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Is it possible to be an atheist?

 
 
Opps!!
18:09 / 27.04.04
Just for the sheer hell of starting off this discussion - is it possible to truely be an atheist? Surely this is in itsself impossible.
 
 
Tom Morris
18:17 / 27.04.04
How, exactly, is it impossible to be an atheist? I find it quite possible to be an atheist. You simply hold the view that there is no evidence for a god or gods.
 
 
Opps!!
19:37 / 27.04.04
surely it depends on your definition and understanding of the term god. The idea of 'God' held by many seems a very restrictive set of beliefs when really a god could be anything you choose
 
 
bitchiekittie
19:42 / 27.04.04
you failed to answer the first question posed: how is it impossible?

whether we're talking about MY idea of a god or YOUR idea of a god, if I truly reject them all, how am I not an atheist?

unless you're including the guy who believes that his toaster is god, then all bets are off.
 
 
Tom Coates
19:59 / 27.04.04
There's been quite a lot of discussion around this topic already and several threads started about it. In my basic opinion the answer to your question is quite simple - that there are so many conceptions of divinity, no evidence for any of them, which places all those conceptions in the same class as that other infinite class of things that we have no evidence for which might be true - a class that might include invisible aliens all around us and infestations of microscopic underwear gnomes in our noses. At that point we are able to state that we do not believe in microscopic underwear gnomes, and even that - despite not having any evidence for their non-existence - we can pretty much say that things of this class do not exist. As a result I think I can say that 'god' doesn't exist. So yes, I have no evidence for the non-existence of god, but the burden of proof does not lie with me - it lies with the people making the astonishing and ludicrous unsupported claim that some kind of supernatural agency has creataed or motivated everything. I want to make this clear - that's not to say that I have any conception of how these things will manifest themselves, or what the answers may be. It's quite conceivable that of the infinite options that as yet don't have evidence to distinguish between, that one of them might be some god-like creature. I personally think the odds are so ridiculously low as to make it as close to ridiculously unlikely as an entire person quantum tunnelling through a wall - and I think given those odds and the range of alternative possibilities to phrase my lack of knowledge as 'not knowing about god' is ludicrous!
 
 
charrellz
20:00 / 27.04.04
But... my Dark Lord Cuisinart demands more innocent whole-wheat souls for his pit of flame...

I'm gonna guess that sjhrbr is thinking of the idea that many people will deify mundane objects or concepts (i.e. love, sex, money, toasters, your dead grand-parents, etc.) and essentially become religious by focusing their religious energies into channels atheism will allow.

OR

Perhaps sjhrbr is thinking that atheism is a doctrine within itself. By rejecting blind faith in deities, is one embracing blind faith in the lack of deities? (Is NoGod the same as God)

These may be right, or maybe he has a much cooler idea... only time will tell. Till then, I'm gonna find some jelly, cause now I really do want some toast. (BEHOLD! The bread has been reborn through the Lord KitchenAid! He is Crunchier, Darker, Tastier!)
Final note: I think there was already a thread on both my ideas, don't remember which forum or the name though.
 
 
Opps!!
20:06 / 27.04.04
Thanks Tom.
I must come clean in that i posted the question in order to raise dicussion and find information/views on a question that popped into my head. I hope this is exceptable within these virtual halls.

Any chance on links to the previous discussions
 
 
Opps!!
20:09 / 27.04.04
Perhaps sjhrbr is thinking that atheism is a doctrine within itself. By rejecting blind faith in deities, is one embracing blind faith in the lack of deities? (Is NoGod the same as God)

this is one of the possibilities i've been pondering. Any more ideas
 
 
Tom Coates
20:09 / 27.04.04
Other topics on atheism and the like:

Religion
The concept of divinity as conceived by the mainstream Christian church
Science as an atheists religion?
Questioning the validity of indoctrinated beliefs
Christianity as a hollow spiritual experience
Chosing a spiritual path
Does religion really help us?
Existence

To be honest, I'd rather that people read the arguments in some / any of these pre-existing threads and responded to them than start another thread where the old-timers can vent their conventional views again...
 
 
Opps!!
20:13 / 27.04.04
Thats fine. My apologies to all this was a very spontaneous posting - i quite link the idea of 'dropping' an idea and seeing what happens
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:13 / 27.04.04
Other questions:

Does atheism also mean disbelief in any supernatural phenomenon (skepticism)? Can you be an athiest and believe in ghosts? An afterlife?

Is atheism simply the disbelief in gods?

Also, is atheism an entirely intellectual or conscious action? Is it possible that the belief in god is unconsciously wired into the human mind?

Is believing that your life has a purpose or meaning the same as believing in God (sort of the "God is a Verb" approach of some mystical traditions)?
 
 
Opps!!
20:16 / 27.04.04
Does atheism also mean disbelief in any supernatural phenomenon (skepticism)? Can you be an athiest and believe in ghosts? An afterlife?

Is atheism simply the disbelief in gods?

Surely if you do believe in any of the above you need to seriously question your position in relation to atheism
 
 
Tom Coates
20:19 / 27.04.04
With regard to the faith in no god argument (which there is much more on in the above threads), the same arguments apply. The two statements (there is a god, there is no god) are not symmetrical - one asks people to hypothesise the existence of something for which there is no evidence or way of finding evidence, while the other simply places godhood in the same category as everything else we have no evidence for or ways of finding evidence for. One asks you to take a leap into faith, one asks you to stop privileging the one term 'god' as being distinct from the grotesque infinity of the unprovable and highly unlikely. If the statements were symmetrical - "the object in the box is blue" vs. "the object in the box is red" - then either position would be a statement of faith. But that is not the case in these circumstances. We have ways - trusted ways - the we evaluate the difference between plausible/likely/provable assertions and fantasy in all parts of our everyday life. This area should be no different.
 
 
Tom Coates
20:24 / 27.04.04
Atheism means without god, a- meaning without theo meaning god. Agnostic means without knowledge.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:24 / 27.04.04
I must come clean in that i posted the question in order to raise dicussion and find information/views on a question that popped into my head. I hope this is acceptable within these virtual halls.

Not *really...* Essentailly, you tend to get the level of discussion you start with. In this case, a brief and pretty effortless first post has led to some pretty poor responses and some wrist-smacking.

If you want to post at this level, then the Conversation is the place to go - you will get more responses. It might be worth reading some of the threads Tom has linked to. As it is, although there is no doubt a lot to be said about atheism, threads usually stick at around the level they come in on. As such, I'm thinking this is essentially a Conversation thread.
 
 
Opps!!
20:26 / 27.04.04
Again apologies, i'm new to this malarkie. Thanks to Tom for those links which i will digest over time
 
 
Opps!!
20:36 / 27.04.04
Actually no. Sorry Tanntamount to rudeness but i've just been to Conversation and looking at the posts it seems that i did choose the correct location as i wanted a serious answer to a question. Just because i stated it was spontanious doesn't mean it doesn't require serious thought.

appologies to others out there for wasting space with petty statements but i feel i must defend myself
 
 
Olulabelle
22:12 / 27.04.04
[Mini rant]

Sigh.

All this 'Google-get Barbelith-join-randomly post wherever you like without really thinking about either your topic or your topic location-ness' is starting to get on the proverbial tits. Just a weeny bit.

So many people have already said good things about the subject of Atheism, and what really frustrates me is when people just appear to want to have their say, and don't really care if anyone has already had the exact same conversation.

I started a topic recently that I deleted because someone pointed out to me that it had been already fairly exhaustively discussed.

My bad.

You know, I read this board for 4 months before I even dared to join, let alone post. Because I didn't want to make the wrong impression. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, all I know is I'm still here and haven't yet run away in a huff because I've been pulled up about something.

[End mini-rant.]
 
 
Bed Head
22:32 / 27.04.04
This really is the right place on the board for the kind of exploration of atheism it seems you’re hankering after, S. Besides, I think you’ll be surprised: I’m quite sure we can manage to converse to sjhrbr-level intelligence around here. As long as we keep those bally pie-worshipping primitives out, what?

I’m still not absolutely clear on why you think it’s impossible to be an atheist. After all, atheists *do* exist, or are you saying we’re all really believers in denial or misguided fools who have yet to see the light? The universe I live in doesn’t need all its countless mysteries to be explained away with an all-knowing, all-encompassing God, I’m afraid, and I see no need to go making that leap of faith TC was talking about. I rather think creation is infinitely more complex and wonderful, and essentially unknowable, than that.

Also: do you have an agenda here? Evangelical or otherwise. Because it’s good manners to announce it at the start if you do. You’ve been persisting quite hard with your ‘spontaneous’ questions without actually stating your own position anywhere.
 
 
HCE
00:21 / 28.04.04
A better question would be, is it possible to tell a Jehovah's witness who has knocked on your door three times that you want her to fuck off, given that she is a white-haired old lady and something in you just refuses to be rude to somebody your grandmother's age? Even if that person says "Well, at least you're not an atheist, are you?" uttering atheist in much the same tone as other might utter child molestor? Even if, when you reply that you are in fact an atheist, her response is to ask "Why? What happened?" which is, really, the height of fucking rudeness?

I am aware that this response might seem to be slightly off-topic at first glance, but I assure you that it is not.
 
 
Tom Morris
13:13 / 28.04.04
In response to sjhrbr's second post:
Yes, there is that issue. If you define God as a spirit of humanity, there is nothing solid to argue over, because that is a metaphor for a flexible philosophy (anything from humanism to nihilism could use that metaphor, and philosophers from the ancient days bang up to today use god as a metaphor). But if you think of god as a concrete idea, as many religious people do, as the creator of the Earth and all life on it, you can then be an atheist. I think Bertrand Russell's definition: "a supreme personal being -- distinct from the world and creator of the world" [1]. Some wishy-washy metaphor would not be a being under Russell's definition. Plus, for a god to be supreme - omnipotent and omniscient - it would have to exist. If it was a metaphor, it would not have omnipotence, as a metaphor is only as powerful as the writer who uses it. Therefore, if the defining characteristic of a supreme being is something that has omnipotence, a metaphor or loose spiritual belief would not count due to it's lack of supreme powers.

You assert that god could be anything. Logically, then, let us say God was a teapot. A teapot is essentially static. It has no discernible influence on the outside world: we can not influence it to do one thing or another (nor can it influence our decisions), it has no conscious decision making ability or ability to influence anybody else. It is not omniscient and not omnipotent, which means it does not fit the idea of being a supreme being. Why would people choose to put faith in it? What would be the purpose? They have nothing to gain from it (because a teapot could not reward them for being loyal servants) and nothing to lose from not putting faith in it (because a teapot is not powerful, it could not punish them for their disobedience).

As such, it would be ridiculous to say that God can be anything. It can be metaphorically refreshing in a soppy ecumenical kind of way, and quite a pleasant idea, but it is illogical as it denies the importance of faith - which is a key in the vast majority of religions.

Using the very loose definition that it is "anything you choose", then atheism does seem an untenable position. By being an atheist, one is advocating against 'anything you choose'. By that logic, if the anything you choose is lack of belief in a supreme being, then it would be strange to claim that an atheist is against the godly principle of atheism!

With Russell's defintion in mind, it is far easier to see why people become atheists specifically, and non-theists in general. The idea of a supreme being is, in the minds of many, a ridiculous due to it's implausibility. The chances of such a being existing are quite low. The chance of us proving the existence or otherwise of such a being are even lower than that. If you combine that with the many different faiths that people hold (if you assert the Judeo-Christian-Islam God of Abraham, how can it exist alongside that of, I dunno, Zeus or Thor? Do they, as Miles Kington suggested in The Independent the other day, have a committee meeting?)

The New Fontana Dictionary of Modern Thought gives a good explanation of the cultural variability of atheism: "the meaning of 'atheism' is, in reality, context-specific, determined by the dominant forms of religious belief in any particular time and place. In the ancient world, the charge of atheism was levelled against the philosophical and theological opponents of polytheistic orthodoxies, including Jews and Christians, but it is their theism which constitutes the semantic background to most forms of atheism in the modern world."

To me, atheism is interconnected with Enlightenment values, a rejection of fundamentalism (of all strands) and a base that society can not be without. It is precisely this worldview which Daniel Harbour argues for [2]. The political aspects of being a non-believer are equally important. As Harbour writes: "Religious doctrine and sentiment are in the mouths of politicians and in the minds of think-tanks. If there, they are also surely on the statute book. So, while the atheist is not debating the worth of religion, while he is being accomodating, the theist is busy influencing politics and society on the basis of his or her beliefs."

[1] This definition is taken from Russell's broadcast debate with Father Coplestone which can be found in the collection of essays "Why I Am Not A Christian", and is reproduced online here.
[2] Daniel Harbour, "An Intelligent Person's Guide To Atheism". Duckbacks, 2001.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
16:58 / 28.04.04
Mostly restating what has already been said, but try this:

An atheist believes that the sun will rise tomorrow. If you insist on treating this as faith-with-a-capital-f, perhaps you need to examine rather more than your concept of atheism.
 
 
charrellz
19:51 / 28.04.04
Regarding the idea that everyday objects can not be gods: What if you treat an object (like a teapot) the way others treat the idea of god or their shrine? In other words, Say I've got a pair of shoes I really love. I begin to associate wearing the shoes with good things. Eventually, I start to believe that only through the shoes will good things happen. I say things like "Come on shoes, don't fail me now!" or "Thanks awesome shoes!" I don't walk in mud or gum or smelly things becasue the shoes would not like that.
Isn't that sort of deifying shoes? I'm attributing power and control to something outside of myself - something I rely on, ask for help, and believe that it answers me and aids me.

Not everyone does this, but alot do something similar (think of your relationship with your computer perhaps). I'm not saying it is impossible to be an atheist, just that it may be tricky sometimes.
 
  
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