, no soldier would dare leave a pocket unfastened yet alone all his webbing pouches unfastened. Not that I am saying there has been no abusive behaviour by the Brits but I am concerned that the Mirror in it's pursuit of wealth has increased the risk the lives of you and me for money which is strikes me as particulary mercenary, maybe he should run for PM!!!
Dances with gopher in a state of inebriation due to the fucked up nature of humanity, politicians etc!
The Canadians have the right idea they only use the military for peace keeping!
 
 
Char Aina
15:27 / 09.05.04
well, it would be nice to be canada, all sitting right next to the biggest bully in the school. i'd like to see canadian foreign policy if they were all of a sudden australia. or israel.



alas, over in the torture thread makes a point about the abuse of those seen as lesser being, in fact, not unamerican.
i would suggest that it is in fact fairly human, except that i have already.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
16:25 / 09.05.04
You answered your own question, Canada has only a small military because of it's geographical location. BTW I think we are in agreement about the broader topic.
 
 
Char Aina
16:54 / 09.05.04
i think we are in agreement, except i wasnt asking a question. i was making the slightly obfuscated assertion that canada has the luxury of choosing to be peaceful.

but yeah.
you and i both knew that.
 
 
Ganesh
08:29 / 10.05.04
In Lynndie England, we've found the anti-Jessica Lynch. Now the archetype is fully in place, complete, now, in both its dark and light aspects.

That crossed my mind too, and made me think of Grant Morrison's Invisibles juxtaposing of Princess Di and Myra Hindley...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:10 / 10.05.04
This is all fair enough, but what about the people Private England was photographed torturing ? Y'know, where's their thread ?

Personally, Private England could be as much of a victim of whatever you like, The Sun, an abusive boyfriend, growing up in a redneck midwest town, being in front of the camera at the worst possible time, and it would go no way at all to justify her recent behaviour. Arguably, she's being demonised, but then again, she was in the f-ing photos in the first place. What was she doing there ?
With that smile on her face ?

As a soldier you're trained to kill, of course, and it's sometimes, debatably, what needs to be done, ( I'd argue not, but that's a whole other subject, ) but what you're not trained to do, hopefully, is maliciously dehumanise a fellow human being to the point where they're just lying there, naked, on the floor, with a collar round their neck.

But Private England's going to get what's coming to her. Which, at a guess, will be six months inside, at the most, and then she'll get someone to ghost-write her autobiography, and then go on all the chat shows, reinvent herself as an American heroine or some sort of ingenue, depending on the political climate. But either way, she'll be fine.

The same isn't necessarily true of her victims, however.
 
 
Loomis
07:47 / 11.05.04
This is all fair enough, but what about the people Private England was photographed torturing ? Y'know, where's their thread?

Fair enough, but where are the threads for the soldiers dropping bombs and shooting (and being shot at by) other soldiers? Why is it the biggest scandal in decades that someone had a dog collar put on them but it's quite normal to kill and maim thousands of others? Who are the real monsters here?
 
 
sleazenation
08:35 / 11.05.04
I believe the difference is that the Iraqi's in the photographs were prisoners of war to whom the United States Army owed a duty of care in line with the Geneva convention. In open warefare, horrible though it is, there is no such requirement.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
09:32 / 11.05.04
I originally started this thread to examine the manner in which the media and PR machines were operating within this story. Sadly I have left my child unattended and it has turned into a stroppy teenager.

Interesting read however.

More later when the urchins of time throw me some more minute crumbs.
 
 
Loomis
10:53 / 11.05.04
I believe the difference is that the Iraqi's in the photographs were prisoners of war to whom the United States Army owed a duty of care in line with the Geneva convention. In open warefare, horrible though it is, there is no such requirement.

Yeah that's definitely where my issue lies. I might go and start a thread on the Geneva convention when I have a moment. I find it ridiculous that you can shoot someone on the battlefield with no problem but if you capture that same person and shoot them 5 mins later then you are a criminal. Best to take that topic elsewhere I think ...
 
  
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