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Is magic subversive?

 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:43 / 28.04.04
In the Magic & Society thread I briefly outlined some of Geert Hofstede's social anthropology research into how cultures express collectivist or individualistic values. Cultures such as the USA or UK fall into the 'individualist' grouping - with the key features of placing value on self-reliance, competition, emotional distance (from groups) and hedonism (pleasure-seeking). Moreover, individualistic cultures emphasise self-identity and 'personal' goals. All these trends have a great deal of influence on us, from the western notion of a unique, autonomous self, to expectations about the legal rights to express that individuality.

Thinking about how magic is presented in contemporary culture, I proposed that magic reflects these general cultural trends, and, insofar as it does, is not actually a subversive enterprise.

Z. deScathach countered with : On one hand, magickal practice sets one at odds with the prevailing culture, (at least at this time), and yet offers ways to integrate with it. In this sense, I would say that magick is quite subversive, due to the fact that at this point collectivist culture places a premium on conformity.

Given that there does seem to be a general perception amongst occultists that magic is "subversive" I think it would be useful to examine this notion in more depth. So my questions are - is magick inherently subversive? - and perhaps the more interesting question of what do we gain from viewing it as such?

My contention is that increasingly, magic is becoming another 'lifestyle choice'. Most high-street bookstores contain sections on the occult. Since the 60's, there has been a growing industry of workshops, courses, seminars etc., and various specialist practitioners openly advertise themselves in magazines and newspapers. Pagan groups organise mass rituals, public processions, etc. Granted, if you talk about your interest in magic you may be thought to be odd, weird or eccentric but it's hardly likely that an angry mob will kill you for being a witch, as routinely occurrs in some African and South Asian cultures.

Looking at features of modern magic in terms of Hofstede's 'individualistic culture' values, we can see some fairly obvious parallels. For example, a common notion expressed in magical texts is the idea of self-transformation. This in itself, I would say, reflects a common cultural perception that self-development contributes to individual growth (in the nineteenth century it was known as 'bettering oneself'). The ability to change, adapt to new challenges and generally show flexibility are valued. If they were 'subversive' - how would the vast self-help/self-improvement/consumer therapy industries survive?

The Coming out to your parents thread was an interesting discussion indicating that for some people at least, parental approval or understanding of their beliefs/practices was important. The very fact that we can hold different beliefs from our parents is itself a feature of individualistic culture, as its accepted that individuals have the right to be individual. But if, in the proposed "Coming out" scenario, your parents unambiguously told you that they disapproved - and insisted that you drop your involvement with magic forthwith - would you honour their wishes? In a collectivist culture, such as Thailand, for example, where filial relationships carry greater weight, going against one's parents wishes is much harder.
 
 
macrophage
07:58 / 28.04.04
Well of course magick is yet another lifestyle choice. If you apply a post-situationist critique of it, then no surprises that it has co-opted itself into the Spectacle. As far as I'm concerned magick is all around. These days you will hunt hard to find anything that hasn't joined up with the status quo. Everything's fetishised into Recognisable Commodities and Ideologies - available for mass or micro consumption. At the end of the day people have to make money - so Supply and Demand, Cottage Industries and so forth. Magick can subvert from within just the same as Yoga, Anarchism, etc...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:19 / 28.04.04
I may be reading this the wrong way, but I've been meaning to say something like this for a little while now. In essence, I agree with absence of gravitas, but I would go further and say that the myth of the revolutionary can be one of the most conformist positions to adopt.

I remember from a thread in the Head shop, Jack Fear criticising conspiracy theories. His point was that, in opting for involved and unusual explanations for events we can separate ourselves from them and protect ourselves from confronting the world and all its problems.

Now, it would be completely unfair to make a blanket criticism of magic of the same type, but I think that this kind of criticism holds in part. Namely, that far from being subversive, magic can end up undercutting subversity, at least in a political sense. (Which, depending on your point of view may be either irrelevant or all-encompassing. I'm willing to settle for interesting.)

As I said, this can't be taken as a general statement of fact, but I think I've seen some recurring patterns. For instance, take the movie The Matrix. How often do we get people espousing the subversive nature of that philosophical, magical, buddhist, postmodern titan? All too often, given the irritation of some. But, apparently, people feel that buying into a multimillion dollar and enormously popular hollywood blockbuster is revolutionary. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd say that that is exactly what They want you to think. The Matrix is a system of control.

But that isn't the only example. What about those people who come to the Temple and proclaim to have saved us, by their valiant efforts, from the latest apocalypse? I can't help but feel that all they achieve is disengagement from the world, and a channelling of their efforts in ways that make them completely harmless.

I could go on. The thread about Al Qaeda springs to mind, as does the reality disconnect and moral vacuum in the many love spell threads and some people's attitude to drugs seems like little more than escapism to me. And I think the adoption of traditional attitudes in a magical context has been mentioned before, with respect to feminism for example.

This is not to say that all magic and all magical practice is masturbatory wish fulfillment posing as cutting edge revolution. There is more to it than that, both in terms of personal spiritual journeys and a distinct attitude to the world. But there is a danger in the assumption that having a minority interest, with its own set of conventions and language equates to being subversive.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:32 / 28.04.04
I wish I'd clipped the article from New Idea (an Australian womens magazine - like Cleo or Cosmo, basicallly) talking about Demi Moore and Aston Whassisface getting married. Apparently, they both follow Kabbalah, a new age jewish religion. There were lots of mentions throughout of this "new age jewish religion" and the "new age jews" - which shows a (quite understandable, really) misunderstanding of the fundamentals.

Buuuut, it also started me questioning whether the sneer of contempt the phrase "new age religion" raised in me was really justified. And if my High Ceremonial Magic really deserves any better moniker, when it comes down to it.

Erm, which I guess puts me into the "lifestyle" camp. A bit shamefaced about it, but I do have to grant that I'm just as foolish as everyone else, when it comes down to it. Just that my reality tunnel contains the conceit that I'm modifying my reality tunnel. Which usually makes me so fat-headed that I think myself above being a mere "lifestyle" - but when it comes down to it, I don't know that's true.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:49 / 28.04.04
at this point collectivist culture places a premium on conformity.

I'm not so sure I agree with that statement. From where I'm sitting the dominant culture is currently centred around individualism. We're constantly bombarded with media images that reinforce the notion of the individual. Most of the heroes in our mainstream books, films and comics are anti-heroes who stand apart from the crowd. There's a strong trend in advertising to market products as commodities that assist in the pursuit of individuality, buy this item and be different from everybody else. Don't just be one of the herd.

I'm not sure if mainstream western culture has invested much capital in the idea of "conformity" since the mid-1950's. I don't think we live in a particularly conformist society, certainly not in comparison to other cultural models in existence elsewhere in the world.

Lately, I've been gravitating towards a model of magic that sees our universe/reality as a single organism, positioning the magician within a web of connections. The individual is seen as part of a larger complex system which s/he interacts with through relationships with the community, the ancestors, and spirits. You are a part of the same entity as your community, you are the same organism as your ancestors, and a part of the same complex regulating system as the spirits/entities/God/desses. In some ways I think that approaching magic in these terms is fairly subversive, as it directly undermines the self and other dichotomy that our culture is steeped in.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:51 / 28.04.04
Gah! I forgot to re-post the statement I was disagreeing with! I meant this bit:

at this point collectivist culture places a premium on conformity.

will put in mod request.
 
 
Sobek
18:09 / 28.04.04

I think that it depends on how you approach it. If your approach to magic(k) is rooted in the reclamation and use of your own power(s), then it is implicitly "subversive". In more religious or traditional models, where you are serving or negotiating with Gods or demons or powers seen as originating outside of you, it would seem to be less so.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:09 / 28.04.04
Is writing subversive? Is music subversive? Is voting subversive?

Kinda depends, doesn't it?

When we say 'subversive' I expect we're talking about things which lead to questioning of the dominant worldview. So some chaotes are genuinely subverting their worldviews with belief shifting; others are just post-modern dogmatists. I'm not even necessarily putting a value judgment here; personally, I don't want my entire world thrown into chaos until after I'm done with school, 'cause that's a goal I wish to complete (afterward, we can talk).

As for The Matrix, I thought that the second one brought up a genuinely subversive question that I want to see addressed by artists: what happens when the revolution serves the machine? Too bad the question was completely ignored in the third one.
 
 
Magister Lewdi
22:37 / 28.04.04
Magick, real Magick, is THE single most subversive thing that exists.

"Every man and woman is a Star!"

"Do what thou Wilt."

Come on! It doesn't get any more subversive than that. Does it?


Verb: subvert

1.) Destroy property or hinder normal operations.

conteract
countermine
sabotge
undermine
weaken

"Destroy property," you axe? Isn't that Baaaaaad?
Not when it destroys the property that certain interests have in YOU!

Noun: subversive
1.) a radical supporter of political or social revolution

Adjective: subversive
1.) In opposition to civil authority or government.

Magick is also Hateful (tm) in the extreme, as it not only implies that you have a right to buck the established "norm," it actually gives you the means to do so!

All the beast,
Magister Lewdi

"A soul was saved today, in the name of Mystress Tina Mosupre."
 
 
Z. deScathach
05:29 / 29.04.04
IMO magick as a lifestyle choice is not subversive, for the reasons given above, if "lifestyle choice means taking on the label of "magickal practitioner". To me, the subversive element arises in two areas. Firstly the aforementioned viewpoint of the combination of individualism and collectivism. Magickal practice defies conformity, and thus has a subversive element. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly,(with the assumption, of course,that magick actually works), magick is subversive because it trumps law. An individual practicing magick can accomplish things that the power structure can do nothing about. Save passing a law that the practice of magick is outright illegal and that all who practice it should be detained, (been there, done that), acts of magick cannot be successfully prosecuted. There have been several attempts to do so, and it is an uphill battle, as there is plenty of reasonable doubt that the "occurrence" would have happened anyway without the working.

Governments have huge levels of power to regulate behavior. Magick enables one to usurp that authority, therefor it is highly subversive. This is, in my opinion, the reasoning behind beliefs in Karmic Law. It is terrifying to some that authority can be usurped, and there is a psychological need to believe in a "cosmic cop" that will punish offenders, thus the "Lords of Karma". Anything that usurps authority can be said to be subversive, because it defies the will of the government. An example might be doing protective magick against gaybashers. Law, at least in the United States, says that you need to wait until the beating has actually been administered in order for the law to do anything. Proactive action against an attacker is illegal, and indeed, if one even defends oneself with more "capacity" than one's attacker, one can be imprisoned. Granted, there is a legal concept of fear for life, but that applies to a weaponized assault, not to simply "being convinced that one will be hurt or killed". Thus, if an individual casts a working against said would be attackers, causing them damage of some sort, they have gotten around the law.

Of course the argument could be made that the real determinant as to whether any magickal act is subversive is whether it supports the government's power or not. In a previous thread it was speculated that George W. may have his own mages. Still, even if he does, his mages would be acting subversively, as they would be making attacks without due process. As magick cannot at this time be "proved" in a court of law, it is impossible for GW's people to go to a judge and say, "I want a curse warrant against these people, we have 'evidence' that they have practiced magick against us." Evidence is based upon correlation, and as we all know, magick cannot be proved as yet in that way. In the above instance, it's also important to note that when governmental "misconduct" comes to light, (and not until), it is considered to be subversive. As government is a regulatory body that depends on law for that regulation, that which undermines law and it's capacity to control the populace, is by nature subversive.
 
 
macrophage
10:39 / 29.04.04
The Matrix did relay overt Gnostic themes to the next generations, but so does Sonic X if you watch it closely enough!!!! Subversion - en masse or individualised? Magick can act as an escapist vehicle as well as enhancing our complex negotiations with realities, amongst others. Working 9 to 5 everyday so you can get into loadsa debt now I'd call that foolish lifestylism!!!! Magick can act as an act of becoming, muating ourselves to our own ideals and those around. In the end it does not matter as long as you are true to your selves and get on with it, that's fine. There's no need to install guilt trips just for dabbling in the so called forbidden arts!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:30 / 29.04.04
There's a difference between "installing guilt trips" and looking critically and objectively at your practice and how you think about it and frame it though. I think it's good to be rigorous in questioning what it is that you're doing and what your motives are for doing it.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:31 / 29.04.04
Yes, but I think it’s also a question of who’s glasses one is peering through.

I mean for example, in the eyes of UK family law what is ‘normal’ and ‘acceptable’ certainly does not include an interest in the Occult.

Yes, there are lots of books on the subject available these days, and seminars and conferences and the like, but most everyone won’t have any knowledge at all of those things even existing. The acceptable face of magick is books such as ‘The little book of love spells’ - unthreatening and ‘teenage nonsense,’ or that daytime psychic show on Channel 5. The general consensus of opinion is: ‘bless them with their crystals and their Reiki and their new age silliness,’ because those things have the appearance of being non-threatening.

But if you take the word subvert to mean: To undermine the character, morals, or allegiance of; corrupt and then you bring up, say Alistair Crowley or Enochian Sex Magick, I reckon 99.9% of the general public would agree that ‘that’ kind of magick ‘is’ subversive, in their eyes.
 
 
LVX23
20:36 / 29.04.04
Gypsy Lantern wrote:
From where I'm sitting the dominant culture is currently centred around individualism. We're constantly bombarded with media images that reinforce the notion of the individual.

I regard this as a highly contradictory statement. Or at least as one that bears some closer examination. There's a big difference between honestly seeking to define yourself in contrast to society and the status quo, and adopting a nostalgic Old West Lone Ranger sentimentality that's fed to us by commercial interests. "Individualism" in this sense is a brand, a market ploy to sell product by tying it to an ideal. It is a co-option and commodification of the concept of individuality. America certainly has a dominant cultural ideal of individualism, but it's kept well in check by laws, social mores, and religious monoculture. In reality it remains an ideal. Most Americans fit into a mold defined by the dominant racial and cultural trends of their upbringing. I would argue that those who truly attempt to distinguish themselves from the pack are a small minority.

To return to the thread topic, I believe Magick, practiced regularly and integrated as a way of life, is supremely subversive. Simply suggesting that things are not always the way they seem, or that it might be OK for 2 poeple of the same gender to love each other sexually, or that maybe we should question the motives of our government, are heretical statements in much of America. Radically altering your perceptions, embracing pantheistic archetypes and pagan symbolism, consciously tearing down the walls of belief thrown up all around us by society and culture, and taking command of our lives to rebuild ourselves as truly free and responsible individuals, poses a huge threat to the dominant paradigm of Control. Make no mistake about it. Why do you think psychedelics are illegal? How about the crackdown on raves? These things do not pose big threats to the individual but they seem to scare the shit out of the establishment.

Control fears Chaos. Magicians embrace and utilize Chaos in accordance with Will to usurp Control.
 
 
---
06:13 / 30.04.04
I think that it's simply a lifestyle choice for the person that chooses it, and maybe the whole idea of it being subversive has stemmed from the fact that the actual right to practise Magick has been outlawed in the past and has been associated as being 'Devil' worship etc.

Maybe in the future it won't be seen as being subversive at all and will be accepted a lot more for what it actually is.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:51 / 30.04.04
But there is a danger in the assumption that having a minority interest, with its own set of conventions and language equates to being subversive.

That's a good point, Lurid. Back in the late 80's a friend of mine - Stephen Sennitt - edited a UK 'underground' occult 'zine (Nox: the magazine of the left-hand path). In one issue, he reported that the Post Office had stopped delivering Nox-labelled mail to his house and he had to go and pick it up from the main sorting office. Some readers jumped to the 'obvious' conclusion that 'the powers that be' were monitoring his mail - and one person even attested that the "security services" in the UK regularly keep an eye on all occult groups. Stephen let the paranoia build for a couple of issues then announced that the whole thing was a joke and that he wanted to see how self-important his readers were.

LVX:
Make no mistake about it. Why do you think psychedelics are illegal? How about the crackdown on raves? These things do not pose big threats to the individual but they seem to scare the shit out of the establishment.

Yes, but occultic practices are not illegal, and sociological research into changing religious mores in the USA indicates that religious diversity (including the growth of interest in the occult) is on the increase. Witchcraft in the USA is protected under the First Amendment - Witches' Federal Law Memorandum. In 2003, Denmark declared that a pagan group worshipping Thor, Odin et al could conduct legally valid marriage ceremonies. Also in that year, a U.S. federal judge in the state of Virginia ruled in favor of a Wiccan who was barred from saying a prayer to open a Chesterfield County board meeting. I'd say these examples indicate a trend towards greater tolerance and acceptance of occult beliefs.

Interesting review here discussing the pros and cons of the USA's "culture of rights".

It's perhaps a telling point that for many years in the UK, the annual Thelemic Conference was held in Oxford's town hall council chambers. Also, the enthusiasm that the OTO has had over the last few years in pursuing a variety of small press publishers and other 'claimants' through the courts over copyright issues shows that being able to quote the Book of the Law doesn't necessarily indicate a 'revolutionary' stance. Indeed, when I ran into the rather contraversial Italian thelemite Massimo Introvigne (details here) a few years back, he gleefully informed me that having just finished some legal work for the Caliphate, he was moving on to working for Microsoft. Pete Carroll's reccomendation to Chaos International readers to vote Conservative also springs to mind.

All of which is not to say that magici can't be subversive - obviously it can be used for politically-motivated intentions (be they non-conformist or otherwise). I have a great respect for Starhawk's approach to magical-political activism, for example.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:35 / 05.05.04
(One small, slightly OT point: It's not necessarily "self-important" to think that your post is being monitored. I vividly recall a period in the 80's when every letter that came to our house, including kiddy birthday cards, had been opened and re-sealed with brown packing tape. This was soley because my laughably unsubversive parents were on the CND mailing-list.

Everyone on CND's books was having their post monitored in a very "we're reading your letters and you can't stop us, nyahh!" way, just to put the frighteners on as many ban-the-bomb types as possible.)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:07 / 05.05.04
Yeah, fair point Mordant - having lived in a shared house with members of both Anti-Fascist Action & the Animal Liberation Front I've had experience of "excessively-damaged" mail, phone-taps & waking up one night to find the place full of cops for no clear reason. However, I think it's a bit over-the-top to believe that "the State" bothers to monitor people who subscribe to small occult journals.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:27 / 07.05.04
surely anything you can buy into through books or magazines no mattter who supports them, or anything else you can buy into , can never be subversive, anything that supports the major capitalist economy in the world in anyway ie the transaction of capital is in no way subversive, and will always be conformist, if it involves the transaction of money it will always be conformist.

you sell a book telling me how to be liberated or make a movie or write a song and then want capital in return you are conformist and so am i for buying it.

do what thou wilt shall be the hole of the law, must obey mr crowley, must at least purchase a copy of magick anyway.

trade through capital is conformity, you cant escape, its all popular culture, all of it, counter culture is the status quo in the west. each successive generation sells its rebellion to the next, drugs now there rebellious, or could it be a case that one generation needs new customers to keep its own habits going?

the real magic is in marketing and mass media social engineering, you buy the books you buy the silver jewellery and black clothes you join the oto, wa hey your the mother of all fleas welcome to thelema and then you join the yahoo group tool lodge because maynard is so kewl,
and hes into crowley too.

then you fill up your bookselves with the right books and hey presto add a little charmed and buffy alittle goth an metal for extra sass instant fleamite.

and wiccans well where do we start, as for hippie bullshit shamans who took a few too many tabs back in the day.

at least i can laugh at myself, i am currently playing at shaolin kung fu and tai chi so i must be a monk.

western culture is acting which imo is why it puts actors as almost demi god symbols in its culture, the role models we should aspire too, fakers, players of roles from work to pub personality to magician, roles masks whatever you will.

if i wanted to be subversive, id refuse to have any role any persona, any self.

instead i conform. as do you.......
 
 
Perfect Tommy
22:28 / 07.05.04
I think it's rather a stretch to say that literally everything involving trade is by definition non-subversive. I'd hazard that there have been many changes in society during the millennia since trade began, so something has been subverted in that time...
 
 
Olulabelle
22:55 / 07.05.04
I vividly recall a period in the 80's when every letter that came to our house, including kiddy birthday cards, had been opened and re-sealed with brown packing tape. This was soley because my laughably unsubversive parents were on the CND mailing-list.


I've been in that place too Mordant, and we all knew 'why' it was happening. In days of yore, it wasn't cool to go and protest against Nuclear power, and those that 'disobey', get spied on...

I would say this conversation isn't just (shouldn't just be) about what society sees as subversive though, it's also fundamentally about how we feel. I mean, isn't this discussion tied partly into, (if you read it in context with Illmatic's other thread regarding subjective magick) the fact that we ourselves often question our beliefs?

How can we expect the 'outside' world to accept what we think if we are constantly questioning ourselves? I find it unlikely (call me up if I'm wrong) that many Christians have endless discussions about the validity of their religion, because they believe. They may discuss the in's and out's of that belief, (for example the acceptance of female, or gay priests,) but they don't find it difficult to accept that God exists (that's critical to the fact that are Christian) and they don't have a problem with subjectivity, and they certainly don't have to constantly question whether everyone thinks they are mad, or odd, or Government hating.

I find it slightly upsetting that no-one (thus far) has even ventured into conversation about 2stepfan's Pagan announcement thread. This is a big deal if we are discussing subjectivity, is it not? if the 'Government' accepts Paganism (Magick) as a core religion, then the subjectivity of the religion is significantly reduced. You can't say, "I'm into magick, everyone thinks I'm weird and mad," and then in the same breath annouce that there is a Government funded body to support and champion the things that you believe in.

It's possible that making Paganism and magickal thinking a recognised religion is a way of 'controlling' it, but it does make it less 'subversive', doesn't it?
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:31 / 08.05.04
paganism was never subversive nor was magick, at another level of perception any force that conflicts with another could be seen to subvert that force, paganism is a literary creation much like magick they exsist both first as symbol and word, anything that exsists in these formats has to conform to the given rules of language.

ie it has to follow the programming, the programming language of consciousness in this case being the alpha numeric game we are taught to play from an early age, everything you think say and communicate in language is a conformity to that programming, only way to escape that is to conform to other sensory expression in the act of communication, even those senses have limitation in there design and conform to there construction, organic conformity is the norm in human beings, even outside agents like drugs come from an organic environment all thoughts are produced in an organic environment, ie the brain.

you can push past the social limits but cant help but not conform to the organic chaos. every act of subversion is an act of conformity to organic chaos as is every law rule trade transaction etc etc, you cant escape you must conform.

blimey what bullshit flows out sometimes.well enough you are borg nonsense.

trade is always conformity to the rules of trade, in the modern case currency, so most things that are bought or sold obey those mutual rules established by the parties at the time of that trade, economic systems are governed by multinational banks that establish currency and mediate its social flow.

every transaction made within that social system conforms to the rules of trade. from buying a mars bar to the latest gurus book, trade conforms to its own self serving system so that system may perpetuate itself, teachers generally perform a similar job in the education structure passing on their programming to the next generation so on and so forth, its not a perfect giving or recieveing of information but the surrounding social information reinforces the information taught, each generation believes its revolution was the one, but there just programmes, reiterating themselves from one generation to the next.
the subversion the change is in perception, the human symbol system, the roots of the structure remain the same an organic conspiracy for life to survive at whatever cost, indifferent to the human subversion. ignore the last bit.heh.
 
  
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