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Greedo shot first? You fat bastard!

 
  

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Benny the Ball
08:38 / 25.04.04
We all know the big errors of Lucas' goiter on the classics, the anfer is strong in the fan base for not letting us see the originals as we originally saw them. But what has he done right with the new films, and what little thing irked you, what bothered you? Has your childhood been raped? Or do you tingle with excitment waiting for ep. III?

For me; I really hated that he replaced Vader's 'Bring my shuttle' line in Empire with a long order that made no sense in the contenxt. He was pissed off, couldn't care less about making small talk to a stormtrooper, so why the big monologue?

What I liked, well, despite Ep. I being a bit dull, and Anakin being a twat (whoppee?!) when the doors opened to reveal Darth Maul, the music built and Liam Neeson says 'we'll handle this' that was the only moment that I felt like I was watching one of the classic films.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:02 / 25.04.04
There is an excellent chapter in the book Using the Force about these debates.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:07 / 25.04.04
I imagine you have a copy of Using the Force kicking around - what sort of conclusions are reached?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:48 / 25.04.04
O you and your gentle "please tell me more about that" moderation! I shall look at this excellent and reasonably-priced book after I get back from Kill Bill 2.
 
 
PatrickMM
18:09 / 25.04.04
I've only seen the ANH and Jedi special editions once, in the theater in '97, and Empire twice, having owned the 80's VHS, then more recently, bootleg DVDs of the originals, so it's a bit tough to comment. But, from what I recall, some of the effects shots were better, however the Luke scream in ESB is unforgivable. My favorite thing from the SEs would have to be the many celebrations at the end of Jedi, and the accompanying music cue. Great as it is, the series should not end with Yub Yub playing.

As for the prequels, I love the look of the movies, particularly Episode II, which was just beautifully designed. Episode I suffered from having too many random aliens there for comic relief, but that was basically cured in II. Some of the dialogue is awful, but the action sequences are generally great, and the movies have a massive scope that's quite impressive.

I think the main problem with the prequels is that Natalie Portman and both people playing Anakin just can't deliver the lines. Ewan, Samuel L. Jackson, Christopher Lee, they kill no matter how cheesy the line, and Ian McDiarmid is just fabulous. But, Natalie Portman, though she's great in other stuff, and looks great, just can't deliver the pulp style dialogue without sounding dumb.
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:16 / 25.04.04
Kovacs, did you write Using the Force?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:18 / 25.04.04
Eh, did you like Using the Force, Benny.

I could go thru my well-thumbed copy of that book but it would be far more interesting to give my own thoughts off the top of my head. Suffice to say there are several Special Editions Annotation sites that discuss every change between the OT and SE in monkishly pedantic detail.

Personally, I dislike most SE alterations.

- The Mos Eisley scenes are now just filled out with CGI background comedy, like Mos Espa in The Phantom Menace. The original version of the cantina seems to have a genuinely 1970s feel -- something...real that you only get when you put a bunch of extras in a bar and shoot them on actual film. That endearing sense of an authentic place is totally flattened out for me when I see a digitised expansion of the city created on a computer in 1997, and funny alien monsters doing slapstick things for me to spot on DVD frame by frame. It's "improved" for a culture of Easter Egg hunters who take pleasure from looking for the Outrider or a swoop bike from the EU. The original actually gave me the feeling of being a kid walking into an adult bar in 1977. A bar in Harlem.

- Most of the changes are stupid Muppet Show mentality. The Jabba's Palace band is horrible in this respect. We don't need to see fucking Sy Snootles pushing her lips out at the camera like Gonzo Dog or whatever. We don't need a comedy Yuzzum playing a saxophone. (Excuse my inaccuracy...I can't bring myself to study this shit closely).

- The "Greedo Shot First" revision is a pathetic ret-con to bring the cynical Han Solo of A New Hope in line with the family man, rebel hero figure of Episode VI -- and more broadly, with fucking Harrison Ford's bland star persona from 1983 onwards.

THE PREQUEL TRILOGY:

- The scene with Jango and Obi-Wan talking in his apartment has a nice, adult quality to my mind. There's a very quiet sense of threat and tension, and again that feeling I mentioned with the original cantina scene, of being a kid listening in on grown-up stuff. Maybe this is important to me because I was a kid in 77, but I liked the impression we get that Boba knows his Dad is dealing with something major, and that he subtly, loyally helps out without really knowing what the two adults are getting at beneath their polite, loaded conversation.

- The burial of Shmi Skywalker (sp?) evoked the dignified simplicity of religion in John Ford films -- entirely appropriately, as this was a return to Tatooine and the whole scene of Luke discovering his dead Aunt and Uncle was a fabulous tribute to The Searchers.
 
 
Benny the Ball
22:27 / 25.04.04
Haven't read it, sorry. Got good reviews on Amazon though.

I know what you mean about Mos Eisley (sic?). I loved when I was a kid that people in the background cheered and clapped when the band went into a different song, as though an old favourite was being played. It was the little touches like that which made the whole thing real - using CGI makes it all unreal. And turning Han Solo into a comedy character for Ep. VI was horrible. Him messing up when trying to look cool, after he had been such a top character in Ep. V - I mean he pulls his gun and shoots at Vader in the blink of an eye when Lando sells him out, and not just once, a few times, and in different places, trying to avoid Vader's jedi blocks. Ep. VI I think may actually upset me if I think about it anymore...
 
 
matsya
23:54 / 25.04.04
Jedi is a kid's film and by the time most of the "star wars generation" got to 1983 we were beginning to be too old. I was five when I saw Star Wars and eleven when I saw Jedi. The clue to the kid's film mentality, more than the ewoks, is the first scene on Tatooine, outside jabba's palace, with the big muppet eating the little muppet. It's all squeals and burps. Toilet humour abounds in jabba's palace. yuk it up. the kids love it.

from there on, i was no longer the demographic.

sorry - well off topic. moderator delete if you think it's right.

m.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:32 / 26.04.04
and the accompanying music cue

You serious? I thought that music was appalling. Bring back "Yub Yub", I say, even though no Ewok lover me.
 
 
matsya
07:03 / 26.04.04
my brother knows the WORDS to yubyub. great party trick.

m.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:05 / 26.04.04
I know all Greedo's dialog by heart.
 
 
Benny the Ball
07:19 / 26.04.04
I know all of the dialogue by that guy that comes in second in ROTJ after Han has thrown his rucksack at one of the Imperial fellows by heart...

'You Rebel scum!' (rocks on heels)
 
 
.
13:20 / 26.04.04
Basically you can sum up all that is wrong with the new films and the special editions in three simple letters - CGI. It's as simple as that. Where once we had effortlessly cool models and men in rubber suits, slightly wonky in places sure, but real, now we have completely overdone computer graphics. The animators are obviously an enthusiastic bunch, as they just can't stop themselves working more and more detail in, hugely distracting detail that only ever highlights how unreal the CGI is. And the bloody CGI characters never seem to be able to stand still - has anyone else noticed how much CGI characters bob around compared to the actors? It's as if bobbing around is the only shorthand animators have for making characters look, er, animated... And now, whenever there's a crowd of something, be it people or spaceships or whatever, there always has to be thousands of the stupid things, even if it would cooler to just have a few on screen... Now I'm no great fan of the original trilogy, but I think it has already aged better visually than the new two, just because the CGI dates so quickly.

That said, it was a good job getting rid of the massive blue screen halos from the original trilogy.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:19 / 26.04.04
Dee ta toota, Solo?

The 'Greedo Shoots First' Doctrine marks the beginning of the end for George Lucas. Han Solo was a mercenary and a bit of a selfish bastard who was facing down a guy who was threatening to kill him every other sentence. He's not a murderer in that scene, he's a bad-ass smuggler. Lucas saying "he's a hero and heroes don't kill" is kind of ridiculous...it's not like it's Dudley Do-Right shooting Greedo, for fuck's sake. And the whole point of Han's arc is that he becomes more principled and less selfish as the films go on. All the Special Editions pretty much suck, and foreshadowed the serious lack of quality of EPISODES I, II (and doubtless, III).
 
 
FinderWolf
19:22 / 26.04.04
Oh, and call me crazy, but I like the original Ewok song at the end of ROTJ too. Mamme duka-dah, yub yub!!! (words approximated phoenetically)
 
 
Warewullf
22:14 / 26.04.04
CGI artists working on movies need to learn the difference between what looks good and what looks real.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:20 / 26.04.04
The main problem with the use of CGI characters (other than the director's desire to have them fiddling about every second they're on screen) is that the animators seem to have a real hard time of making them look like they have weight - their actions don't take account of gravity. It's odd that multi-billion dollar companies can't get this right, when hobbyist animators can (if anyone can remember the link to the home-made Transformers anim, that's a good example).

But to say that the computer-generated stuff is the only problem with the special editions is to ignore a hell of a lot of other crappy additions. The Solo/Jabba scene in IV isn't just pointless, it also breaks the flow of that section of the film - feels entirely out of place where it crops up - and has that terrible hovering Han bit, where they decided that he had to step over Jabba's tail and made him jerk into mid-air to do so. Needless - they could have just left him walking around the CG character and nobody would have blinked.

The one thing that really worked as an improvement was adding views from the snowspeeder windows in V. That's the only time where the altered scenes or new material didn't feel tacked on and actually enhanced the experience of watching the movie.
 
 
matsya
00:06 / 27.04.04
yeah, lucas and his buddy spielberg (to a lesse extent) seem obsessed with re-doing what they've ostensibly finished. the reworked ET with all the CGI (and edited out gun) is another example of this bizarre obsession. how about writing a NEW story, guys?

m.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:24 / 27.04.04
Yeah, one other improvement apart from the obvious clean-ups is the views outside Cloud City. Previously just white corridor, the SE includes some gorgeous amber vistas of the mining equipment and floating bulbous buildings.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:29 / 27.04.04
It's funny, I'm reading this fascinating article about a complete definitive lack of free will and it's sort of crystalized my feelings about the Special Editions and, more importantly, those who grouse about them.

George Lucas is the driving force behind those three movies that everyone so delicately loves and never ever want to see harmed or altered in anyway (even though, as someone already pointed out, you can get them on DVD in the best format available since the Special Editions altered the original prints in such a way that there's no way anything can be done with the original cuts/versions of the films anyway). The same motivation he had to make those three films, caused him to improve them, to tell the story he wanted to. Whether it was something he wanted to from the beginning or something he decided on later, it was still him. Just because we were lucky enough to see the first drafts of three of the chapters of this film in a presentable format, does not mean that Lucas has to somehow cater to the idea that his final draft of the film is somehow invalid, simply because we got to see the earlier ones. If Dickens wanted to change chapters of Great Expectations after they were serialized in order for them to make more sense or to fit in an idea he had in the middle of the fortieth installment about the fifteenth, then let him. It's his fucking story. Everything you're seeing before the huge wallet gouging release of the entire saga on DVD circa 2006 is an early draft. Feel free to prefer an earlier version (my friend still likes the Unmastered Version of "Punch Up At A Wedding" to the version on Hail To The Thief) but any accusations of "The Beginning Of The End For Lucas" are grand and scoff-inducing logical fallacy of the most fatbearded sort.

That being said, I have space in my heart for both versions of the end of ROTJ. The Yub Yub song is a permanent classic and, really, the best ending for that version of the trilogy. The SE ending of ROTJ is much more in keeping with the end of the entire saga. Less jokey, more galaxy spanning, and more somber. Yub Yub signals the end of Luke's Trilogy. The SE closer is the end of Anakin's Saga.

I saw all of the Special Editions in college, mostly with the same two people. One of them was a wet blanket of the highest order, the other shared my complete awe for the pure acreage of bad ass stuff he put in there: Improved X-Wings, a Jabba Band that didn't look like the Muppet Show, and Mos Friggin Eisely! Anyone who didn't absolutely love that first pan into Mos Eisley has just suffocated their poor inner child to death.

Who cares if its CGI? It's just as fake and unconvincing as Muppets, dude! Did you really think that the Proto-Nemoidian in the Cantina was some horifically disfigured sufferer of Elephant Man's disease the first time around? Let yourself go! Trust your feelings!

Anyone who walks into a Star Wars movie with anything more than the Badass Detectory Lobe of their brain turned on will be and deserves to be disappointed.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:56 / 27.04.04
Fair enough, Birdie, but what about Greedo shooting first?

Yeah, they're Lucas's babies, but his Stalinist treatment of them once they reached adolescence, as far as I'm concerned, sucks.

Some of the "cleaning up", effects-wise, like the Clud City stuff, and (I agree) the extra detail in Mos Eisley (the drunk Jawa rocked) was good. But to fundamentally change the nature of one of your best-loved characters is a bit shit.

And ARE the originals available on DVD? I think not. As far as I remember, the VHSs of the original trilogy have been deleted, and the Special Editions are all you can get.
 
 
_Boboss
15:34 / 27.04.04
the only extra bit that really rocks ass is the wampa stuff.

the rest of it looks, well, shitter than muppets.

oh and i like the loads of storm troopers when han rounds the corner as well.

lucas, of course, may do what he wants to his movies (dickens couldn't have, not a brilliant analogy that one), and i may do what i want to his movies as well. if that includes slagging them for looking crap and stripping dramatic impact from the earlier edits, then that's all good. if it includes judging lucas to be several rungs down the morality ladder from the kiddyfiddlers, then that's all good too.

look at his beard.

yeah you heard me lucas, LOOK AT YOUR BEARD!!!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:57 / 27.04.04
Birdie:

Well, firstly, you seem to be making the mistake of presuming that everybody who's complained about the SEs is either a fatbeard or doing so for fanboyish reasons. That just ain't so - me, I think IV and V are decent, fun films. Not a huge amount more than that. So any criticisms I have of the additions and changes are purely based on how they affect the films, not how they affect my "delicate love" for them.

As I already said, some of the extra scenes alter the pacing for the worse. The purposeful, lean pace of IV is made flabby in areas - the aforementioned Solo/Jabba scene being the worst offender.

The use of CGI is a problem for two reasons, neither of which are particularly due to its nature as CGI. Firstly, there's a visible contrast between the computer generated stuff and the old muppets/models. You can easily tell the new scenes from the old ones, even if you've never seen the films before. It breaks any sense of coherence in the films and the universe when a flashy CG scene is intercut with a couple of miniature pans - see the space battle at the end of IV SE for a good example of this. A more sensible option would have been to replace the old stuff entirely or make a better job of dirtying up the new bits.

The second problem is the distracting nature of some of the CG elements. The inclusion of CG creatures and robots in the altered Mos Eisley scenes is a negative mostly because it pulls the audience's attention away from the main characters and their dialogue and instead forces them to focus on incidental, unimportant background details. This is simply bad filmmaking. Again, it's a complaint about the CGI elements, not - as you would have it - because of some hypocritical special effects luddism, but purely because of the manner in which they've been used. Lucasfilm here forgot that their purpose was to improve the original films and instead decided to use the opportunity to showcase their technical skills, rather than their skills as storytellers.

These are problems with the movies as movies, not as Star Wars movies.

Yeah, they're Lucas' property and of course he has the right to decide if and how he alters them. That's not my complaint. My compaint is that he made some astonishingly bad choices, many of which actually prevent the films from being as enjoyable or effective as they were in their previous form.

Stoatie: SEs are all that's available now, either on VHS or DVD.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:46 / 27.04.04
I was referring to the bootleg copies that someone mentioned getting on DVD. That would be one's best bet from here to the end of time as far as the original versions of the OT goes. Unless we all get surprised in the next few years.

I don't think any of the five so far films are paced even remotely well. As far as my enjoyment goes, like I said, I'm in it for the cool stuff. I doubt I'll ever sit through Qui Gon's nighttime pontificating ever again. Thank you, DVD Skip Technology. If we're looking at this from a "Good Film" standpoint then the argument is over before it has started. Lucas, structurally, is a terrible storyteller. Melding an operatic structure with Flash Gordon cliffhangery and adventure would and could never result in an engaging an involving twelve hour film.

Why couldn't Dickens have changed parts in Great Expectations before a collected edition? I don't get it. Editorial restrictions?

It breaks any sense of coherence in the films and the universe when a flashy CG scene is intercut with a couple of miniature pans - see the space battle at the end of IV SE for a good example of this. A more sensible option would have been to replace the old stuff entirely or make a better job of dirtying up the new bits.

I'm kind of saving thoughts on this wholly valid argument until everything's finished in 2006. There's an equally valid argument to be made that the original trilogy would look ridiculously out of place when compared with the three movies that were supposed to have taken place before it. Nearly everything seems to have been done in order to avoid that inconsistency.

I didn't mean to intimate that there were views on here arising from "CGI Ludditity". This argument is thousands of leagues more reasoned than most of the arguments that crop up about the Special Editions. I was only saying that those sorts of arguments are silly, not that the overarching discussion here was necessarily displaying them. It was just that "Beginning Of The End" bit. My beef with that has nothing to do with CGI and everything to do with Authorial Integrity. Like or not, it's his story. He never "Began To End" to be George Lucas.

The inclusion of CG creatures and robots in the altered Mos Eisley scenes is a negative mostly because it pulls the audience's attention away from the main characters and their dialogue and instead forces them to focus on incidental, unimportant background details. This is simply bad filmmaking.

Just another example of thousands. To be honest, at that moment I could care less about the characters. I wanted to (and actually can't wait to, this September) pause the movie and paw over every luscious detail in the shot. Completely detrimental to the narrative flow of the film, absolutely, but irrelavent to me. Honestly, what draws me to the films, and what drew me as a mop-haired kiddo, is Lucas' nigh-limetless imagination when it comes to visual detail. C3PO, Ewoks, Cloud City, Jabba The Hutt, Darth Vader, Lightsabers, Doublesided Lightsabers, Battle Droids, Gungans, Podracers, Jawas; these are what fascinate me about Star Wars and the reason I watch the movies. I don't think that makes them well-constructed films in the least. His ability to go back and work on the films allows me to see even more awesome detail and cool little things he and his army of crafstmen have made up for my enjoyment.

I also happen to like that odd CGI walk that all the characters seem to have. After Episode I, I walked around with a Jar Jar lope for like months.

But yeah. I can't complain about a detriment to his narrative techniques, because I never really believed they were there in the first place.

I mean, honestly, from the opening moments of dialogue in Episode IV, you know exactly what you're in for. Leaden dialogue, incredible (in the most literal sense of the word) plots, uneven story construction, completely 2-Dimensional characters, and some of the most riveting visual spectacle you're ever likely to see.

Look no further than the IRIS OUT after Anakin has just SLAUGHTERED an entire VILLAGE. If you use Busby Berkley moves in a Kurosawa scene? You are a bad storyteller! Eeeeugh!

(That should sound like Leia in the Garbage Hatch, by the way, for those of you who hear what you read in your head.)
 
 
Loomis
10:09 / 28.04.04
I walked around with a Jar Jar lope for like months.

Did you get kneed in the back by total strangers?

Your points are fair enough, but you really liked Jar Jar that much? How? Why?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
11:06 / 28.04.04
Well, I was working in a corporate record store at the time and was living at home and dealing with serious self esteem issues.

Ha!

No, that's all true, but really I was just amazed at the acheivement. I remember me and my friend just completely stunned at that one moment when Jar Jar and Boss Nass are walking away from that Sit Rep meeting with Queen Amidala, Boss Nass makes Jar Jar a General and pats him on the shoulder. Jar Jar kinda looks around sheepishly. Neither of those people exist.

Plus he's such an underdog, on and off screen. How could you not love someone so reviled by a man so fat he needs a cane to walk? And somehow could even bring a review of Freddy Vs. Jason back to how much he misses his Mom. What a freak! The more Harry Knowles is self rightously appalled by something, the more I'll love it. Except The Village. That will be a reprehensible pile.

Back on topic, though. I don't know, I just really dug the goofy bastard, but probably only because everyone hated him so much that they seemed to be completely missing how he totally worked. He looked realer than Anakin at that dinner table scene where they CGI'd him looking up at his Mom.

And come on, man. "Steady. Steady." was Top Ten Star Wars Moments Ever material guaranteed. I want an entire 20 Minute sequence of 3P0 and Jar Jar in the Sewers under Coruscant, just tripping over shit and arguing.

Maybe George can find the room.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:22 / 28.04.04
Re: the point of view that the first 3 SW movies have cheesy dialogue and cliche storytelling -- I agree, but somehow they work so well... the characters are great spins on archetypes, the actors are (for the most part) charming and all are just perfectly cast, and for me, therefore even the cheesiness comes off in a beautiful, epic sense. It's like it just got the formula RIGHT. It's like that faux Shakespearean that Stan Lee used to channel in his comics, esp. THOR and other books - cheesy but somehow it strikes a nerve and just feels so right. And although the script of the first 3 is hardly genius, in a weird, sort of kitschy way it is, whereas the scripts of Ep's I and II are just aw-ful. That's just my take on it.
 
 
PatrickMM
02:49 / 29.04.04
The originaly trilogy are still my favorite films of all time, particularly Empire. And, it's not just childhood nostalgia, they're just visually on an entirely different level than anything else out there, the score is one of the best ever, and the character's actions have such scope. I can think of no other films than build such a cohesive and interesting world as the Star Wars films do. Even in the original trilogy, the dialogue isn't always great, but it works in the same way that Kill Bill Volume I's slightly stilted dialogue works. You just have to accept the world and immerse yourself in it, without asking the questions you would of most films. It's playing on a different level.

As for the prequels, I think one of the biggest problems is that at once the scope isn't as big, and at the same time, the characters feel removed from the action. In the OT, our heroes are the ones doing everything, each plot action is motivated by character choices. The droids choose to flee the starship, leading them to Luke, who chooses to leave Tatooine, where they find Han, who chooses to help them on the Death Star, and to Leia who chooses to lead with the alliance. Then in Empire, it's Han's past that brings him to Lando, and the entire final sequence is motivated by character's desires, Han wants to protect his friends, so he takes the carbonite, Luke wants to save his friends, so he leaves his training, Darth wants to capture Luke, so he initiates the whole operation, and so on.

In the prequels, the causality comes from the outside. There's trouble on Naboo, so the Jedi are sent there to defend it. There's not the real personal investment. In Episode II, people just sort of go around randomly, until there's a big fight. There's not as strong character driven cause and effect links. It feels like all the big action happens behind the scenes. Hopefully, in III, things will be more character driven, and less arbitrarily plotted.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:01 / 18.05.04
a Lucas change I actually am okay with (you have to wade through some AICN junk to get to it):


It's a bit bizarre, but it seems fine to me...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:29 / 19.05.04
this appears to be a fake...i've seen some convincing comparisons that point to it being a well produced composite of Hayden's head on the other actor's squished down body...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:16 / 19.05.04
Eh...where exactly is the logic in Anakin looking 25 when Obi-Wan looks the age he did when he died? Shouldn't we be seeing Ewan McGregor as Kenobi, if we're retconning them into prettyboys?
 
 
Warewullf
09:38 / 19.05.04
Ah, that's gotta be a fake.

Sweet Lucifer, let it be fake...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:56 / 19.05.04
theforce.net

seem unsure... I wouldn't put it past GL, to be honest. And the possible hidden spoiler on that site just SUCKS.

Although they do say there's been tinkering with the Han/Greedo scene... maybe (please God) Greedo DIDN'T shoot first after all? Maybe Lucas actually LISTENED? Maybe schmaybe.

Hoping that pic's a fake, though.
 
 
Spaniel
11:17 / 19.05.04
Bet it's fucking real.

The man's an wanker.
 
  

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