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Mortgages

 
  

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foot long subbacultcha
21:10 / 03.05.04
Anything to do with money gives me a pain in my brain area. If I get a mortgage, I'll waste far less money than I would renting. Trouble with a mortgage, though, is that I'll need a steadyish job until I'm an old man. It's hard for me to imagine being alive past thirty, let alone fifty, and the idea of doing 9 to 5 in an office for another 25 years fills me with dread. I wanted to go travelling for a year, but if I did that I'd have no money left.

There's also the slight problem that I couldn't even afford half a place with the amount I could borrow, so I'll have to scav a deposit off my parents, thus enslaving myself to their will for eternity.

Worst of all, it seems house buying isn't practical as a solo-effort. The lending is based on combined salaries so you need to share the mortgage with a "trust worthy friend."

All that results in is more bloody pressure to "settle down and get married." I haven't unsettled yet! And even if the idea made any sense to me, I'd have to get a girlfriend first!

I'm not after any kind of sympathy. I'd just really like to hear some stories and opinions so that I might understand this business better.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:25 / 03.05.04
The older and more bitter I get, the more I am convinced that mortgages were invented purely to keep you ensconced in a job, not rocking the boat. They're a part of the MACHINE. The MAN wants you to get a mortgage.

This is mostly me dressing up my general dissatisfaction as post-teenage rebellion of course, though it does seem to have pacified a lot of people where I work (kids are far more effective for this purpose).

I don't own a house or mortgage and frankly, I don't want to at the moment. I still have this compulsion not to buy anything I can't either throw away or carry with me at a moment's notice, and this has turned out to be quite useful what with my moving every year or two. I don't even know which bloody country I'll be living in in a year's time so it seems a bit much to start getting property. I think it's that I haven't come to terms with my own mortality yet and hate thinking of anything as permanent, because that means "until you die - you're going to die, you know".

But yeah, property prices, at least in the South East (you don't say where you live) are such that you can't really buy much in the way of a house on your own.

You could always self build. My Dad was seriously considering this for some reason - he was approaching 60 and actually owned a house already, no mortgage - but in the end he saw sense or, more likely, my stepmother persuaded him otherwise.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
08:09 / 04.05.04
Yep. Live in Slough, work in Maidenhead. Prices are silly. I hear what you're saying with regards to the MAN and the MACHINE, but all that falls on deaf ears when it comes to the parents' checklist, which is way behind schedule. They're desperate to tick off "get him a house" so they can move on to scratching the felt tip across the "get him married" box.
 
 
Jub
09:11 / 04.05.04
man - do I hear you. *everytime* I see my dad he goes off on one about buying a house. He doesn't seem to understand that the bank has to like you - a lot - for this to happen. Afford a house in London - hahahahaha.
 
 
illmatic
09:18 / 04.05.04
It’s funny that this is now such a goal for people, as if it’s the one guarantor of adulthood and plays such a key role in people’s conception of their future security. It hasn’t always been thus, and indeed is not so in a lot of other European countries. House ownership isn’t so important in France and Germany, so I’ve been led to I believe, with long term renting being a lot more common (I’d like it if someone with first hand experience of these countries could comment or correct on that). This has the benefit of not stoking inflation in the housing market. I heard something on the radio last night to the effect that what fuels the boom, is this culture of investing in housing over anything else, which obviously has some dangers – it may be resulting in huge over valuation which is self perpetuating (ie. everyone thinks that’s where the money is, so they invest there) therefore if there’s a crash, a lot of people are fucked big style and their plans for the future seriously jeopardised. The lack of entry of first time buyers to the market is also a factor here, because the chain has to start somewhere. I don’t literally the MAN dreamt in a smoky backroom somewhere, but on another level, yeah, this is true – I think it reflects the way that Thatcterite values have permeated our culture, the aspirational values of the middle classes espoused by Maggie, where owning property is the greatest good, and there isn’t much room for you in the culture if you don’t conform to this. I often think London seems to be set up as a playround for those who work in the Square Mile, or equivalent professions, with the implication that everyone else can just fuck off.

Personally, I’m lucky enough to be in a housing association place at the moment so that’ll do me for the next couple of years. However, I stand pretty much no chance of ever buying a place on my current or projected salary, having no parental capital to back me up. If I do decide I want to buy, I’ve got to look at part buy schemes, or schemes run to benefit key workers etc.

With regards to self-build, the impression I got is it’s still going to costs you a fortune. Perhaps we should all chip in and build Barbelith Mansions?
 
 
Ganesh
12:39 / 04.05.04
I suppose, middle-class materialist that I am, that I've always considered mortgages a fact of life. As a child, I recall my social-mountaineering mother drumming into me that money spent on rent was money down the drain - and that gaining that all-important toehold on The Property Ladder should be the first goal of my working life. When, as a callow, pustular medic-in-training, I lodged with a fellow student who'd bought a flat (wealthy uncle acted as guarantor) and was renting out the rooms to cover the mortgage, my friend was held up as a shining example of go-getter enterprise, an inspiration - despite his flat being a scummy ex-council box in one of the roughest areas of town, and not particularly pleasant to live in.

Of course, this was the wilds of Scotland. The same scummy ex-council box in London would likely fetch half a mil.

So... prior to London, I never felt comfortable renting (stop sniggering at the back). I guess the 'nesting' thing's important to me, the knowledge that it's my scummy ex-council box, and I can do what I like with it (this is, I think, even more important to my getting-on-a-bit partner...). Also gives me a sense of warm glowy smugness with every screechy 'House Prices Set To Rise Further!' headline.

After Edinburgh, the London property market seems shifting and treacherous. We've been renting a looovely flat for the past year or so, but have been keen to plough the profits from the Edinburgh flat back into property down here - and have finally adjusted sufficiently to the scarily-high figures to do so. We're both aware that the current bubble has to burst sometime, but have chosen somewhere we'd be happy to live for at least the next 10 years - on the grounds that, by the time we want to sell again, there'll be a new bubble.

It's certainly the case that it's much harder to buy first-time than it used to be. When we first plumped for a joint mortgage, the only reason we could afford anything decent was the fact that Xoc had stayed in his flat for well over a decade, and when we sold it, we had a good-sized deposit. We'd never have been able to save anything even vaguely comparable...

*shivers*

This is a terribly grown-up conversation for Barbelith; it's making me quite self-conscious. Can we go back to devising sadistic rape/torture Corrs fantasies again?
 
 
illmatic
13:20 / 04.05.04
Nesh: Sorry if my post above reads a bit mortages = middle class = Thatcher = BAD, you gentrifying, sun-dried tomato eating bastards!! Bastards! That's not the intention. Honest. if I would be interesed to know what house buying patterns vs. renting were in this country were before the Thatch though, and how we fare now in contrast to other countries.

It is a bit odd to be talking house prices on Barbelith though.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
13:31 / 04.05.04
I have lately been bitten with the house buying bug. I think it has to do with getting older and the nesting thing. With a mortgage, you are paying that money to yourself, less interest. While renting, you are paying someone else's mortgage.

I just cannot bring myself to buy a house that is in good repair. I want something old and shabby, so I can rehab it. My fondest wish is to be able to buy an old industrial or commercial building and refit it for habitation. However, I don't think I will be able to afford it right now.
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:34 / 04.05.04
I bought a house december '02. or rather, my parents and I bought a house!

I was living in a tiny, kinda skeezy apartment with my daughter. but it was cheap, had what I needed, and it was in the general area I wanted to live in, near her school and friends and our family. my parents, who had never once offered to pay for or help with anything (college, car, piece of furniture, whatever it is that loving parents [which mine are] who can afford such things normally help their kids with), suddenly came up with the idea that I should buy a house. and furthermore, that they should assist me. I thought they were nuts, because I was barely scraping by with my uber cheap apartment, low utility expenses, and already-paid-off car.

I'm also by nature a bit of a nomad - sometimes I like to just take off on a whim. combined with the fact that I think of myself as extremely independent, the idea of chaining myself to a house for 20, 30 years - ON SOMEONE ELSE'S CASH! - was not a pleasant one.

I mean, what about the power dynamics inherent in living off of someone else's investment? what if I hate this place, my neighbors, having a house? what if the roof collapses or something, where the hell am I going to get the money to fix it?

with a kid though, you can't pull that running off shit, you need to provide stability. I figured, this might completely suck for me. but it just as likely might be the very, very best thing for her...and in any event, this an opportunity presented on a silver fucking platter that not everyone is so fucking lucky to get. so. how stupid did I have to be to turn it down?

the deal we made was that my parents put up all of the expenses associated with buying the house. they put in some remodeling money (labor is free, though, because my stepfather is a carpenter and my mom use to be an electrician), too, and they keep track of all money they put up. when I sold the house, they get their money back. they don't really benefit at all, except for maybe interest, which they haven't asked for.

in some ways, it's really excellent. except for an isolate event where my stepfather presumed it ok to pull out a thorny bush without consulting with me first and a nasty rumble ensued, they have done nothing to make me feel beholden to them (though I imagine many people in my situation would anyway, regardless of the parents behavior). my kid gets to live half a block from her grandparents, 4 blocks from her school, friends all around. I have a lovely yard and a few really nice neighbors. the area is safe and quiet and comfy.

in some ways, it's bad, I guess. the utilities are far pricier. I have to put my money into practical things, like insulation and flooring and yadayada, and when I finally have real money to spend, it will go into new cabinets and flooring and furnace instead of a vacation or something cool.

and I can't just pick up and go. but then again, with a kid, you can't anyway.

so what I'm saying is, seriously consider where your priorities lie. sure, you'll be putting your monthly living costs into YOUR place instead of someone elses, but how much do you value your ability to just pick up? change your mind, keep moving? how cool are your parents, REALLY? right or wrong, borrowing large sums can cause resentment and/or a sense of obligation, and lending it can cause resentment and/or a sense of entitlement. can you really afford it? not just the rent and utilities, but the effects of storms, the results of stupidly putting out too much salt during icy season and fucking up your sidewalk BAD (oops), all that jazz.

lots to consider. my advice, do the stuff you want to do now that you have all that freedom. when you're full up with good things, buy a house and discover yet another one.
 
 
Ganesh
13:35 / 04.05.04
Oh, that's okay; I didn't feel my home-owning, truffle-oil-drizzling, wooden-salad-bowl-preferring ways were being 'got at' by you, particularly, Illmatic. I think I was being faintly apologist off my own bat.

And yeah, I think things did change considerably with Thatcher - even/especially in Scotland...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:42 / 04.05.04
I saw, last time I had access to a gogglebox, a programme called 'Dream Houses' or something very similar, fronted by a rather clueless-looking chap in a bad leather jacket, in which a couple renovated (from near dereliction) an old gas pumping station or similar industrial building. They did it on a shoestring budget and spent every spare hour on it for about a year, did the vast majority of the work themselves, etc. It looked pretty amazing when they'd done it, I must say, though I thought it would have been a bit too big and open-plan for my liking. Also they converted a mini into a table by slicing the top off, an image wqhich I found very disturbing and which has haunted my dreams ever since. Rather them than me, in other words.
 
 
illmatic
13:56 / 04.05.04
Just as well. I can't see you being that handy with a trowel and a plumb line.
 
 
Loomis
13:58 / 04.05.04
I can't see how mortgage = settling down. You can always sell and go travelling if you want, even do it every 2 years or indeed less. And you'd probably have made a profit which you wouldn't have if you'd been renting for that same period. Or indeed you can rent it out while you're away.

I reckon if you are capable of buying something, then you'd be silly to let any spurious concept of "settling down" scare you.
 
 
Axolotl
14:21 / 04.05.04
For me this is all somewhat academic, as even with help from my parents (which I REALLY don't want to ask for) my salary would have to double before I could even think about getting a mortgage. Stupid house prices.
Why do people think high house prices are a good thing? You can't really spend the money that it generates, as you still have to buy another house after selling. But people still swan around going "look at all the money I have earned with my house increasing in value". As far as I can see it just enables the rich to make more money by forcing everyone else to rent and therefore line the bastards wallets.
As you might guess I live in the south-east and can barely afford the king's ransom I pay for my pokey little room.
 
 
Ganesh
14:38 / 04.05.04
Wellll... I guess there's the possibility of freeing up capital by future 'downsizing' (which, in London, is more likely to involve property location than size), or moving elsewhere in the UK.

I agree with Loomis that owning one's own home needn't necessarily pin one down that much more than renting - unless one gets trapped with the Unsellable House From Hell. Even then, one then gets to be patronised by any number of House Doctor-style gimps - and possibly even have Sarah Beenie thrust her tits in one's face.

Which is, I gather, nice.
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:52 / 04.05.04
I reckon if you are capable of buying something, then you'd be silly to let any spurious concept of "settling down" scare you.

HA! even responsible grownups can retain a fear of commitment, no?
 
 
Saveloy
15:17 / 04.05.04
Ganesh:
"Wellll... I guess there's the possibility of freeing up capital by future 'downsizing' (which, in London, is more likely to involve property location than size), or moving elsewhere in the UK."

Gah! Instead of a chain it'll be a closed loop. All the first-time buyers who have been priced out will be replaced by people at the top of the property ladder downsizing to free up cash - which they will use to buy flats to rent out at extortionate rates to all the people who would have been first time buyers. The profits from this will be used to buy a bigger house - keeping the loop turning - or to pay for technology to keep them alive for ever, thus ensuring that the loop stays closed and that the would've-been-first-time-buyers continue paying the extortionate rents. A parasitic race of ancients feeding on their own young! Bastards.

The big thing that happened during the Thatcher years was the council house sell-off, when tenants were suddenly allowed to buy their houses off the council. It would be interesting to see if this caused a drop in the available places, or if the building of new council properties kept pace...
 
 
Axolotl
15:21 / 04.05.04
Don't be silly, this was a Thatcher policy, all it meant was a vast reduction in the available council housing stock. Though I suppose those it did mean a windfall for those who lived in the council houses, who previously couldn't have got any part of the big property boom. However it was at the cost of fucking over everyone who needed a council house in the future.
 
 
Ganesh
18:41 / 04.05.04
A parasitic race of ancients feeding on their own young! Bastards.

Well, we'll never actually have children - so we'll grow vampirically bloated sucking the dreams of other people's young. Bwahahahahahahahhhhh! *wheeze*

As an aside, I'm loving the fact that, of Barbelith's top Conversation threads, at least five focus on recipes, magazines, pipe-smoking, maternity clothes and mortgages. Thirtysomething fucking shit up!
 
 
Sax
20:26 / 04.05.04
I got my first mortgage when I was 30, and found I was paying slightly less for a house than I was for renting a two bedroomed flat in the same town. Of course, this was a) before property prices started getting silly and b) Up North, where you can buy a street and a slag for 10p.

I suppose the best thing about buying vs renting is that you can knock big fucking holes in your walls and no-one can say shit to you.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:47 / 04.05.04
...although if something packs up or falls down, you have to get it fixed yourself.
 
 
Ariadne
20:51 / 04.05.04
Yes, that's the downside - when the boiler packs in you go to phone the landlord and then ... oh. My problem.

But having said that, I bought two years ago and it's been great. I've been paying less than I ever did in rent and I've made a profit. But now I have to sell and rent for a while before we buy another and ... it's alarming to go back to dealing with landlords, I can tell you.
 
 
Sax
20:58 / 04.05.04
Buying a house turns you into a Real Man. Even if you're a woman. You buy a drill and put random shelves up, and learn how to bleed radiators. You know the secret of the special metal rawlplugs that allow you to put heavy objects on to plasterboard walls. You learn the difference between Clematis and some other flowers. You find out where the fusebox is, and the thing that turns off the water.

You own nails.
 
 
Ariadne
21:08 / 04.05.04
Ummm, none of the above. Maybe that's becoming a Dad? Or maybe I'm a failure as a homeowner -- more likely. I bought a shiny new place and missed all that.

Snooze, bedtime for this mortgage holder. I have debts to pay, you know.... zzzzzzzzzzz.
 
 
Ganesh
21:08 / 04.05.04
I only really learned the clematis thing; got a "man in" to do the other stuff. Claimed it all back on my Feckless Homo gold card.
 
 
Ariadne
21:10 / 04.05.04
(And Sax ... there's this fabbo stuff called No More Nails, designed especially for non-nail owners, I suppose. Holding up my loo roll holder and all sorts of vital flat equipment as we speak. Just don't jump about too much in my flat and all's well...)
 
 
grant
13:50 / 05.05.04
I own home -- it's the big social game, and if you really learn the rules, you can make the sheer fact that you're playing it really profitable. Neighborhoods have weather, in the form of shifting property values, and if you can spot 'em when they're cheap but about to go up, you basically make ridiculous amounts of money just by moving. It's insane. You need a big wad to get a stake, but in general, it's cheaper than renting in the short term, and you wind up with a big wad of cash at the end of it in the long term (if you decide, as most do, to move into a cheaper place when you retire/take off for Nepal).

I once read some financial advice column that said renting is right for you if you're A. too busy to actually do repairs/hire repair people for your place (too busy to actually *live* in it, instead of just sleep in it) and B. get more out of travel than out of nesting. Not just that you want to be a nomad, but that you kind of are. You're the kind of person who quits a job to spend three months backpacking to Tierra del Fuego. Owning a home makes it difficult to do that (but not impossible -- that's what tenants are for).

Lately, though, I've been reading up on alternative housing. It's a really interesting subject -- there are ways to build houses yourself that don't require all the knowhow and expensive construction equipment that "normal" houses call for. Land, undeveloped land, is generally way cheaper than places in town. I don't know how it works in England, exactly, though.
But you could do worse than check a few books on earth bags (my current favorite), cob building (a favorite in Plymouth, apparently), and other natural building techniques out of your local library. I can recommend the heck out of that last book linked to there. Great introduction to a wide variety of building techniques... well organized, with a great bibliography and list of suppliers/resources.


Recently, I've also been snooping around the live-aboard lifestyle. In other words, don't buy a house, buy a boat. Again, I don't know how this would work for you where you live (or where you want to live), but it's an attractive alternative to the traditional homeowning game. Anything from houseboats to cruising yachts.
 
 
illmatic
14:14 / 05.05.04
Grant: Thanks very much for that link - I may well buy that book, it's a subject I find completely fascinating. You might be interested in Colin Ward's book Cotters and Squatters which is a social history of self built/squatted dweller controlled housing. It's a great book. I can't recommend Ward's work highly enough.
 
 
illmatic
14:30 / 05.05.04
Hideously mangaled that last sentence but you know what I mean. Funny, talking about this reminded me of Bucky Fuller's work on the geodesic dome. From this link:

After acquiring some experience in the building industry and discovering the traditional practices and perceptions which severely limit changes and improvements in construction practices, Fuller carefully examined, and improved, interior structure equipment, including the toilet (similar to the ones now used in airplanes), the shower (which cleans more efficiently using less water), and the bathroom as a whole. He studied structure shells, and devised a number of alternatives, each less expensive, lighter, and stronger than traditional wood, brick, and stone buildings.

He could do this, in part, because newer building materials were available, and partly because his structures use the principle of tension instead of the usual compression. About these homes, Fuller writes in 1928, "These new homes are structured after the natural system of humans and trees with a central stem or backbone, from which all else is independently hung, utilizing gravity instead of opposing it. This results in a construction similar to an airplane, light, taut, and profoundly strong." (4D Timelock)

In 1944, the United States suffered a serious housing shortage. Government officials knew that Fuller had developed a prototype single family dwelling which could be produced rapidly, using the same equipment which had previously built war-time airplanes. They could be "installed" anywhere, the way a telephone is installed, and with little additional difficulty. When one official flew to Wichita, Kansas to see this house, which Beech Aircraft and Fuller built, the man reportedly gasped, "My God! This is the house of the future!"

Soon, unsolicited checks poured in from people who wanted to purchase this new kind of house, but Fuller was never able to get it into full production. This was due to many obsticles such as only union contractors were able to hook the houses up to water, power and sewers in many cities. However, because the houses were already wired and had the plumbing installed by the aircraft company, many construction trade unions made it clear that they would not work on the houses. There were also in-house differences between Fuller and the stockholders. Fuller did not feel the house design was complete; there were problems he wanted to fix. But the stockholders wanted to move ahead. However, the main obstruction was obtaining the financing for the tooling costs, which were purposfully not included in the negotiations with Beech. No bank would finance the project with union problems and stockholder battles.
 
 
Grey Area
14:42 / 05.05.04
I've seen an example of this Fuller house...it's in the Henry Ford Museum in Detroit. If you really want to live in something where the toilet and shower is like something found in an oil rig or airliner, this is the house for you. It was an interesting concept, but in the long run I think everyone was better off without it.
 
 
illmatic
14:47 / 05.05.04
In Bucky's defence, without really knowing what I am talking about, living standards at the time the house was designed were a lot less sophisticated. Maybe it would have been up to scratch by the standards of the day?

I'm curious to check out how luxurious living standards are in modern self build - I'll have to get that book I think.
 
 
Grey Area
14:54 / 05.05.04
I think he was hoping to appeal to the 'make it look modern and streamlined' sense of aesthetics that prevailed at the time. I'm not saying he didn't put a lot of good ideas into the design (some of which are illustrated here), It just felt...wrong. The thought of living in a shiny aluminium polo mint with a weather vane on top isn't all that appealing.

Anyway, sorry for the threadrot. We now return you to your regularly scheduled, mature discussion of mortgages and the associated evils/frustrations/triumphs...
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
15:06 / 05.05.04
Yeah, grant, I have started noticing that with my city. We have been ringed around 90% of our periphery by suburbs. About the only option for people who want to live in the city is renovation. Fortunately, the city has recently passed a resolution to renovate the downtown area. One of the side effects is going to be a rise in property values as more poeple want to be near downtown.

I have noticed that where there are a lot of artsy types, the property values tend to go up. My target neighborhoods are all of this variety. They aren't worth much now; but in two years, if trends continue, they will be. One of the neighborhoods I am looking at has several store front buildings in it. The neighborhood won't support a business at present, but I am considering buying one and converting the second floor back into living space. Then in a few years when the rehab on the neighborhood is in full swing, I can get a business in to pay the mortgage on the place.
 
 
The Fourth
16:29 / 05.05.04
I've had my mortgage 5 yrs now in London and managed to afford it through a shared ownership scheme which are well worth checking out if you're on a low to average wage. They tend to offer more flexibility of where you can live than key worker schemes and you don't have to be a key worker, just earn a crap to averagely crap wage! It also means you don't have to find the deposit money which is a mojor stumbling block for some people. Having you're own place is fab. You can do what you like when you like and put up pictures wherever you want even using blu tak if so desired. You get to choose the decor and furniture although the last bit takes time to acquire because it's also expensive. You also do not have to move periodically because the landlord/lady decides they want their property back to sell etc. You have to pay for repairs but I've never known a private landlord be willing to cover this part of their tenancy agreement unless they send round their imbecile son to bodge it.

Getting a mortgage is worrying and stressful but this seems to be partly about signing up to huge sums of money on loan over many years and never having done that before. But in fact loads of people do it and it puts money into a whole new perspective whereby it becomes a lot less mysterious, or that's what I found at least. The chances are you will increase your wealth (which can be different to making money) out of the venture in the end but it's not risk free obviously.

What swung it for me in the end was wanting a nice place to live. I was really fed up with living in shared rented accommodation and wanted my own space badly. My outgoings have increased signficantly as a result but eventually I will be able to reduce them if I move or remortgage so this is a temporary situation. Besides that made me sort out some means of earning more money and deal with some issues I had around that. It's good to manage your costings to cover interest rate fluctuations. And shop around a lot for mortgage deals. And try not to think about the solicitors fees too much else you become bitter and feel cheated - money for old rope I tell ya!
 
 
■
16:48 / 05.05.04
Given that the bubble is going to burst very soon. As we still have a relatively strong economy, interest rates will have to rise soon to support exports and damp inflation (mainly caused IMO by the illusion of wealth of owning an unrealistically priced house). People will realise that lying on the forms to borrow six times their income for 100%+ mortagages was not a good idea. Especially when the interest rates start to bite on investment. Mug's game. You can't take it with you, and it'll probably drag you down.
OK, that's cheap A-level economics-babble, but I think it's as likely as everything going swimmingly.
 
  

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