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Christian America Declares War on Homosexuals

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:36 / 30.04.04
The people that brought you this, bring you this.

Basically, after Michigan passed the law allowing doctors to discriminate on religious grounds it seems the bill is being brought in other states. LGBT folks already have difficulty accessing healthcare in some places as it is, they don't need the added hassle of a bastard GP. And of course just because they have this right there's going to be a lot of doctors who remember their Hipocratic Oath and that they are supposed to help anyone who needs it.

But, wider picture. We have Bush's intention to enshrine inequality in the Consititution. We have this. And even if Bush looses the next Presidential election it will be to someone who is centre at best, and all Bushes little friends hold all the other positions of power in the States for some time to come.

Is the Religious Right setting out to put the queer community where they had the coloured community in the mid 20th century?
 
 
ibis the being
13:19 / 30.04.04
In a word, yes. If not in a worse place. Unfortunately I can tell you definitively that the Religious Right views homosexuals in a league with child molesters and other "perverts." (I say unfortunately because, as you can infer, this means I'm close with some Religious Righties and I wish they weren't so.)

RR don't see homosexuality as a different but equal (or even inferior but acceptable) orientation or even an alternative lifestyle, it's a perversion on par with the most grievous and arrogant of sins. To tell them gay people deserve the same rights as straights, and to try to show them how this should really be self-evident, is like trying to tell you - a reasonable and open-minded but, one assumes, moral person, that unremorseful child-murderers should be let out of prison and be afforded the same rights as the rest of us. Try to imagine that if you will, and you might get an ugly glimpse of the RR mindset w/r/t the gay population.

It's appalling and tragic, but I don't see what's to be done. How to convince them otherwise? I think the God Hates Shrimp approach is a good angle, but perhaps the humor will only incense the RR.
 
 
raelianautopsy
21:44 / 30.04.04
I love that God Hates Shrimp movement. I'm going to have to wear those shirts at a church.

Leviticus 11: 9-12!
 
 
Simplist
22:32 / 30.04.04
...as you can infer, this means I'm close with some Religious Righties and I wish they weren't so.

Likewise, ibis. I'm from a fundie background myself, and still have many afflicted family members back in the old country. And what my friends who've spent their lives in more liberal social environments never quite seem to grasp is just how sincerely held RR's views really are. It's not really bigotry per se, at least not in the usual sense of the word--it's more about fundamental definitions of what constitutes human morality. Family members of mine (and all of their friends) honestly believe that homosexual behavior is precisely equivalent to child molestation, snuff pornography, etc., and further, that increasing acceptance of homosexuality actually jeopardizes the continued existence of our civilization. I'm not exaggerating--did you know the Roman Empire fell primarily because of its tolerant attitudes toward homosexuality? Me neither, but it's an article of faith among fundies.

So yeah, this isn't something people can just be talked out of; there's not even any room for discussion. It's really quite sad.
 
 
TeN
23:05 / 30.04.04
I can't keep track of all the wars the G.O.P. has started anymore! The war on drugs, the war on terror, and now the war on gays?! and then there's all the regular wars too... like the cold war, the vietnam war, the korean war, the gulf war, the second gulf war... the list just goes on and on!

P.S. that God Hates Shrimp website is fucking brilliant!
 
 
wicker woman
07:57 / 02.05.04
I wouldn't blame the War on Drugs solely on the G.O.P.; sure, the Gipper basically started it, but the Dems have had plenty of opportunities to say something since. Feh, politicians of all stripes seem to think it their moral responsibility to control what people do to themselves.

Anyway, back to the topic. I actually live in Michigan, and I am transsexual. I have to wonder how long I'm going to have to hobble around town looking for a doctor in the future when I need a broken leg set because they have a problem with me being some "dress-wearin' fag".

My roommate last night brought up an interesting point when we were discussing this, however. If you are gay, lesbian, or any other various identity that a doctor might have a problem with, would you really want that person operating on you?

There's a lot of conjecture involved there too. At what point is a doctor able to determine that you're gay? It's not as though gay people walk around wearing a queer badge (though that may not be too far off in GW's wildest fantasies.)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:10 / 02.05.04
What if it was some situation where you had no choice but to go to that doctor for healthcare? And before one would hope that the doctor not being able to turn you away would mean that he wouldn't slit your wrists and go "whoops, my bad!". But it would be interesting to see how this will work, maybe we can get a load of gay-acting straight men going around and seeing what the homophobic doctors reaction was.

But I think it's the symbolism that's more important than the actualitie. It's chipping away at the rights of the queer community and signifying that they should be considered second or third-class citizens in the eyes of everyone else.
 
 
Jester
17:32 / 02.05.04
And just simply the fact that it makes it *possible* for them to discriminate, enshrining that in law is obviously stupendously retrogressive. I don't know, I mean, is America backsliding, is that what these new laws are really pointing to?
 
 
Baz Auckland
18:55 / 02.05.04
I don't understand how they can even try to justify this.... As the one article said, if the doctors have a problem with treating patients they shouldn't be in the medical profession... it's really really disturbing...
 
 
LykeX
19:57 / 02.05.04
I'm saying if it's legal to refuse treatment of homosexuals on moral grounds, then it's legal to refuse treatment to ANYONE on moral grounds. Politicians, for example.
No, totally serious. There should be a campagin to get doctors to officially refuse to treat politicians on the moral grounds that they are ruining the moral values of the country. It would be a truer accusation than against gays.

Why not really? If one's personal morals is all that counts, why should a doctor be forced to treat anyone? This could get real ugly, real fast.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:54 / 04.05.04
Jester, it's happening because for about twenty years now, at least, the Right have had enough control ovwer the system that they can stop any progressive left-wing candidate getting on the Democrat ticket, at best you have slightly right of centre candidates like Clinton who are willing to sell any principles they still owned for a chance at power. So when they are in power they do little to change the status quo. When a genuine right-wing monster like Bush gets in, he normally has the freedom to just drag things further to the right. I mean, do we seriously expect Kerry to abolish the Department of Homeland Security?

But anyway, back at the topic. Has anyone seen this law? Is it lax enough that it allows ANY kind of discrimination on ANY grounds? If so, I'd love to see some doctors who are willing to ban Christians from their surgeries in protest.
 
 
Ganesh
13:16 / 04.05.04
Could I then, as a gay doctor, refuse to treat Christians?
 
 
Elbereth
16:47 / 04.05.04
you could but then you would be a jackass and hopefully no one would ever speak to you again or come to you as a patient. I wouldn't. you would be no better than any christian and worse than a lot of them.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
20:30 / 04.05.04
If passed the bills would allow refusal of treatment for specific medical conditions that uniquely affect the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community, including hormone therapy for transgender people and assisted reproduction for same-sex couples.

It's difficult to find details about this bill on the net, but from Flowers' link, I'm not seeing how this is a huge problem. The link says the bill allows doctors to refuse specific kinds of non-emergency services.

I'm a card-carrying liberal, I voted Green in the last provincial election, and I'm all for gay marriage. But I'm siding with the "fundies" on this one.

I've got a lot of sincere, honest Christian friends who believe homosexuality is a sin. Now, I disagree with them when they argue against gay marriage - because that isn't any of their business. If two guys want to kiss each other, that doesn't affect them at all. They need to butt out.

It's entirely differant for the state to tell a Christian that they have to directly assist somone commit what the Christian sees as a sin. Forcing a Christian doctor to assist someone change their sex is no better than forcing a Christian minister to perform a gay marriage. It is simply trading one form of discrimination for another.
 
 
Ganesh
21:39 / 04.05.04
you could but then you would be a jackass and hopefully no one would ever speak to you again or come to you as a patient. I wouldn't. you would be no better than any christian and worse than a lot of them.

Oh, I dunno. I reckon there'd be a fairly large non-Christian market out there...

Of course, it's a somewhat academic point to make, because I work within the UK's National Health Service as opposed to private healthcare, so getting picky over my patient demographic isn't really an option.

If I were practising within a private system which permitted medical and nursing staff to discriminate against me as a patient on the basis of my sexuality (and they'd presumably require me to have 'HOMO' tattooed on my wrist, or a pink triangle or something) then I'd certainly think twice about accepting fundamentalist Christians as my own patients.
 
 
Ganesh
21:51 / 04.05.04
It's entirely differant for the state to tell a Christian that they have to directly assist somone commit what the Christian sees as a sin. Forcing a Christian doctor to assist someone change their sex is no better than forcing a Christian minister to perform a gay marriage. It is simply trading one form of discrimination for another.

Except that one would have to be ridiculously naive to enter medical training without the awareness that being a doctor involves coming into direct contact with many, many individuals whose 'lifestyles' are a world away from one's own - but their health is the common denominator. If one starts to get choosy about who one will and won't treat, then where does one draw the line? Refusing to sanction contraception? Refusing to treat smoking, alcohol or drug-related conditions? Obesity-related problems?

In practice, there are relatively few situations in the medical world whereby a practitioner would be "forced" into helping someone change their gender (one doesn't wake up one morning, slap oneself on the forehead and say "d'oh, I'm a gender identity specialist"). There are, however, numerous greyer areas within the role of general medicine - I'm thinking of general physicians servicing rural areas - where an individual doctor may have to confront a situation which rubs against his own belief system. I like to think he'd put the needs of his patient at least on a par with his own worldview...
 
 
w1rebaby
22:26 / 04.05.04
Given that the state licences doctors and prevents others from administering medical treatment, it seems pretty simple to me that you need to ensure that they are required to treat everyone, if all citizens are supposed to have equal rights.

If you don't want to treat certain people, don't become a doctor. If you're on A&E and a neo-Nazi comes in, spouting Mein Kampf and spitting at any black people in the vicinity, you still treat him.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
01:33 / 05.05.04
Am I not getting the full picture from the gay365 articles? The only procedures mentioned in the article are elective, like sex changes and artificial insemination.

If this is as far as the bill goes, I don't see how your examples are relevant, Ganesh. Is refusing to assist with a sex change really the same as refusing to treat obesity related problems? I don't think treating lung cancer in a smoker is considered elective treatment.

If one starts to get choosy about who one will and won't treat, then where does one draw the line?

Again, I haven't seen anything about doctors choosing who to treat. It's not like the bill is saying doctors can choose not to treat transgendered folk; it's saying the doctors can choose not to assist in further altering of their sex. Which is hardly the same thing.
 
 
w1rebaby
01:52 / 05.05.04
Is refusing to assist with a sex change really the same as refusing to treat obesity related problems?

What's the difference?

If performing gender surgery is considered valid medical treatment - which it is - then I don't see how one should be able to reject that any more than one should be able to avoid performing a liver transplant on an alcoholic because you think they deserve liver failure.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:25 / 05.05.04
Foust: from the article -

"The Conscientious Objector Policy Act would allow health care providers to assert their objection within 24 hours of when they receive notice of a patient or procedure with which they don't agree."
 
 
wicker woman
05:49 / 05.05.04
Foust, the article doesn't actually mention Gender Reassignment Surgery, but hormone therapy. GRS is a fairly specialized procedure, performed by doctors which I would assume have no problem with it, since for some of them it constitutes the main block of their business.

It is almost a completely different animal. There are precious few endocrinologists in Michigan that prescribe hormone replacement therapy (I had to drive 2 1/2 hours to the University of Michigan to find one), and though I doubt that particular doctor will change his mind, it could make it a lot more difficult for other tg people to find a doctor.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
06:03 / 05.05.04
Simplist saith: did you know the Roman Empire fell primarily because of its tolerant attitudes toward homosexuality? Me neither, but it's an article of faith among fundies.

I saw one woman of that camp make a guest appearance on Bill Maher's show and start spouting that line, then seemed confusion as to why the audience lapsed into hysterics. After her feed was cut, Sir Ian McKellan, one of the guests for that show, said, "I'm so sad that someone that pretty has such an ugly mind."

I think using the "logic" of that line one could far more readily trace the fall of the Roman Empire to the influx of a martyr cult called Christianity than to whether the master of the estate liked to have it on with the stable boy.

I very much hope that the American Medical Association grows a set and makes a statement to the effect that they will strip any doctor of their license if it's discovered they willingly ignored anyone in need of their care. I'd really like to see how the RR could respond to that without confirming themselves as egregiously egocentric jackals.

VJB2
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:44 / 05.05.04
Is refusing to assist with a sex change really the same as refusing to treat obesity related problems? I don't think treating lung cancer in a smoker is considered elective treatment.

It's not? Surely in order to have one's lung cancer treated, one has to, er, go to a hospital and ask to be seen?

Ohhhhhh, you mean because people who have lung cancer are probably going to die, they don't really have much option but to go to a hospital, whereas a transperson could just decide to live with it?

Christ, have you seen the mortality rates for untreated transsexuality? Or do they not count because they're technically self-inflicted? Which, of course, would mean that you can demote a large number of psychiatric conditions (though I'd certainly argue against transsexuality being a psychiatric condition); you know, "**** anyone who suffers from suicidal depression, their condition isn't really life-threatening."
 
 
Ganesh
10:21 / 05.05.04
If this is as far as the bill goes, I don't see how your examples are relevant, Ganesh. Is refusing to assist with a sex change really the same as refusing to treat obesity related problems? I don't think treating lung cancer in a smoker is considered elective treatment.

Depends how far advanced it is. It certainly ain't emergency treatment - not in the majority of cases, anyway.

So yes, I think the two situations are comparable. Essentially, we're talking about that which one happens to find personally disgusting and then rationalises via religion (this is particularly the case with transsexualism, as the Bible doesn't, by any interpretive stretch, say "thou shalt not undergo permanent gender transition with hormones and surgery and shit") - and I might well find fat people or smokers repulsive. I'm sure I could even dig out a few gobbets of Scripture to support my pious stance. Hell, depending on my precise shade of Christianity, I could refuse to extend my medical skills to people who've been divorced, or who eat shellfish, or who wear polycotton clothing.

So where does one draw the line?

Again, I haven't seen anything about doctors choosing who to treat. It's not like the bill is saying doctors can choose not to treat transgendered folk; it's saying the doctors can choose not to assist in further altering of their sex. Which is hardly the same thing.

It depends, doesn't it? It's giving doctors the opportunity to individually opt out - and if I happen to be the only local surgeon trained in this or that procedure, or the only endocrinologist with specialist experience of oestrogen/testosterone prescribing, then my opting out is precisely the same thing as denying someone treatment.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
16:57 / 05.05.04
I could refuse to extend my medical skills to people who've been divorced, or who eat shellfish, or who wear polycotton clothing.

I don't think these are accurate analogies. More accurately, this bill is the equivalant of protecting doctors from actually having to assist in the divorce, of buying the shellfish for the person, and of helping pick out the polycotton clothing.

I think a proper definition of elective treatment is in order here. Dr. Ganesh, I assume you have one?
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:20 / 05.05.04
The article linked to specifically says

The bill allows health care workers to refuse service to anyone on moral, ethical or religious grounds.

The Conscientious Objector Policy Act would allow health care providers to assert their objection within 24 hours of when they receive notice of a patient or procedure with which they don't agree.


So, unless this article is misrepresenting the bill, the argument about certain elective treatments is a distraction.

That said, you are still wrong Foust. I didn't think that the notion of doctors having a duty to treat people, irrespective of their personal opinions, was at all controversial. I'm sad to be mistaken.
 
 
Ganesh
17:34 / 05.05.04
I don't think these are accurate analogies.

And I think they are. Care to advance some sort of argument?

More accurately, this bill is the equivalant of protecting doctors from actually having to assist in the divorce, of buying the shellfish for the person, and of helping pick out the polycotton clothing.

Ahhh, the good ol' sin/sinner distinction, eh? Well, this makes rather a lot of assumptions about the nature of sin and the extent to which doctors must be 'protected' from its contaminating effects.

A) Where's the basis for opting out of treating homosexuals? We're not, after all, actually asking for medical assistance in 'being gay'. Is the author of the Gay.com article overreacting?

B) Using the example of gender transition, I'm still waiting for some sort of Biblical bottom line on its sinfulness. Can you provide any sort of Scriptural evidence more convincing than the stuff I could dig out to support my opting out of any of the frankly ridiculous situations I've presented above?

C) A divorcee will always be a divorcee - unless, of course, they remarry their ex-spouse. It's the sin that keeps on sinning. I might decide, as a particularly fervent Christian medic, that I have no wish to be part of the treatment of someone who lives in perpetual sin. In what way would my logic be more outlandish than that of someone who doesn't wish to treat homosexuals or transsexuals?

I think a proper definition of elective treatment is in order here. Dr. Ganesh, I assume you have one?

It's any treatment deemed 'not necessary'. You'll doubtless appreciate the many practical problems inherent in such a nebulous definition - to say nothing of the difficulty of applying it within a Government-subsidised healthcare system...
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
18:28 / 05.05.04
The Conscientious Objector Policy Act would allow health care providers to assert their objection within 24 hours of when they receive notice of a patient or procedure with which they don't agree.

Well, the patient bit is clearly fucked up. No, doctors don't get to choose who they'll treat - that should be as obvious as a doctor's right to refuse to provide certain types of elective treatment, if the treatment clashes with the doctor's morality.

Let me clarify the position I'm speaking from here. I was a evangelical Christian until 2-3 years ago; I was of the brand of Christian that would have objected to being forced to assist in certain types of treatments. While I have no real opinions about these treatments anymore - I'm very live and let live - I still understand the evangelical objections.

Ganesh, I can't tell you what bona fide theologians would say about the nature of sin, but I think I can tell you what the average evangelical doctor would think about performing these procudures: that it would be equivilant to assisting in a sin, and assisting in a sin is as good as commiting it.

There is no Christian Biblical basis to opt out of treating gays, anymore than there is a basis to opt out of treating anyone else who violates scriptural commandments. Otherwise, doctors wouldn't be able to treat anyone.

The Biblical basis for rejecting sex changes would centre around verses like "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you," from Jeremiah 1:5 and "I am fearfully, wonderfully made; wonderful are your works," from Psalm 139:14. The rationale is essentially this: God doesn't make mistakes. If you were born as one biological sex, then that's God's plan for your life. Any feelings that you are the wrong sex or gender arise from a corrupted sin nature and need to be repented of.

(Sidenote: I don't think Christians grapple with many of the complications arising from that, such as hermaprodites. So that's a problem for them to answer for.)

Therefore, any surgury that assists the person act upon that corrupted sin nature is also a sin. Treatment that alleviate the consequences of sin - such as treating a gay man with AIDS - is differant. The sin has already been commited, and it is the Christians duty to alleviate the suffering.

If this bill provides any medical personal rationale to refuse treatment to, say, a gay man dying of AIDS, then something is deeply, deeply wrong - because there certainly is no biblical rationale for that.

The bill needs to be very, very specific about the kinds of treatment that can be refused.
 
 
Ganesh
18:38 / 05.05.04
Foust, those pieces of Scripture would equally prevent the "average evangelical doctor" from assisting in the treatment of any birth defect - or, if interpreted just a li-i-ittle more widely, intervening in any illness, disease or disorder which might be viewed as What God Meant To Happen. That's a whooole lot of illness.

And yes, I agree that the wording is paramount. I wouldn't want my health to depend on the whether or not my "evangelical doctor" chose to interpret a given piece of Scripture in an "average" way. Would you?

Ultimately, it's all dependent on personal interpretation. Perhaps Christians who feel strongly about the inadvisability of correcting God's mistakes should just keep the Hell out of the medical profession, and let the rest of us get on with it.
 
 
Ganesh
18:43 / 05.05.04
Still on the trans example, how does the "average evangelical doctor" seek to define the "biological sex" of those individuals who're born one of the varieties of 'intersex'? Do we go by sex chromosomes - XX, XY, YO, XXY, XXXY? Do we go by visible genitalia? Secondary sexual characeristics? Gender-stereotypical behaviour?

One assumes these medics would be equally opposed to all cosmetic surgery. And fertility treatment.
 
 
Ex
18:47 / 05.05.04
Therefore, any surgury that assists the person act upon that corrupted sin nature is also a sin. Treatment that alleviate the consequences of sin - such as treating a gay man with AIDS - is differant. The sin has already been commited, and it is the Christians duty to alleviate the suffering.

That's a very neat before-and-after model. I'm not sure most medical conditions work that way. How about if I come in with a fever and skin infection from having had recent breast reduction surgery? Would the hypothetical Christian doctor be happy to slap some antiseptic cream on and dose me with appropriate antibiotics, so my chest heals properly, or would that be assisting the sin I've just committed? What if I'm experiencing side-effects from testosterone treatment - would the doctor be obliged, for example, to reccomend some compatible treatment for them, or would sie be entitled to reccomend instead that I come off the hormones?

I'm not inventing these to split hairs, incidentally; Leslie Feinberg records an incident similar to the first in Stone Butch Blues. And Julia Grant (subject of a few BBC documentaries) was admitted to casualty after genital surgery. The emergency workers in such a situation, as far as I can tell, don't easily get to make a distinction between whether they're assisting in her surgery being successful, or saving her from dying.

I'm also interested in what obligations other service industries are under, and how and why the medical profession is different or similar - I think Ganesh's point about working in a National Health Service may have big implications. But I feel underthought on this one, so I'll return later.
 
 
Char Aina
19:16 / 05.05.04
Could I then, as a gay doctor, refuse to treat Christians?

i dunno, maybe if treating them helped them to be better evangelical christians?
and is the operation to remove satan, or just a tumour?
 
 
Char Aina
19:26 / 05.05.04
I'm also interested in what obligations other service industries are under, and how and why the medical profession is different or similar


pubs and clubs reserve the right to refuse admission, as do some shops.
you can be refused service, but then service industry employees generally dont swear an oath to help or get paid anything like enough to tolerate unpleasantness/sinners.

perhaps paying doctors with proscriptive religious beliefs a whole lot less, if they want less work?
 
 
Z. deScathach
08:28 / 13.05.04
Therefore, any surgury that assists the person act upon that corrupted sin nature is also a sin. Treatment that alleviate the consequences of sin - such as treating a gay man with AIDS - is differant. The sin has already been commited, and it is the Christians duty to alleviate the suffering.

Problem is, that's not how it will work out. AIDS medication is not considered to be an emergeny procedure and from what I can see of te bill, only emergency procedures are exempt.
We had a "Christian Healer" come to the city that I lived in. She stated that anyone could come up to be healed except for gays with AIDS. She said that while she would pray for their salvation, she would not heal them, because in her view, AIDS was her god's punishment for homosexuality. Do you think that evangelist doctors will behave any differently?
 
 
Ganesh
09:48 / 13.05.04
It wasn't because AIDS is rather tricky to "heal", then?
 
  

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