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Right-wing magicians?

 
 
Skeleton Camera
18:46 / 23.04.04
Coming from the Invisibles-dreams thread, as well as the social responsibility thread, I wonder about right-wing magician groups. In my limited experience within magical culture (not counting this here board and my weird friends) I have found a number of practicioners to be generally to very conservative. This mind you is within a neo-pagan context, which I think has a lot to do with it. Respect for tradition and all that. Have you found the same? And if so what are the implications?
 
 
Sobek
19:24 / 23.04.04

I have been called "right-wing", but generally by people that are pretty muddled on politics. I certainly do not use that label myself. Of course, for some, "Individualist" automatically equals "right-wing" in the way that "anti-Israel" equals "anti-semitic", I suppose.

The people that I have encountered that do label themselves that way, tend to be involved with things like Asatru or the works of Julius Evola and so on, or whatever is the equivalent tradition of their national or group ideal (Facist Brahmins, Neo-Aztecs and so on).
 
 
Magister Lewdi
22:14 / 25.04.04
Left/Right is a bogus dichotomy, probably created by the likes of The Bush Crime Family et al (and their usually unseen masters -- Bushes being "downstairs people," and all). In a nutshell...

Liberal: One who gives up (your) liberty for (her) temporary security.

Conservative: One who loves (his) money better than (your) freedom.

What's the flipping difference?

Normally, "Conservatives" give us the negative part of "nationalism," while the "Liberals" force the negative side of "Socialism" down our craw. We need the positive side of both, but don't say I'm calling for National Socialism, because that's not entirely true :-)

The limited number of views for this thread demonstrate that most people understand politics to be bunk. Magick is more potent than voting, but you'll need to seed the population at large with the correct memes, which you may need to create in the first place. Never avoid the opportunity to attend the poles on election day, however. Just don't vote for those of whom you neither know nor approve. What if a million people attended the polls, and not one vote was cast? What if a million people wanked a sigel to assure that the next "pretzel" would be a mite larger?

Julius Evola? He knew his stuff, but so does Mystress Tina Mosupre (pbuH).


Magister Lewdi
Project Manager for The Starry Wisdom Sect
 
 
LykeX
23:15 / 25.04.04
Hey, that's an idea. Wank over a sigil in the voting booth. Surely the fear of getting caught will help with regard to forgetting the sigil.
Not that i'm going to do it, though.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
23:35 / 25.04.04
Let us investigate these terms "left-wing" and "right-wing", shall we?

The French National Assembly way back in 1789 was established to transfer control of issues, like taxation, from the king to the citizens. A proto-parliament, if you like.

Now, when the members of the National Assembly gathered, members of the 'Third Estate' (revolutionaries) sat on the left, whilst members of the 'First Estate' (nobles) sat on the right. This tradition has been seen carried on to various nations, often intentionally (call it psyops). In some cases, as it was in the French case, the people who sat on the left-wing of the chamber went ahead after a few years and killed a lot of the people sitting on the right, so, in the end, they got to fill both sets of seats.

Now, if we examine the terms "left" and "right" themselves, we have a further dynamic between them. We'll start with the Left.

The Left Path of Western magic tradition is commonly considered to include the darker arts, including Satanism and that like, in their ranks. This is to say, the Left is associated with the sinister, the dark and the foolhardy. If we look it up in the dictionary, we see that the term "Left" comes from the Old English for weak. It might also be associated with Latin notions of being sinister. Neither of these seem to be particularly positive, especially if one believes that language is magical.

This takes us back over to the Right. Right, as in correct, as in just, as in all manner of positive things. Right-hand dominance and left-hand feebleness comes back into this traditional use, wherein the left-hand would be used for cleaning up after bathroom activities. Translate this into things like Jesus Christ sitting to the right hand of God or Jesus speaking about placing the sheep to his left and goats to his right.

Back to the political side of things, there is a distinction of thought between economics and social policy. We have economically conservative (Capitalism, traditional market economics) and economically liberal (associated with Communism, Socialism, government regulations). We have socially conservative (associated with traditional values, stronger pro-communal) and socially liberal (associated with abolishment of regressive values, stronger pro-individual).

Which is to say, I know several economic conservative + social liberal 'magicians'. They tend to call themselves the true liberals when they're feeling fiesty.

The implications of the right-wing participating in magic are no more important than the implications of the left-wing participating in magic. It's an all access party. Drop your pants and you're in!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:40 / 25.04.04
The limited number of views for this thread demonstrate that most people understand politics to be bunk

Or perhaps we don't understand the validity of the question? I've met magicians and coven members who were right wing, left wing and right from the middle of the middle ground. I used to exchange emails with a witch who's husband was an Odinist Zionist Republican. I very much doubt that either of them would understand politics to be bunk and I certainly don't.
 
 
Magister Lewdi
22:49 / 26.04.04
> I very much doubt that either
> of them would understand
> politics to be bunk and
> I certainly don't.


Hmmm.. I guess they're not "most people." In fact, I'm sure of it!

Republican Zionist Odinist, you say? I'm not certain where he'd be "coming from." Are you saying that he worships Odin, but he digs that genocidal tribal nomad god who rides around in a burning bush? That unclean mountain spirit from nine time zones away, I mean? Old YHWH, the hamstringer of horses? The despoiler of foreskins? Yikes! Double Yikes!(Clutches crotch :-)
 
 
Skeleton Camera
01:03 / 27.04.04
I wasn't looking to start a dualistic party-politics discussion. What's interesting to me are the syntheses and the cultural relationships between perceived divisions. It's very hard to discuss these without bringing down a slew of "this and that are irrelevant distinctions" comments. Of course, a lot of it is my own fault for not establishing ahead of time that I am exploring dualism, not operating from a dualistic perspective. And I'm not exploring it as in flirting with it but rather exploring it as a cultural occurrance and as an illusory state of being.

That said, what exactly is an Odinist Zionist Republican? What kind of belief structure does this facilitate? I was briefly with a coven that was on one hand extremely left in terms of practices and beliefs, but also very pro-right in terms of supporting the military and traditionalism and so on. It's human nature of course to not be one or the other, of course. But HOW the combination occurs is the interesting part.

(I have a semantic problem, donchaknow. I'm getting it looked at and there are some good cures currently available for it. Should be gone in a month or two.)
 
 
penitentvandal
20:06 / 27.04.04
When I go on a political rant and people start throwing around terms like 'inconsistency', 'baseless prejudice', 'unabashed hatred' and 'despicable self-interest' (which happens a lot) I tend to hit them with what I call my four-dimensional politics defence. Here's how it works:

Two-sided politics is two-dimensional. You only have the left wing and the right wing. It's flat, and has as much relation to real space-time events as a circle drawn on the ground has to a bubble, to quote a certain funnybook.

When you introduce centrist politics you get three dimensions, which is closer to a description of space, at least, but not space-time. Three-dimensional politics is only ever an accurate depiction of the political situation at a frozen point on the timeline.

As things change over time, a fourth dimension needs to be added to politics - and my way of doing this is to argue that what is the right course of action changes with time. So at some point extremely libertarian measures may be called for, while at another point a more draconian policy may be efficacious. The finesse of politics is in deciding when, where, and with whom to apply such distinctions. This means that I'm free to adopt a mixture of left and right wing viewpoints, and can change my opinion as warranted by time. So, for example, I'm for the legalisation of many drugs, but only with the proviso that everyone be given a license to do so and have their drug privileges revoked if they behave stupidly under the influence; I have no racial prejudices but believe that stupid people should be culled; I'm a member of CND but I supported the war in Afghanistan (but not the war in Iraq). Four-dimensional politics.

Of course, when I make this argument to people they tend to either go 'uh?' or start throwing around phrases like 'Satan', 'Nixon', 'Machiavelli' and 'have your cake and eat it', but fuck 'em. It's a cake: what else am I gonna do with it?
 
 
LykeX
23:19 / 27.04.04
I agree totally when it comes to mixing traditional right-left viewpoints, and also with regard to changing your mind whenever you feel like it. I'm a little more conserned about the whole "draconian policy" thing, though. It seems it would be easy for some general to say: "What this country needs is a strong leader, not more civil rights" and then just take over the whole thing. Of course, they can still do that now... Never mind.

And, sorry to be petty, but the right-left political model is actually one-dimensional, not two dimensional.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
00:46 / 28.04.04
"Four-dimensional politics."

Amen. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry - A Lady.

Great point with this - the idea of a person being 'either' Left or Right has too many built-in assumptions and absurdities. We live in a world with Gay Baptist Republicans. And Odinist Zioniest Republicans (note: the present Author has no fucking concept for that one). Deconstruction of this rigid duality certainly helps. Not to mention voting third party. The 'wasted vote' meme seems the only thing keeping the US from having a third (or fourth) party. Which'd be nice, as the first two act as seperate heads of the same best.

That said -

"I have no racial prejudices but believe that stupid people should be culled" - velvetvandal

I've seen a good bit of this attitude in occult and education circles. It scares the shit out of me. OK, right, the world does not need more stupidity - very true. However, 'culling' stupid people? First note the Orwellian doublespeak. How do you 'cull' people? How do you make them choose to exit from the surrounding culture? Unless the poster meant for smart people to ship the dumb 'uns to one geographically isolated area - a 'stupid' idea in and of itself - then the 'stupid' people have to die.

This suggests that one cannot willfully alter one's intelligence, a belief denounced by common precepts of magic (anything is possible, et all).

To wit: I used to behave in fairly ignorant ways. Through the magickal ritual of opening a book and decoding its esoteric language and metaphor, and applying certain exercises to my nervous system, I've gotten smarter. Anyone can do this. The concept that stupid people just need to get it over with and die ignores our own metamorphosis from idiocy to intelligence. You were not born smart - you earned it. Should society encourage people to earn this, to want to earn it? Sure, because stupid people piss me off (and start wars/famine/disease/traffic jams that endanger all). We need magic advertisements for spontaneous brain growth in the people who already want it. Art can be used to foster a love of the intellectual sovereignity all possess. We can help stupid people change, but not until we see that they have as much right to live as anyone else.


[catches breath]

PS - Odd thing is that I love the rest of your points, vandal. I agree with you on everything else. If I've read too much into an 'off-hand' remark, just let me know. It just seems so out of place; it seems a pretty clear example of a fairly abhorrent, yet surprisingly common belief of occultists all ovah the place. You're free to keep it - I just want to understand it.

How do you back this up? What do you really mean with the word 'cull'? And why does this come up after the 'i'm no racist' disclaimer? Why would you think that others would associate this belief with racism? Would you say that this view of humanity is conservative? (note: the Author pays lip service to the thread with that last one)
 
 
Magister Lewdi
22:24 / 28.04.04
velvetvandle said the "three dimension" word.

Very true, VV. In our world, Time, Place, and People are the three important variables. I first heard about that from the late Afghan funnyman, Idries Shah, and have not noticed it to be wrong.

As for racism, you do understand that's a word of fairly recent manufacture (check old dictionaries), don't you? In the not so distant past, people of most cultures had no such concept, just as a fish probably has no concept of water. To have even suggested that such a term was needed as a label for anathematization would have caused a puzzled look.

Personally, I'm told I'm a racist and that I cannot help but be one, because of my skin color and my heritage. Who am I to argue with the all-knowing? Besides, if all cultures are equally deserving of respect, it tends to imply that cultures are expected to be different (else no such scolding would be necessary). Often very different! Viva la difference, in many cases (lock and load in others :-) The important thing is... cultural behavior arises from custom, which is caused by the behavior of the "Old Ones" who have passed down their behavior and custom, usually as a form of Common Law. Different cultures have different forms of customary behavior and law, which tend to arise from their genetic inheritance (if you believe in all that genetics stuff -- I'm not sure how much I do believe in it, but I sure notice some awful strange "coincidences"). Should we force fit all into one, or one into all? No!

Some cultures value what we call "freedom, independence, and self-sufficiency." In other cultures, to force someone to live under those conditions would be seen as extremely inhumane and cruel, even worse than a death sentence. Destroying cultures is not a good thing, whether it be hill tribes of S. East Asia, or honkees in Davenport, Iowa.

Libertarian sorts (of which I have been one), often forget that while we are certainly individuals, our collective existence is also very important because it was the communal context of our culture that allowed individualism to develop and thrive. Many other cultures, equally deserving of respect (etc.) would not have allowed that! Many actually killed the would-be individualists. Some still do.

As for stupidity... again there are three important things to consider.

1.) Stupidity (can't learn) is different from...
2.) Ignorance (has not learned), however...
3.) The willfully ignorant (have not learned and don't want to) eventually become stupid, as they lose the capacity for thought and learning. Duh!

Those who are allowed to persist in their folly (stupidity) oft become Wise, eh? Culling? Treat others with hospitality and respect, but should they attempt to stab you in the back once or twice, cull at will (or at least deport).

FYI another Magick Triad:

A wicked wytch asked a carpenter to remodel her kitchen.
The good man scratched his head for a while, then pushed the buttons on his pocket calculator and scribbled on his Palm Pilot.

"OK, lady," he finally said.
"Cheap, Good, Fast. You can have any two."

By the way, I've recently hit upon a break-through concept: YHWH as a Servitor, supported by energy defrauded from the unknowing and innocent.... fed by the negative energy of millions and millions of guilty masturbation orgasms and first sexual experience orgasms... and fluffed up even bigger still by all the HUMAN SACRIFICE performed in his name. This has inflated him from a two-bit dirt-spirit into somethink very akin to SATAN (tm). In fact, YHWH and SATAN (tm) can only be one and the same, as anyone who has read the Hateful book of Joshua will attest. I wonder if I should start a thread about this, or would certain interests have me booted out of the Forum?

Of course YHVH has THREE evil sides, one of which begins with a J, one of which begins with a C, and one of which begins with the letter I. Coincidence? You tell me!

Why am I here? Ah! Finally you ask!
I am here to suggest something "better than politics..." something with a real potential to Save Our Planet (SAP). Will people willingly embrace such a thing? Or will they need to be tricked or bribed into it.

All the beast,
Magister Lewdi

"A soul was saved today, in the name of Mystress Tina Mosupre."
 
 
penitentvandal
17:16 / 29.04.04
Um...Well, on the subject of racism, I read the best line I've read on the subject in the Times the other day (Christ, 'I read this in the Times, you know', I can feel the moustache growing even as I speak...), a quote from Martin Amis, to the extent that all white people are racist, but that we are less racist than our parents, and if things turn out right our kids will be less racist than us, and so on. Which makes a certain amount of sense to me.

As to why I posited a comparison between racism and culling the stupid, it was a clumsy attempt to say something like 'while I do not posess prejudice x I do posess prejudice y', if you see what I mean. Black guys, Asians, Chinese fellas; I try not to discriminate against them. Stupid people I do discriminate against, because I just think there's too bloody many of them. And I actually do work to try and enlighten the stupid in my job, it's just the continuous banging of head against wall that this entails sometimes makes me long for the opportunity to just wade in and start a'cullin'.

I do think you have a point that people who start stupid and educate themselves are not worthy of a cull, so I'll modify my ideas: people who are stupid andlazy. They're the people I want culled.

And anyway, I only really want to cull them sometimes...

Hmmm. What kind of dictator would I be?

Day One: 'Wipe them out! Wipe them all out! Exterminate the brutes!'
Day Two: 'No, don't wipe them out! Show them love, my children! Show them love!'
Day Three: 'Oh, bugger showing them love, it's no fun. Back to the wiping-out. Double-quick!'

There is a reason I have not yet achieved political and economic power.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:49 / 30.04.04
Back onto the subject of right-wing occultists - in the late 80's, a front-org for the BNP (British Nationalist Party) tried to 'reach out' to pagans in Yorkshire with a mailout from "the Brotherhood of Albion". The message was basically that Muslims & Hindus (i.e. foreigners) are legally recognised and have their own places of worship so why shouldn't pagans?

Perhaps a more 'sinister' example of right-wing politics and occultism coming together is the satanic O.N.A (order of Nine Angles) founded by David Myatt. Myatt's background is examined in Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity. Myatt was a member of the right-wing British Movement and later went on to found his own National Democratic Freedom Movement, issuing "British News - "The Newspaper of White Power". According to Goodrick-Clarke, he took over the ONA in 1976. Myatt has also been associated with other ultra-right groups such as the League of St. George and Combat 18, and apparently once went by the sobriquet "Cat Strangler".
UK 'lithers may recall the guy convicted for the nail-bombings in London - David Copeland. Copeland was a member of the Nationalist Socialist Movement - another right-wing org associated with Myatt, and Myatt himself was questioned by Jeremy Paxman outside his house about Copeland's links to him. Needless to say, he declined the opportunity to comment. As well as writing numerous articles in the occult press about the ONA, satanism, etc., the text A Practical Guide to The Strategy and Tactics of Revolution has also been attributed to him.

There is a David Myatt F.A.Q at Stormfront White Nationalist Community which maintains that Myatt has denied any links with the ONA. Must have been some other "David Myatt" who contributed articles about the ONA to a variety of UK occult journals throughout the 1980's then?
 
 
johannes
09:42 / 01.05.04
No wonder i've never felt comfortable addressing the deity as YHVH when praying...
It always struck me as limited & limiting, & now my suspicion that it's something even more sinister is acknowledged by another soul.
Thanks for the re-illumination.

i am connected to the Source of the Universe & i really don't need a cultural-specific & historically bound label.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
13:13 / 01.05.04
I think I missed something - can you elaborate on the YHVY-SATAN connection? Re: your posting, that is, not in the traditional "Adversary" way...
 
 
Charlie's Horse
02:14 / 02.05.04
Good points, velvetvandal and Magister Lewdi. As far as culling the "stupid and lazy," I hope you've both read up on your Scott Adams - the Dilbert Cartoonist. He's a libertarian, and one book, The Dilbert Future, has a few chaos magick techniques in the last chapter - essentially gives away his sigilization and astral working techniques (visualizations, writing down the concrete desire in sentence form a certain number of times). The rest of the book is hilarious; no shortage of idiots to laugh at. Adams probably agrees with you, velvetvandal, but he figures that the stupid people (or 'induhviduals') will either cull themselves out or destroy the planet.

One thing, though:
"I am here to suggest something "better than politics..." something with a real potential to Save Our Planet (SAP). Will people willingly embrace such a thing? Or will they need to be tricked or bribed into it." Magister Lewdi

What, when, where, and how much will it cost??
Seriously, though - what's yer plan? And if we make it popular through regular channels (politics/advertisements) then what's the difference between willingly embracing and being tricked or bribed? Isn't gaining something great a kind of society-wide bribe? As far as dualities go, I don't see how those are polar opposites (of course, lately I've been on a 'deconstruct every duality into an infinite union' kick, so it might just be me).

Speaking of dualities - "this multi-racial society is the racial genocide of our once proud, warrior, Aryan race." - from the eedjit at David Myatt's site.

Talk about the creation of a duality. These guys, the members of a so-called 'Aryan race' - which by genetic experimentation CANNOT be 'pure' in the large majority of cases - construct the Evil Empire out of a society attempting more inclusion. Indeed, the very act of cultural or racial inclusion marks one as an enemy, as does the differentiation of race and culture. By egalitarian standards, this belief enforces insane behavior - pointless 'us-v-them' conflict along lines the 'us' group alone holds to have validity.

This guy - Myatt - experimented with all sorts of religions that decry his core beliefs. Islam? Christianity? Taoism? Buddhism? Was he actually paying attention to the tenents, or was this like exchanging a Starbucks name tag for a WalMart name tag? The name remains the same, unfortunately.

Oh, and also worthy of note - by writing this text I've slandered the name of David Myatt (or pointed out how he's slandered it himself), I fall under his mission statement to "challenge to a duel any person who creates, or who spreads, dishonourable rumours and accusations against" that ass. Great. 'Dissenters will be shot' and all that - like a personal USA Patriot Act.

What's interesting is that his site denies any affiliation with Satanism - perhaps a reaction to enrobing in the Islamic fictionsuit? That religion isn't exactly down with the Devil.

Compared to this, how conservative can Wiccans possibly get? Or did I miss that note about Myatt among the other brand-name religions?
 
 
SteppersFan
15:30 / 04.05.04
Most pagans are obviously from a left / green perspective though not all. I don't know where the idea that most are politically conservative come from. Maybe it's the moderate Tory-ism of Gardner and his cronies, which is scarcely representative these last few decades.

Personally, it seems to me that if you're on a spiritual journey that involves magick, then one of the things you're going to become aware of on that journey is the inequalities and iniquities of this world.

Then again, maybe some people do magick so they can get their thumb wedged so far up their ass they don't have to pay attention to what's happening next door. ;-)
 
 
penitentvandal
21:14 / 04.05.04
Well, definitely. Though I find it takes more than my thumb to reach my prostate gland...Jesus Christ, how big must your hands be? ;-)

I find the Nazi magician thing quite amusing really.

'Hey, how can we obtain the political clout necessary to force our sneaky fascist way into Downing Street, Dave?'

'Well, 'owzabout this: let's write letters to all the Pagans and get them to join us. I know they're all hippies, really, but once we explain the advantages of racim they'll surely see our point. And, you know, there's millions of 'em. I reckon if we convinced even, ooh, let's say thirty percent of that massive pagan voting bloc to go our way, we'd be having Tennants and kebabs at Number Ten in a week. Yeah.'

'I dunno Dave. Isn't paganism kind of a minority religion?'

'Nah. Nuh-uh. Millions, mate. I'm tellin' yer.'

Sadly the BNP have decided to abandon this policy in recent years for a far more successful scheme of playing on charvas and middle class old folk and their shared fear of asylum seekers. The tossers.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:15 / 04.05.04
That should be 'advantages of racism' there, obviously. I mean, obviously the BNP aren't trying to explain to pagans the advantages of Rakim. That would be crazy.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:10 / 09.05.04
Commies for Christ

My tag's Tall Tim
(no need to shout)
I said that's my name
(so don't wear it out)
You see me here, I'm running hot
I'm a juicy hamburger 'cos I got the lot
I got a bone the size of a Tyrannosaurus Rex
Only one thing, I want your sex
My name is Tricky Ricky, if the situation's sticky
Then I'm your man, I got a plan
I used to be a brickie
I don't give a damn about what you say
And if you don't like that you'd better walk this way
(Rock it Tricky Ricky, gonna rock it to the left
Rock it Tricky Ricky, gonna rock it to the right)
My name is Paul, I'm the best of all
'Cos I'm in your face like a can of mace
(bullshit!)
I'm a groove lick, love child, king of the verse
You mess with me boy, you leave in a hearse
Your God is a nothing God
Is a mealy mouthed God
Is a weak arsed God
My God is a really tough God
Is a straight line God
Is a good ole boy
Your God drinks peach nectar
Eats boiled fruit
Can't fart out loud
My God arm wrestled Khruschev
Eats meat, farts with pride
Hey, Hey
Commies for Christ
Hammers and sickles and the word's not flesh - it's steel
Commies for Christ
'Cos he's the man that carved the lamb - and made us feel
Commies for Christ
I'm having a sexual fling with a red under my bed
Commies for Christ
Drank too much altar wine, it's gone straight to my head
Take Marx, take Christ, take drugs
Take Marx, take Christ, take dr dr dr dr dr drugs
My God is a vengeful God
Is Cecil B. de Mille
He kills for the fun of it
(Rep rep repetition, rep rep repetition, yo, yo)
Your God been around for too long
Can't get down, is an aging hippy
(Hippy, hippy, skippy, skippy)
(Tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch, tch)
God, Hey
Commies for Christ
Go get some long knives to carve up these loaves and fishes
Commies for Christ
Support the cause or else someone could get vicious
Commies for Christ
'Cos he's the word you've heard - The truth, the light, the way
My God ain't risen, 'cos he's sleepin' in today
Take Marx, take Christ, take drugs
Take Marx, take Christ, take drugs
Commies for C C C CC CCC Coca Cola
Amen
 
  
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