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Resources for a deeper understanding of the darma (no greg)

18:16 / 05.05.04

darma, as i understand it, is everything.
karma, as i understand it, is a part of that everything, the agency that represents the universe's sense of justice and even flow.
nirvana is the state achieved when your karma cannot be more just or level.

am i being purposefully simplistic? yes.
do i really get how it all works and why? no.

someone must know how to explain it in a nice easy way, or at leasdt know of someone who has/can, mustn't they?
if so, could one of you share?

show us yer knowledge.

20:41 / 05.05.04

Err, i got this from Access to Insight on Karma, Wings to Awakening but i don't know about the Darma. There's one good text that i really liked, it's a popular one among Buddhists if i'm right, but it's not exactly straightforward about what it is, more of the Buddha explaining that there is no Darma, sort of like how Neo explains that 'there is no spoon', it's here : The Diamond Cutter That's the only analogy i can think of right now to explain it but i really like this and think it should help. Here's an extract :

"Thus, Subhuti, no atom of dharma is to be found. Therefore, enlightenment is called supreme. This dharma is identical only with itself, and is undifferentiated. Therefore it is called 'supreme enlightenment'. Being unique and undifferentiated because of the absence of a self, entity or personality, this supreme enlightenment is known as the collectivity of all good dharmas. But Subhuti, the Tathagata has taught that dharmas are not in truth dharmas, even though they are called 'dharmas'.

20:53 / 05.05.04

Sorry toksik that Diamond text is really vague on what the Dharma is supposed to be, i looked and found this aswell that explains it better. Living Dharma

20:55 / 05.05.04

more questions...

is buddhist thinking mostly built on teh shoulders of other thinking?
are their concepts coopted from a previous religious orthodoxy?
is the darma merely a necesary or useful fiction?
is there a parralel to or analogue of karma?

put another way, if one were to reimagine nirvana or karma, would one need to seek a much earlier starting point that siddartha for one's research?

...feel free to answer one or two if you have no idea for the rest.

and hullo again, ZM.

gotham island fae

22:50 / 05.05.04

I may be true off on this, toks, but simple sentences, dharma is the path of one's life, the actions taken. Karma is the ALL around it. Certain dharmas are determined by previous thought. The 'there is no dharma' might imply that there is no ONE TRU DHARMA. Or I might be silly on this.

Buddha Darma is the path of flow through Karma that leads one to Nirvana. And I know I'm making that up.

23:15 / 05.05.04

okay...
so a taichi, the wee two-fich diagram of yin and yang, thats the karma?

opposing and equal forces making one whole?

within that circular universe of equal opposites you have stuff like say, me. while i have an equal and opposite, also within me there are opposing and equal forces representing the dharma of me?

a bit like fractals?

so karma is balance, and the measure of that balance, that orders the world of the many and few dharmas?

and nirvana is the result of the perfect balance being attained? or of the destruction of opposites by the becoming of oppossites?

and is there much earlier thinking like this than budhist thought? is most of the good thinking on this topic ancient?

gotham island fae

00:26 / 06.05.04

and nirvana is the result of the perfect balance being attained? or of the destruction of opposites by the becoming of opposites?

[mind="western pop"]

Back to the yin-yang, I like to notice that both tear drops have a dot of the other within their flows. To my limited perceptions, this implies that [opposites] intrinsically [contain] a bit of the other. That sounds a bit like what you mention above. On a more broad/symbolic, less personal/individual level than the 'attainment of Nirvana' you speak of.

[/mind]

06:54 / 06.05.04

Wow this could take a while.

"is buddhist thinking mostly built on teh shoulders of other thinking?"

Some of it is taken from Hinduism.

"are their concepts coopted from a previous religious orthodoxy?"

Same as last answer i think.

"is the darma merely a necesary or useful fiction?"

I honestly don't know.

"is there a parralel to or analogue of karma?"

Cause and effect.

"put another way, if one were to reimagine nirvana or karma, would one need to seek a much earlier starting point that siddartha for one's research?"

Nope, not as far as i know.

"so a taichi, the wee two-fich diagram of yin and yang, thats the karma?"

No those are the two fundamental forces of the universe put into the symbol to represent them, karma is the consequences of all of your bad past life actions that arose from ignorance, lack of understanding and delusion.

"opposing and equal forces making one whole?"

Yeah but that's the tao yin/yang again that belongs to Taoism, Buddhism concentrates on finding the essence that cancels them out and brings understanding/rememberance/enlightenment.

"within that circular universe of equal opposites you have stuff like say, me. while i have an equal and opposite, also within me there are opposing and equal forces representing the dharma of me?"

The Dharma is everything that is impermanent, inside and outside of yourself.

"a bit like fractals?"

I don't know the answer to this either.

"so karma is balance, and the measure of that balance, that orders the world of the many and few dharmas?"

No karma is what arises from imbalance, if you replace the two balance's with 'imbalance' then that would be right. Oh also that it 'disorders' the world of the many and few dharmas too.........or maybe my brains not up to that question either.

"and nirvana is the result of the perfect balance being attained? or of the destruction of opposites by the becoming of oppossites?"

I think this is right, you got it right at the end!

08:47 / 06.05.04

hey Toks,

Going to give two explanation of "Dharma" one for Indian society, the other for Buddhism. Basically, in the former, "dharma" equals "social duties", but it's a bit broader than that, as in Indian cultures, social duties have both a familial and religous aspect. Fulfilling the role allocated to you by caste is your "dharma" but this isn't just an economic role - it may involve carrying out the daily rituals prescribed to you in the Vedas, for intance. Thus fufillment of dharma = good karma. Such a concept is going to be very different in our society as we see ourselves in more individual terms - it's almost meaningless for us, because our social duties don't anythign like the same cultural weight and significance. If you want to think of what it might mean for you, you might want to consider your duties and obligations to family, friends and wider society.

"Dharma" in Buddhist terms, I understand to mean the body of Buddhist literature and knowledge - thus books are refered to as "dharma books" or "dharma teachings". Budddhist practice is refered to as "dharma practice". In this sense, you getting back at the meanings given above - a "way for living". Hope that helps.

trouser the trouserian

09:15 / 06.05.04

Toksik

The term Dharma (from the root 'dhr' - to uphold or sustain) is sometimes taken as meaning 'duty', 'right way of living', 'virtue' or 'divine law'. In the context of the Hindu caste system, it refers to the expectations & obligations placed on an individual due to their position in the caste system and their stage of life - their 'moral duty', if you like. So the dharma of a Brahmin for example, would be different from the dharma of a merchant. Dharma is one of the four purusharthas "aims of life". Dharma is both a pattern of ethical regulation and the (divine) justification of that pattern. It's important to note that one's dharma changes as one's life-situation changes.

In Buddhism, dharma is sometimes used to refer to discrete phenomena, or "constituent factors" (constructs) such as mental states.

The term Karma (action, activity) has a wide number of meanings in Hindu philosophy and religion. Firstly, Karma can refer to any action, be it physical, mental, moral, etc. Secondly, it can be understood as any form of mental activity - the intentions underlying actions. Thirdly, it can be understood as the 'accumulation' of all actions during one's life to date. A central premise of the doctrine of Karma is that all actions have moral consequences and that 'good' actions are rewarded and 'bad' actions are punished. 'Good' actions are those which are performed in accordance with one's dharma. Moreover, Karma is both action and the 'fruits' of action. The concept of Karma is related to the doctrine of rebirth. However, in the Vedic period, Karma was primarily related to the correct performance of ritual. According to some scholars, it was the Jains who widened the doctrine of Karma to include all actions, and the Buddha who shifted the goalposts further to include intentions.

Georg Feurstein's translation of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (IMO one of the best translations out there) gives an in-depth description of Karma at the psychological level.

10:01 / 06.05.04

KRSNA

Set 'em up, break 'em down,
And pass the cup around,
It's the last that we will share for quite some time.
I've shaved my head- wear a dress,
I've left my bonnie wife,
I've got Krishna riding shotgun on the stagecoach of my life.

My sweet Lord Ramarama,
Got my ticket to Nirvana,
It's a commune just left of county Cork.
Share a pint with me Lord Shiva,
As we read the Bhagavad Gita,
I'll have Krishna riding shotgun on the stagecoach of my life.

Well I used to be a cattle prod for Jesus,
And L. Ron Hubbard took me in some too.
I was a moonie, loved Charles Manson,
But they are not as handsome,
As the godhead whose skin is shining blue.

My sweet Lord Ramarama,
Got my ticket to Nirvana,
It's a commune just left of county Cork.
Share a pint with me Lord Shiva,
As we read the Bhagavad Gita,
I'll have Krishna riding shotgun on the stagecoach of my life.

Hari Hari Ha Hooray!
I chant it every day,
With my virtue tucked proudly in my lap.
And I pray all night to Krishna,
'Cos he's a damn good listener,
And never ever ever answers back.

My sweet Lord Ramarama,
Got my ticket to Nirvana,
It's a commune just left of county Cork.
Share a pint with me Lord Shiva,
As we read the Bhagavad Gita,
I'll have Krishna riding shotgun on the stagecoach of my life.

And when Irish eyes are trying to make the Pommies pay,
We'll get Krishna and his shotgun to join the IRA,
The IRA- the IRA,
Hari Hari Ha Hooray!

19:04 / 11.09.04

I didn't think Buddhism was a religion as such, though It did take much from Hinduism, after all Siddartha was Hindu? My only problem with Buddhism is the concept of non-attachment, ie in my eyes you may as well be dead, for whist you live you will still have cravings/attachments. Another thought that springs to mind, is are babies inherently enlightened at the moment of birth?

19:07 / 11.09.04

I'm not certain about the baby thing, but I'm pretty sure they are not. Don't babies tend to have pretty strong cravings for material things, hence all the crying?

19:47 / 11.09.04

It's not so much the material possesions as the craving fro them . And taking more then is required. Children are closer to enlightenment beacuse will they do desire things it is from neccisity and not from greed. Within Zen their are closer to the no mind/beginner state, as their is little to cloud their perceptions (no pre conseved ideas ) and see things as their forms are .

As i remember Taoism , Buddishum and Confusium , interchanged a lot of ideas around the 10thC (gregorian calander). So it got a fairly inresting mix up from its Hindu roots.

Its the abandoment of the perception of our reality with its concquence being the deconstrucion of dualisum (from my readings ) that leads to the balancing of Karma and englightenment.

Karma appears to be the consequences of actions (personal and others), I've alwayd read there is no such thing as good or bad Karma (this leads to dualistic thought). Just the "right" karma.

Unconditional Love

08:41 / 10.11.05

Dharma mind pg 44

04:24 / 06.12.05

Dharma & Karma

My understanding of these, at least through the Hindu tradition, is that Dharma is what you're SUPPOSED to do in this life -- and Karma is the force created by what you've ACTUALLY DONE, the potentially negative results of which which can build up over several lifetimes.

In kind of an organic parallel, I've always thought of it this way: a cell within an organism has an encoded duty (which is its Dharma). If it starts operating in some kind of rogue way -- goes cancerous, etc. -- its karma is opposed to its dharma, and this unbalance unleashes the cosmic antibodies that will kick its ass.

(How wrong am I?)

18:48 / 04.01.06

toksik

am i being purposefully simplistic? yes.
do i really get how it all works and why? no.

someone must know how to explain it in a nice easy way, or at leasdt know of someone who has/can, mustn't they?
if so, could one of you share?

show us yer knowledge.

I'll give it a go.

There are two main meanings to the term dharma in Buddhist philosophy. The first meaning is the body of teachings taught by the Buddha - sometimes called Buddhadharma. The second meaning is phenomena, especially the phenomena that according to the abhidharma cannot be broken down any further into constituent phenomena.

Karma is intention, caused by fundamental ignorance/confusion of the way things really are. The full chain of causation is laid out in the 12 nirdanas, which are also featured on the outer rim of the wheel of life paintings.

Afflictions of ignorance cause intentional actions which cause suffering. Suffering then causes more afflictions, and the cycle repeats endlessly. Unless you gain the insight to stop it by destroying the ignorance.

The result of karma is dependent on the intention of the action that was behind it, and the most immediate result is that which the intention has on the mind. Repeated intentions will bring about a change in the mind correspondingly - if you try and maintain a patient mind, you'll produce a more and more patient personality. There is also the fruition of karma in situations that you end up in, what I often think of as becoming a 'trouble magnet', and there is the effect it has on your future rebirths.

The Buddha taught that ordinary beings minds are 'contaminated' by kleshas - these are obstructions of two types, afflictive and non-afflictive. Afflictive ones are obstructions that cause suffering, such as habits of the mind that cause guilt, anxiety, depression, hate etc. The second do not cause suffering, but obscure the true nature of the mind, and therefore prevent buddhahood from manifesting. Nirvana is the cessation of at least the afflictive kleshas. Buddhahood is attained by destroying them all.

harmonic series

18:06 / 21.10.06

Many good responses but because it is fundamental to the understanding of Buddhism, simplify.

Dharma is the practice.

Karma is the static your spirit builds along its lives and also the cause of your rebirth. Because, if you understand that you suffer as a living being and that suffering is unfavorable then you learn that rebirth, even in its highest form (Bodhisattvas not included)is not favorable. Thus, karma must stopped being collected by the spirit. This will lead you to Nirvana.

Nirvana. Not a place with silk scarves, ambrosia or comfy arm chairs- in fact, nirvana isn't really a place at all- it is the cessasation of existence. The being does not suffer because it does not exist, and once it reaches nirvana, it has never existed. If this is cool to you, you are well on your way towards choosing enlightenment.

The best way to learn about Buddhism is to practice it with a monk or a true buddhist community. Otherwise, read, read, read- there is so much text on Buddhism by Buddhists it could not all be read in one lifetime, plus, there are multiple forms of Buddhism. Choose the one that speaks to you.