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Martial Arts for a Barbelithinian

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wembley can change in 28 days

11:50 / 06.05.04

So. I'm considering starting to learn a martial art. I know the first piece of advice tends to be "find the teacher first, not necessarily the style." I live in Helsinki, which makes my choice of teachers a bit limited, although there are a few excellent teachers here (or so I've heard). Here's what I'm after:

- Being a theatre performance junkie, I want something that is going to look good (jumps, kicks, graceful movements, fast movements, etc). This may sound shallow, but it's something I really want. I would much rather be able to perform beautifully than to kill an opponent with one blow. On first glance, I'd say Taekwando is more up my alley than Judo or Aikido.
- Along with the performance bit, I would like to learn how to use weapons, although I'll bet I wouldn't even touch one for the first year or so of training.
- Some of the more recommended teachers in my area are for Taijiquan, Baji (which looks fascinating), and Wing Tsun style kung fu. There's also a fair amount of Taekwando, Karate, Aikido, Capoeira, Kendo and I think even Iaido, so I could do more research.

Any words to make me a little wiser?

12:02 / 06.05.04

Capoeira looks really cool, so if that's a consideration it's worth checking out, however it doesn't involve weapons (at least afaik) so that's worth bearing in mind. It does however look really really cool, I can't emphasise that enough. I'm afraid I can't really go into more depth than that though, sorry.

12:27 / 06.05.04

Sounds like what you're looking for is P.R.C. Wu Shu, that's the graceful ballet-gymnastics art with the amazing weapons displays you're talking about. Out of what you've mentioned, though, go for the Capoeira, definitely. Dance-like art with incredible kicks and flips, and beautiful rhythmic footwork. Check out the movies "Only the Strong" and "Rooftops" to see it in action. Also some top performance in "The Quest".
Taekwondo is agile and flexible, but a little stiff and robotic, Wing Chun and Bajiquan are all about fighting- not much of a performance art. In Aikido it's mostly the guy you're throwing who does all the graceful flying through the air, and Tai Chi training is sllloooww- and good luck finding a teacher who knows the combat apps. Kendo costs an absolute arseload to practice, and has very little real combat application.
My advice is the Capoeira, but shop around too. The Wing Chun, Bajiquan and Tai Chi could be rewarding as well, but of course it all depends on the quality of the individual school...

12:30 / 06.05.04

Ooh, ooh, I can answer that one, Phire. Some Capoeira does have staff and machete fighting at the high levels.

12:31 / 06.05.04

Hey Wembley- you might find this thread and this thread of some interest. They don't really answer your question but they have some MA background.

What I'd do in your position is spend a few weeks checking out classes - ask if you can go along and watch etc. Any class that doesn't let you try before you buy is a bit suspect, IMO. Talk to the students, see what they think, see how they regard the the teacher. Find out if you'll be taught by the teacher or one of his assistants - some clubs have a habit of farming out new students to the higher graded pupils. Not necessairly a bad thing but it's something you'll want to know about in advance. Other questions to bear in mind are how long has the teacher been teaching, who taught them, are they affilated with any national/international bodies. Trips round a few classes will show you who's a good teacher and who isn't.

I would say that for flashy looking stuff you'd want kung fu or a variation thereof. A good Tai Chi teacher (if you find one) will teach you excellent body mechanics and it is beautiful to watch but it's commonly practiced very slowly - graceful rather than flash. I'll second the recommendation for Capoiera looking fantastic. As for weapons I don't know - Kendo is done with wooden swords but that's about the sum total of my knowledge.

Another thing worth bearing in mind is that ever martial arts club always maintains they have the "ultimate" fighting style that can batter everyone else. Obviously this is a load of bollocks but you do come across it a bit - it's more like every style is unique and has differnt strengths. (This is why people who really want to scrap or fight competively in open competions tend to cross train). So don't believe the hype!

Most of all, have fun - I absolutely love training to pieces. I hope you find it the same, good luck!

13:05 / 06.05.04

Oh, yes, this reminds me. I was wondering about martial arts the other day - can anyone reccomend any that are completely non-spiritual. The way I see it: learning to fight and all the spiritual stuff are completely seperate. If I was to learn some kind of martial art, it would be for the skills and not the associated spirituality or religious elements.

13:11 / 06.05.04

Tom: Western Boxing. You get a hell of a physical workout and learn to use your skills under pressure, week in week out, from the start. If you want something a bit more flashier, Thai boxing.

13:23 / 06.05.04

Some tai chi teachers do teach a fast form that can be very flashy. I'm way biased for tai chi.

Aikido, by the way, is going to be more graceful than taekwando -- it's all circular movements, throws and tumbles, and you get to play with wooden swords. Kendo's even more weapons intensive, but you'll have to buy armor and stuff (it's the samurai art). Expensive. Taekwando is more about actually punching people and breaking boards and stuff. But yes, capoeira is by far the flashiest. Those people spin on their heads and do that Bruce Lee thing where you're lying down and then all of a sudden you flip like an angry snake and you're standing up again.

Plus, you get to learn a musical instrument. Don't know how to spell it, but it's pronounced "bidingbao". Basically a big bow.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:59 / 06.05.04

You may also want to factor in the amount of punishment you're prepared to take in the name of looking waycool.

Tai Chi is almost always lo-to-no contact (with stress on "almost always", because my old teacher was London Heavyweight Chinese Boxing champ, which kinda biased what he taught...)

Most of the Kung Fu schools I've seen, and the Taekwondo, tend towards sparring and gloves, which in turn means getting smacked.

Aikido can be elegant, subtle, and soft-centred, but its also hard as nails and you can end up hitting the ground very, very hard. I also always used to get burn marks on my wrists from my teacher's grip.

Iaido, in my understanding, is pretty gentle for the first decade or so.

Jutsu, Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu, and the various Judo-related arts are fairly high impact.

You will not get to do the cool stuff without the smacking unless you look towards Tai Chi or similar. So it depends on you.

18:20 / 06.05.04

I teach theater movment classes and workshops from time to time and also participate in mixed martial arts. I think any martial art has great cross-over to using your body in graceful and exciting ways in performance.

Do you have any opportunities to go through a program in stage combat? Many ,if not most, of the actors I work with are certified in stage combat.
The orginization I belong to is The Society of American Fight Directors sadf.org
They might be able to help you find info for your area.

18:42 / 06.05.04

Tom: If you can find a school where people are training to compete in mixed martial arts competitions (vale tudo, submission fighting, Pride, UFC)you will certainly learn some very functional fighting skills as well as get in great shape.

18:49 / 06.05.04

I'm thinking Wu Shu aswell. It's pretty gracefull, and it's related to tai-chi if im not mistaken. Tai chi would be another option, but it takes years before you can look really cool doing it - at least if you want to do it the fast way.

Tae-kwon-do is pretty tough, doesn't look that gracefull, but does make you look like you could kill someone if you wanted to.

21:57 / 06.05.04

My recommendation, Taichi. Like everyone else said, its graceful, quite complicated and a good workout all at the same time. Taichi does include weapons - I'm learning a sword form at the moment, and have done a fan form in the past.

Wushu is also good. Its much more direct and straight forward at its early stages, but gets really demanding the further you go. The jumping stuff is really difficult. But when performed well its also very graceful and beautiful to watch.

If you can find it I also highly recommend Bagua. Its a really good middle ground between taichi and the more external styles like wushu. Its a really intense workout and will reach muscles you never knew you had (like the ones in the middle of your wrists!). Its a really beautiful defensive style, with a very rich metaphysical underpinning. Its also got less jumping than Wushu, so I find it a little easier to learn (its still bloody complicated though, the form we are learning at the moment is pretty crazy - swimming dragon)

more info at my teacher's website (plus a cool little video of him performing) - www.taichi-wushu.com.au

wembley can change in 28 days

06:48 / 07.05.04

You guys are fantastic. Lord M, grant, Illmatic, Tycho, the Fool, BigC et al, thank you thank you thank you.

For a bit more background:
1) The Tai Chi teacher in my area is the same guy who teaches baji and xingyi (so he does know the combat applications), and a friend of mine (a professional dancer) cannot stop raving about how good a teacher he is, so I think he's my first choice. Their prices are also about the lowest. baji.info for more .info.

2) Helsinki must be the unofficial Capoeira capital of the world. Everyone and their dogs do Capoeira here, so I've definitely seen it - in the park, in front of the art gallery. The first time I saw it I went wild with jealousy. One of my best friends used to be an instructor, as well. So I may try some Capoeira, too.

3) I don't mind getting beaten up. I may be a girl but I have 3 brothers and am well-accustomed to the sting of the indian burn, charlie horse, and the hair pull. Or perhaps I should say I've played 1.5 seasons as a prop on a rugby team.

BigCedar: I have done some stage combat training, although much of it would be in Finnish here and my language isn't quite so swish yet. There is one guy who teaches historical swordsmanship (meant for combat rather than stage, but is still excellent stage training for movement and fighting styles), but the equipment is a bit too expensive for me right now. I'll let y'all know what I go with, but post more!

08:14 / 07.05.04

Woah. Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Baji? He sounds like a bad-ass. Hsing-I is an internal art, like Tai Chi or Pa-Kua, but all straight-line aggressive attacks, like Wing Chun. You can see some great Hsing-I v.s. Pa-Kua in Jet Li's "The One".
Anyway, glad we could help. I like the sound of the Medievalist, too- the Western arts are terribly underestimated. Not terribly flashy, but they get the job done. And you can yell out your favourite lines from Highlander, Braveheart and Gladiator, for extra effect! "Are you not entertained!?"

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:53 / 07.05.04

Since you're all here, does anyone know a good Bagua/Pa-Kua class in North London? I've had my eye on it for a while...

12:36 / 07.05.04

I went to this Bagua class in Camden for a while - I'd definitely recommend it.

wembley can change in 28 days

08:06 / 10.05.04

Well, I went to a Friday evening session that was a refresher course for beginner-intermediates. 1 hour tai chi, 1 hour xingyi, and 1 hour baji. (I love the fact that I have about 4 ways to spell all of these things, and no-one can tell me not to use them interchangeably.) I really enjoyed all 3. I have a lot of experience in yoga and in physical training for the stage, so I was able to follow pretty well, even though at this point I had no idea what any of the movements meant. They also do a free session in the park on Saturday morning.

The teacher seems really cool - he charges very little, there is a wide range of types of people in the classes, he speaks very very softly and precisely (his English isn't so hot, but he seems to have learned exactly what he needs to say), and is quite relaxed. The way he moves is also exceedingly (I really cannot stress this enough) beautiful, yet I have a feeling he could throw me across the room using only his torso.

I did, however, have to go home and ice my knees after half an hour or so of horse stance. Is there any remedy for that, or do I just need to get stronger? I have a problem with chronic inflammation and patello-femoral in both knees; I'm hoping I can just work my way through it.

09:11 / 10.05.04

Ooh, I'd ask your instructor and your doctor. The ice is probably the best thing, but maybe you should be using an anti-inflammatory or something. A lot of these old-school gungfu teachers know a lot about Traditional Chinese Medicine, herbology, pressure points and such, he could probably suggest something. Those deep stances can be a bitch...

12:33 / 10.05.04

I’d watch your knees, seriously. Injuries to the knees are one of the most common of sporting injuries as it’s part of our body that is a) a major load bearing joint, pretty much involved in all our major, distance covering, movements and b) there aren’t as many nerve endings in and around the knee, thus less pain signals when things start to go wrong. People think because of the slow nature of Tai Chi say, that there’s no chance of injury but it’s not true - I’ve met several people who’ve hurt themselves in this area through faulty movement. I can’t really comment on horse stance as I don’t know exactly what parts of the joint it affects but I’d say take it cautiously and check it out with your instructor. I’ve never stood in it extensively myself. Half an hour in horse stance makes me wince just thinking about it. I would ask does it just feel muscular or do you feel you are stressing the joint itself? If it’s just discomfort due to using unfamiliar muscles I think you’re okay, but screwing around with the joint itself could be dangerous. In terms of movement, there should be a alignment between our hip – knee – and big toe and what you want to avoid is the knee collapsing inward. Not exactly what you’re asking but I thought I’d stick it in as it’s worth knowing about. Can describe further if need be. Check it out with your instructor or some of the othe students.

wembley can change in 28 days

14:54 / 10.05.04

Thanks, Illmatic -- although the mechanics of my knees aren't too new to me. I wear supports, take ibuprofen, and just got orthotics to correct my feet... it's a drawn-out story. I can definitely see how folks get knee injuries by having a stance that caves in; I'm really being a posturenazi with myself. The ice helps, the ibuprofen helps, wraps when I need them help, pineapple... well, I'm not sure if it helps but I eat it, and I've cut out most tomatoes, peppers and potatoes from my diet (some say plants from the nightshade family aggravate inflammation in arthritic joints, and I swear I've noticed a difference ever since getting rid of them). I suppose what I'm hoping to hear is that someone with similar problems overcame them with martial arts. If anyone's got more tricks, I'd love to hear 'em. But I did tell my teacher, too. I am so determined to have proper knees it's not funny!

19:12 / 10.05.04

Definitely, yes, tell the teacher. There's a very good chance your teacher will recommend a qi gong trick that a friend taught me when my knees were aching.
You know that kind of vaudeville knock-kneed thing where you quickly switch hands from knee to knee to make it look like your legs are rubber? It's like that, kind of.
Put hands on knees, bend them slightly, then sort of rotate them through space, like 20 times clockwise (looking down) and 20 times counterclockwise.
This seemed to help me a great deal. Loosen up this way beforehand, do it when it aches after. Seems to lubricate the knee joint or something.

Also, don't go too far down, even if you're eager to be a badass. Tai chi makes my thigh muscles burn and I'm basically like two or three inches below my normal standing height. There are (were? I haven't been in a while) these little middle-aged women in my class -- who started taking tai chi because of chronic arthritis no less -- who move around effortlessly like a foot or so lower than me.

20:09 / 10.05.04

go here . . . there's more info than you'll ever need...

13:24 / 11.05.04

Grant - we do something like that. It's refered to as "old man walking up a hill".

13:37 / 11.05.04

Ag! No! Bad grant! That's an OLLLLD exercise which will KILL YOUR KNEES! These days, it is contra-indicated, along with bunny-hops, full neck rolls, ballistic stretching, foot binding, female circumcision, and witch burning.
Now, in this century, getting more Omega-3 fish oils in your diet would be a good idea. My knees were arse from standing at a cash register 8 hours a day, then I got the O-3 fish oil bread, butter, milk, and the fish too, come to think of it. Now my knees are fine (My arse is knees, but that's another story.). Tiger Balm is good, too- really work it into the myofascia and interstital tissues.

14:43 / 11.05.04

Is it really that bad for you mate? I would've thought it would be okay if you don't strain it. What's so dodgy about it?

Ex

15:00 / 11.05.04

According to me old Egyptian Dance tutor, it's swivelling the joint while your full weight is on it which is bad. If you want to rotate your joint you should do it while your weight is elsewhere - out shopping, perhaps, or in a coffee bar.
I treasure snippets like this - they're invaluable reasons for never doing any excercise.

16:56 / 11.05.04

Huh. That knee thing always worked for me. I always got the sensation (illogical as it seems) that my thighs and shins were somehow taking the weight off my knee-joints while doing it. I know that makes no sense, but it's how it felt.

23:20 / 11.05.04

wembley: you do get used to the sore legs bit. When I started Baugua, Ming had me and a friend doing muddy steps for nearly and hour. I could barely walk after it. The exercise Grant mentioned is one that Ming gets us to do as well. There is also a rotating variant of it.

I also second the calls of go see your teacher. He sounds like a proper master and probably knows a number of techniques for dealing with sore knees. Chi-gung (or however you spell it) is really good for this sort of thing.

23:24 / 11.05.04

Ming actually tore all the ligiments in his knee once and was told he'd never walk again. He healed himself with Chigung. You would never know he'd had a knee injury seeing him perform.

09:38 / 12.05.04

The way I heard it explained was that the knee is a two-way joint- working it in other directions will weaken it.

00:47 / 13.05.04

The way I heard it explained was that the knee is a two-way joint- working it in other directions will weaken it.

If that were true wouldn't most traditional Kungfu masters be cripples? I'm not saying 'bah! what a load of crap', just that evidence in the field suggest a different outcome. Perhaps gently increasing the working of the knee can strength it, so that it can withstand greater punishment if forced into non standard movement, say by a fall or other accident.

04:33 / 13.05.04

There are so many aspects of training the body that even the "experts" will contradict each other. Our bodies are unique. What works for one person may not for another.
I believe the best teachers realize this and don't force every student to mimic them.

The knee is a hinge joint,yes, but there is a small amount of circular movement around the joint. Some people believe that exploring this movement without any weight on the joint is indeed safer. You can simply lift one leg so that your thigh is parallel to the ground and your shin is hanging perpendicular. Then swing your lower leg in a circular motion ,or if you have the coordination a figure eight.

09:45 / 13.05.04

I find any lateral motion comes from the hip socket...

15:38 / 13.05.04

LM
The circular motion of the the knee is called tibial rotation. VIII Movements of the Knee
I don't claim to know how tibial rotation should be applied for each individual but I am not ready to deny it's existence.

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