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What goes in the Creation? Should the Creation be abolished

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:24 / 01.05.04

So, elsewhere in thread the this, the question of what does and does not go in the Creation cropped up, based on the dispersion by personal taste of threads about work created by Barbelith members in the Comics forum and the Creation, an effect repeated minimally elsewhere.

So, we had Suedehead saying that he writes comics, he is interested in them as comics and therefore he places them in the Comic Books thread. I wondered why this applied to comics but not, say, to books. Todd proposed putting all "amateur art" in the Creation, in order to keep it where those who want to read it can find it and those who do not will not find it clogging up their fora. Fluxington argued for the abolition of the Creation, and the relocation of Creation threads into the most apparently relevant forum, in order to minimise paperwork and pedantry. Stop me if I am misrepresenting any of these positions...

So, what do *you* think? Do you find the Creation useful? Would you rather have people's songs in the Music forum and people's writing in an expanded or retitled books forum? What's your ideal balance?

03:20 / 01.05.04

i think the creation functions well as a safe space for artists to play with ideas that are not yet fully formed.

i think its a good rule of thumb, but that isnt to say a fully formed idea should necessarily be thrown outi think its a good rule of thumb.

work in progress? creation.
finished piece of work? relevant spectacle forum.

i like the creation, and think it needs no pruning or pushing.

another way to look at it is Comics is for folks who like comics. Music is for folk who like music. creation is for people who like to create.
these will ocasionally be overlaps, sure, but arent there always?

06:50 / 01.05.04

TBH I still think that the creation serves a valuable function both for providing a broad catchment area for people wanting to discuss how to do things and as a focus point for people wanting to create stuff that would be lost if we spread its function accross the spectacle fora.

Of course there is an overlap with some in terms of subject, but generally as a boad we negotiate it quite well with questions about the about the process of creation and works in progress fitting into the creation and finished works crossing over into other fora for discussion once they have been completed.

08:32 / 01.05.04

Fundamentallly, there are a lot of people online who create things and who don't do it very well and take any opportunity to go to message boards and stick a link in to promote them with. Individuals who create (myself included) are not always the best judges of how interesting what they've created is to other people. People are not as critical of their own work, nor are they often able to allow debate around it or dissent about it to the same extent that they might relish around someone else's professional work. My feeling is that the point of the Creation is to be a place where people get advice from their creative peers and can promote and talk about the work they do without exposing themselves to potential attack in the other fora and/or without spamming the other fora. It's a space dedicated to that kind of activity and as such I think it's a really useful and important part of the board. I would agree that it's a place for amateur art in the sense that it's a community of people who can be supportive and suggest improvements to each others work, and I would suggest that on the whole having a policy and a place for this kind of thing makes it much easier for us to moderate out spam comments and self-aggrandisement from rogue new users in the Spectacle fora.

08:42 / 01.05.04

People might also want to read this post in the other thread where I explain the significance of making a decision of this scale.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:24 / 01.05.04

OK....so, in that case, are we assuming that the Creation is for works in progress, whereas if somebody actually *had* written a novel and wanted to publicise/discuss it then it would go in Books, whether or not the book had been published? Likewise comic books, likewise music. So, schmee could post his songs in the Creation if he felt they were works in progress, and in Music if he felt that they were now as far as he was concerned finished?

That could make sense, and would sort out the "It's my comic, and just because it is unpublished/self-published I still want it to be discussed in the Comics forum" issue. It would indeed go in the Comics forum, if the creator felt that it was complete and ready for a full-kon critique, rather than suggestions on how to make it better. Likewise books, likewise music, likewise, for that matter, art.

Couple of things that pop up - poetry I'd suggest keeping in the Creation, unless actually collected or published as a book. This is partly because individual poems might always be seen as uncompleted works, and works not necessarily related to bookiness, and also because the potential for clogging up the Books forum might be a bit awkward. I think it woudl be handy to have all the Jenny Everywheres in the same place - perhaps the Creation, as they are parts of an ongoing porject, and also because Jenny Everywheres don't have to be comics, but one could always link to the Jennies in the Spectacle fora from the clearing house...

The other question is what the Spectacle/Creation moderators think, and also how much they care; we could just leave it ad hoc, or accept that in this very specific instance the creator of the thread's decision is final, and leave it at that...

10:53 / 01.05.04

In the Creation, people generally assume that any and all work they post will be viewed by people who are interested in works created by other members. This interest is signified by the fact that these people go to the effort of actually looking into the forum. Following on from this point is the assumption that anyone who is interested in viewing the creations of other members is also capable of commenting and critiquing in a constructive manner.

For instance, if I were to post a short story in the Books section, I might get more comments than in the Creation, but would they all be valuable? I got a handful of comments on the last segment I posted and all of them gave me something to think about. I prefer that to getting dozens of posts saying 'good' or 'crap' and providing nothing in the way of constructive inspiration.

Similarly, collaborative projects that are seeking serious, committed participants are better off going in the Creation. If you asked in the Creation for an artist to help design a logo for your new club, of course you're going to get a ton of replies...but a month down the line you may find that 98% of those people have no knowledge of design and no real desire to work with you. One would assume that those who frequent the Creation forum want to create, and that therefore the small number of replies is balanced by the fact that they are of a higher quality.

The Creation is about the quality of the interaction surrounding the creative efforts of the people who post in it. Serious work gets serious attention. Spam gets canned. Just because one or two people don't like it is no reason to change, move or delete an entire forum being used by dozens of people. Leave it where it is.

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:09 / 01.05.04

I think that's true... it maybe has the corollary that we have to be a bit more ruthless outside the Creation. That is, something outsdie the Creation gets the saem level of critical scrutiny as X-Treme X-Men or whatever, rather than encouragement or congratulation... it ceases to be something that one of our friends is creating and becomes instead an item for critical scrutiny...

12:10 / 01.05.04

I really like Creation. I like the fact that, as Toksik said, it's a safe space for people to put up stuff they are working on and I think, on a board such as this, it's a valuable resource. People can be very critical of others work and if there wasn't a place such as Creation to put things I think the number of people who did post interesting work would go down.

Look at The Fools doodles, for example. Where would they have gone if we didn't have Creation? He probably wouldn't have posted them, yet lots of people loved looking at them, and talking about them.

And then Creation is a good place for threads like Squirmelia's plastic things, and Mordant's teach me to draw thread. Where else could they have gone? People that don't like Creation, they say bung it all in Conversation, but a/these kinds of posts would sink quickly and get lost in the general chit chat, and b/it's a far less 'safe' space.

Creation is a forum used by people who like to create. People who don't create don't need to go there. If you don't like reading and commenting on other people's poetry, or creative writing you know not to go and look. If these things were anywhere else I am sure the threads would get clogged up with smart comments, it would put off the people who do like to create and the (Barbe)world would generally not be a better place.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:23 / 01.05.04

Nuts, I gave my view over here.

18:52 / 01.05.04

It's true that there's a lot of cross-over between the Creation and other fora such as comics, books and music, but I think that's natural.

Personally, I think the Creation should be a kind of proving ground for 'Lither's creative projects. If someone's writing a novel and wants it critiquing, or wants help, then it should go in the Creation. If the novel is published then it should go in books.

I recently proposed moving a thread on literary agents from books to Creation. This wasn't because as a Books mod I wanted to tidy up the forum, it was because as a Creation mod I thought the thread would get a wider and more relevant audience there. Contrary to viewing the Creation as a second-class forum, a dumping ground if you will, I want to see some top-notch creative discussion there, even at the expense of some of the busier fora.

So my two pennorth: it should stay.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:23 / 01.05.04

Personally, I think the Creation should be a kind of proving ground for 'Lither's creative projects. If someone's writing a novel and wants it critiquing, or wants help, then it should go in the Creation. If the novel is published then it should go in books.

Perhaps the borderline is if it is completed but not published - like Suedehead's comic, say, or arguably schmee's music... in what sense are digital formats publishing? I guess that's down to whether we mean "published" or "complete"...

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:18 / 02.05.04

I think what could be considered the 'boundaries' of the Creation would be a lot easier to describe if it wasn't for the fact that 'published' means something completely different with the Internet than it does in all other media. There is a world of difference between someone's finished song and a record deal and a CD in HMV. But with the Internet it can be bunged up on a server next to U2 or Franz Ferdinand. Which is why the Creation should be the place for Barbeloids work, finished or unfinished.

16:27 / 02.05.04

Haus, Suede's comic *is* published - self-published, true, but it exists in glorious paper form and will be, if not already, available in some of the finer comic shops on both sides of the atlantic.

IIRC, grant has posted his music, which I believe is purchasable, in the music forum.

Would the answer to the simple question "Can I buy it?" solve the problem? If there is a problem?

16:32 / 02.05.04

As far as for what the Creation is for - I dunno. The recent "how-to" threads - Mordant's and Squirmelia's - are I think what the Creation does best, or at least does in the most interesting fashion. Because, let's face it, asking a bunch of strangers to "Read my story" is not a very effective way of getting feedback, anyway. If people wanted to start a writing group within the Creation, which I think has been attempted in the past but has promptly disintegrated, that't be great, but I don't think I'd join it unless, you know, my friends did. Because, let's face it, my standards and interests in writing may be far different than some other Barbelith posters, and I would like to recieve *pertinent* advice, and would like to be able to offer *pertinent* advice.

I'm not saying we should delete the "Critique my story" threads, but I don't think they serve much purpose to the community at large. I don't post photos of paintings I'm working on to the Creation; I post them on my livejournal so my friends can politely ignore them there.

Matthew Fluxington

15:04 / 03.05.04

I am unclear on why we can't have critiques and collaborative works in the regular forums - why do we need to have a special area roped off for that? If you're inclined to do that, then why would you not if, let's say, a Jenny Everywhere comic was in Comics rather than Creation?

If you're really hung-up on this "safe space" thing where everyone is afraid to hurt your feelings and give you honest criticism, then I really question whether or not the arts is the best venue for you.

If a thread sinks, a thread sinks. If your stuff is not interesting people, having it linger at the top isn't going to make things better. You always have the option of bumping threads up if you wish.

I just don't see why we need a special forum to be creative - ideally, we should be creative in every thread, whether it is about making art or engaging ideas and conversations in interesting ways.

Matthew Fluxington

15:10 / 03.05.04

Also, I strongly believe that it is better to level the playing field and interact with all art on roughly the same terms. We shouldn't condescend to indie and amateur arts and treat them as though they aren't making legitimate work, nor should we hold them up to lower standards simply because they aren't famous and mainstream.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:31 / 03.05.04

In which case, if we have people's books in the Books section, people's art in the Art section, people's music in the Music section and online games like Mafia in the Conversation, what's left for the Creation, if anything? Help and advice on areas around creative work? Writing group stuff? Exquisite corpse? Works in progress? Or could all of those fit in the relevant bit of the Spectacle, the Conversation or the Gathering?

"Shouldn't people be creative everywhere?" is a lovely thought, but it's a bit "what's wrong with being sexy?" - it's not really distinguishing between different usages of the word "creative". The invalidity of the "safe space" idea is possibly something we need to take seriously - for starters, because I've not really noticed the Creation being uber-huggly (if anything, the problem is that a lot of the readers and contributors are short of a critical vocabulary, which will not be altered either way by disseminating the content to other fora) - recetn forays by raelianautopsy, for example, have been given a reasonably constructive but ultimately reasonably uncompromising line on the problems with his material. On the other hand, would his chapters fit into the "books" forum? We'd probably have to rename the Spectacle fora a bit - "Words", "Art, Fashion and Design", "Narrative art" and "Music", maybe...

16:54 / 03.05.04

As I stated in another thread (before realizing this one had been made), I'm very fond of the "finished work" v. "unfinished/collaborative work" distinction. I'm not sure that's a distinction based on amateur or indie status in itself, although it's more likely that the DIY crowd would post up something rough asking for input that would be used in a finished product.

18:16 / 03.05.04

I really do think we have to face up to the fact that the basic reason for having separate fora is so that people who go to that fora can see things on that subject that they're interested in. When people spam a forum or write something in obviously the wrong place, then the general consensus is that those threads should be moved - not because of categorisation issues (although I know recently that some people have argued this) but because the people in the boards concerned aren't actually always going to be that interested in them.

I think there's more going on here than a statement about where they fit conceptually, and that's do people want to read them and whether they should have a choice. Personally I'm not particularly interested in about 75% of what goes on in the Creation and would find it annoying to have three creative writing threads going on in the Books forum at any given time. I check in the Creation to see what's going on there regularly but not as much as I check elsewhere - I'm given the opportunity to filter my reading based upon what I'm actually interested in at any given time. I've been fascinated and thoroughly entertained by some of the Mafia Game threads, but I'm not interested in people's attempts at poetry. This is not unreasonable! There is a distinction that can often be made between published, professional art that an individual comes upon and decides they want to write about or comment on and amateur creation that the person who creates the thing decides they want to write about. We have a separate forum because not everyone who wants to become a writer starts off being Kurt Vonnegut and because it's better for them to have a space to experiment and learn and write in public than it is for them to assume that everyone who is interested in books is interested in them. Lots of people - myself included - probably won't be!

.

20:08 / 03.05.04

I for one would be sad to see The Creation go. Not that I go there very much, but I definitely think it's part of the character of Barbelith. Having there on the front page says "Hey, we're creative people!" which can only be a good thing.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:44 / 09.05.04

Which is more of a ghetto then, the Magic or the Creation? I'd be happy to leave this thread in the Conversation because, unless other people start posting their own imaginary books ideas in it, I don't see it as really being a thread that HAS to be in the Creation. But I thought what WP said was important.

I did shift Rage's music thread in to there though as it was a thread about something a Barbeloid made.

11:10 / 09.05.04

I feel a little protective of The Creation, having godfathered it back in the day--so I'll admit from the outset that it's difficult for me to be objective. Still, I think the Creation has a purpose that's distinct from the rest of the board--though that's not always the purpose for which it is used.

Criticism is a valid use, I suppose, but as conceived The Creation was primarily a forum for expression by the collective as a whole (back when we called ourselves a collective--and that we stopped doing so has had, perhaps, a deeper effect than we initially realized)--a place to annihilate the ego, where everyone was a participant and we were encouraged out of the passive roles of audience and commentator and into the process of making things.

So the Creation is at its best, I think, in the group writings: firstly the various forms of exquisite corpse, e.g Writer's Bloc, collaborative stories, chain poems, even Mafia and Mornington Crescent (although MC is primarily, of course, a game of strategy), secondly in the individual exercises built around a common theme or strategy, e.g. Luncheon of the Boating Party, The Hat, Protagonists Without Adjectives, and the Holy Tango of Poetry.

What these types of threads have in common is that, rather than asking the reader to respond to the initial post with criticism or comment, they ask hir instead to respond with art of hir own. Which is in the truest spirit of the place, I think: after all, it's called "The Creation," not "The Criticism."

Unfortunately, these sorts of exercises require one or more posters to take the part of the instructor/interlocutor--and Nick/Tycho, Whiskey, and I seem to be the only ones comfortable taking the professorial role, and that only occasionally.