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Bigot Ron resigns after racist jibe is broadcast

07:09 / 22.04.04

Atkinson quits as ITV pundit after racist jibe is broadcast

ITV pundit and former Manchester United & Coventry City manager 'Big' Ron Atkinson has resigned after he called Marcel Desailly, Chelsea's black French defender 'a fucking lazy nigger' following his commentary of the Chelsea Monaco game for ITV.

Although the comment was not broadcast on ITV's feed in the UK, it was broadcast on Arabian Radio and Television (ART) as they were using ITV's commentary for the game and their feed was still active.

Ron is said to have resigned immediately and his resignation was immediately accepted by his bosses at ITV Sport.

Did Ron's comment necessitate his resignation?

Does Ron's defence - that he was one of the first football managers to give black players a chance - hold up in any way?

What wider implications beyond Ron's career in punditry could this have on the game and for example the Kick Racism out of Football campaign?

How likely is it that Ron's bosses seized this opportunity to off-load Ron as ITV are losing most of their football coverage next season and his contract would have been mostly redundant anyway?

11:05 / 22.04.04

Did Ron's comment necessitate his resignation?

no, but it's being viewed by ART did. ITV will make more money through selling to other networks than making stuff for the home market, i reckon. he was probably told there was no way he would be able to stay after it being public like that, in a similar vein to kilroy and the BBC. the BBC still pays kilroy through his prodution company, just not as on screen talent. it is possible that 'big ron' is in a similar position.

13:23 / 22.04.04

Hmm, it doesn't look like Ron is gonna walk away from this any time soon.

Now Atkinson loses Guardian job

Its not the first time Ron has been involved in an on air faux pas either. This almost identical instance was less serious but I understand that he was suspended at the time then quietly reinstated.

Big Ron left one sandwich short of a TV dinner

Ron's 'slip of the tongue' whilst he was allegedly 'muttering to himself' as he watched back highlights from the game has cost him dearly. Not only has his reputation as a manager who helped pave the way for the introduction and acceptance of black players into football been lost, but he has seemingly killed his career stone dead.

Seen in isolation Ron's comment was disgraceful, but I don't feel able to judge him on the basis of one comment which he supposedly made to himself. Can one outburst make you a racist?

14:52 / 22.04.04

It seems to me if he did play such a role in introducing black players into the game as the articles suggest that this was the kind of casual racism that older members of society often expouse, while not actively letting it affect their actions. When I first lived in Scotland I was shocked at the casual use of racist terms, for example referring to the local chinese restaurant as a "chinky's" or referring to the corner shop as a "paki" shop. Did this casual use of racist terms mean my Scots friends were more racist than people in London? I doubt it. Does this make their use of such words acceptable? No.
Another thing to debate is would there have been such an outcry if he's referred to an italian player as a "lazy wop"? I doubt it.
I will hasten to add that I am in no way excusing Ron Atkinsons actions, and I feel that such behaviour is completely unacceptable, but I don't feel that it necessarily means Ron Atkinson is some kind of hate-mongering neo-nazi. I'm just trying to avoid too extreme a reaction to what, though unacceptable, could have merely been an old man letting off some steam after a team he favoured lost.

15:06 / 22.04.04

I know it isn't much of a defense for him, but he didn't say he was lazy because he was a 'nigger' or that he dislikes this person because of his race. He used it as a descriptor. I see it the say as if he had said 'Lazy cunt.' Ya it's offensive, but being angry at someone doesn't mean you hate everyone of his race. Nigger was just the first nasty word that he thought of. (granted, this could point to inner/repressed rascism, but that's a different forum) This isn't phrased that well, but you get my point.

15:20 / 22.04.04

I don't really buy that kind of stuff to be honest - I mean it's not that it's unclear that people view the use of "Nigger" as being inherently racist. If you ignore that kind of thing then basically it's because you're either not concerned about being considered racist or you are racist. I couldn't comment on which is appropriate in this case.

Whale... Whale... Fish!

17:16 / 22.04.04

It was just an outburst and the emphasis seemed to be on "fucking lazy" (which I kind of agree with as the words hard-working and Marcel Desailly can rarely be said in the same sentence) but he is a TV pundit and it is unacceptable language and he's done the right thing by resigning.

(my, my this fence is comfy)

18:03 / 22.04.04

He was right in resigning for using foul language. What isn't right is saying he resigned for saying rascist things. If it was a female athlete, and he said "fucking lazy bitch", would he have resigned for being sexist?

19:37 / 22.04.04

So cursing is worse than making racist comments?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:20 / 22.04.04

I must admit, I hadn't really considered the generational "casual" racism thing (although you'd think the old bugger's had YEARS to catch up). My initial reaction was to wonder how the fuck something like that "just slips out" if it's not a word you commonly use.

22:52 / 22.04.04

Something that just came to mind - he obviously thought it was acceptable to say that in the place he was in, and he wasn't the only person in the room. Does this mean "nigger" is acceptable language in sports journalism, as long as it's not made public?

22:55 / 22.04.04

So cursing is worse than making racist comments?

Let me clarify my position a smidge more with ideas kinda thrown together in no particular structure, because I'm too tired to be bothered with the English language.

Rascism is a terrible thing, however I don't think rascism is the issue here. Considering Ron's history of being one of the first managers to give black players a chance, I think it is unfair to label him a bigot based on one angry remark. The way I see it, the issue at hand is he used foul language during a broadcast. That's how it should be thought of too: "Ron resigned for saying nasty words on air" instead of "Ron resigned because the world has discovered he's secretly a rascist".
Basically, yes he screwed up; yes he shouldn't have said that; yes he was right to resign, BUT letting the word 'nigger' pass from your lips while pissed off does not make you a rascist who's only desire in life is to kill black people. It's not like he yelled "I hate all the niggers!" or "All black men are lazy niggers!" or anything like that.

00:35 / 23.04.04

letting the word 'nigger' pass from your lips while pissed off does not make you a rascist who's only desire in life is to kill black people.

It most certainly does make you racist. Casual, maybe, but since when was that a decent excuse? It'd have been a different matter if he'd have said "fucking lazy idiot," or something similar, but the fact is that what marked the player out for Atkinson wasn't just his ineptitude, but also his race.

I can't believe this needs to be explained.

Something that just came to mind - he obviously thought it was acceptable to say that in the place he was in, and he wasn't the only person in the room. Does this mean "nigger" is acceptable language in sports journalism, as long as it's not made public?

For what it's worth, the others in the studio apparently didn't hear him say it.

02:05 / 23.04.04

Well, it doesn't necessarily make him racist... he could be

- someone who, somehow, doesn't realise that the word is generally associated with racists, despite him being a professional media type and, you know, alive

- someone who's bucking the PC trend and protesting against stereotypes by using language generally associated with racists in a daring iconoclastic way! Yeah! Challenge that pro-black bias!

- hopelessly crippled by the use of language that was common when he was younger, despite being a professional journalist and using language as an everyday tool, and unable to restrain himself from coming out with these things in times of emotional turmoil

I'm not really convincing myself here.

(As an aside, I have heard my mother use the word "nigger" and I am pretty sure she is not racist. Don't you call my mum a racist. She is not a journalist, and was brought up in white South Africa, but it's always given me pause.)

05:06 / 23.04.04

Meanwhile at the Daily Express...

Richard Desmond, the proprietor of the Daily Express, launched an extraordinary tirade against the Germans yesterday when he accused them all of being Nazis as he goosestepped around a boardroom to the astonishment of fellow newspaper executives

In a mock German accent, Mr Desmond asked if the Telegraph bosses were looking forward to being run by Nazis. "That's not very helpful," Mr Deedes said, pointing out that Axel Springer had a commitment to the state of Israel as part of its stated publishing philosophy. Mr Desmond said: "They're all Nazis." Mr Deedes replied: "That is thoroughly offensive. Could you please sit down so we can start the meeting?"

Mr Desmond replied "Don't you tell me to sit down, you miserable little piece of shit" and then launched into what witnesses described as "a stream of foul-mouthed abuse, both personal and general"....

...The Telegraph executives decided to abandon the meeting. At this point the Express directors - managing director Martin Ellice, finance director Rob Sanderson and publishing manager Chris Haslum - were told to sing Deutschland über Alles.

05:38 / 23.04.04

It'd have been a different matter if he'd have said "fucking lazy idiot," or something similar, but the fact is that what marked the player out for Atkinson wasn't just his ineptitude, but also his race.

i'm not sure it is 'the fact'.
what marked him out was his laziness. if you called your son lazy child, would you necessarily be making a point about his childishness?
i'm not defending his use of such terminology, but i am saying i dont think he was in any way referencing any ideas about the inferiority of black people.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:54 / 23.04.04

Not deliberately, no... I don't really think he's a candidate for BNP-dom...

... but it's like swearing in front of your mum (I mean accidentally, not when angry). If it's not something you're used to doing as a matter of course, it's not gonna be a problem. Which leads me to wonder why the word "nigger" is a word so handy in his vocabulary that it could slip out when he wasn't watching.

Oh, and the Desmond thing... this one's got serious legs. The Mail (of course) have really picked up on it... which means that any second now it's gonna be open season on the Mail's classic journalism of yore... the praising of Mr Hitler's economic miracle... the whole "hurrah for the blackshirts" thing...

Don't you just love watching two utterly hateable combatants tear each other to pieces?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

09:12 / 23.04.04

I don't think the Daily Mail will make a huge fuss out of this, because they know that Desmond knows where their metaphorical bodies are burried. They haven't gone after him that much despite him being an obvious target for their 'this man is destroying the fabric of society' rants because he's got the proof of their proprieters love children ...

21:20 / 23.04.04

There is a part of this that is almost funny, that grown men are actually doing this. Then the realization hits that GROWN MEN ARE DOING THIS. WITHOUT A TRACE OF IRONY. Richard Desmond, the 53 year old owner of the Daily Express asked Jeremy Deedes the 60 year old CEO of the Telegraph, a newspaper Desmond could not afford to buy, "do you want to come outside and sort it out then?" And if you are under any illusion that 'going outside' might be a euphemism for coming to a gentleman's agreement it is probably worth noting that moment earlier Desmond calld Mr Deedes a "miserable little piece of shit".

22:18 / 23.04.04

I can't honestly believe we're having a discussion in which the argument is about whether or not it's racist to call someone a nigger! I mean - for god's sake - this is pretty elementary stuff! It's not descriptive to call someone a nigger! It's fucking racist! Now that's not to say that he's pro-segregation or wants to bring back slavery and I'm not planning to condemn him for all time for what looks like the behaviour of a thoughtless dick-head, but as a statement it's still bloody obviously racist! And yes - calling a woman a lazy bitch would be sexist too, and the only environments in which it would be OK are where there was an understanding, tacit or otherwise, that when you said it, it was in jest. It astonishes me that we're having such trouble with this.

23:32 / 23.04.04

I've lost sight of the need to take this seriously so I am providing this link to Ron's latest PR coup.

The sad fact is I could really imagine him doing this now:

Please don't click the link if you are of a sensitive disposition. Or if you read the Guardian :-)

Ron attempts to win the battle for hearts and minds

02:41 / 24.04.04

It's not descriptive to call someone a nigger! It's fucking racist!

funny, i thought it was both.
why does the racism of the word stop it from being descriptive?
its always going to be used to describe a black person, isnt it? so in that regard it does describe, albeit in an offensive way.

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:13 / 24.04.04

okay, another go. It's descriptive, as unless qualified (eg by the word 'white', thankyou Ms.Smith) it's assumed to refer to a black/afro-caribbean person, but unless context is very specific(eg wrt reclamation/peer identity), the racist derogation is fundamental to the descriptive power.

It attempts to dehumanise and reduce black people to the status they 'enjoyed' under slavery, when it was coined.

It's fucking racist, ok?

And on Big Ron... Tough shit. He's a public figure, with a public profile, and it's not acceptable to condone racist language in the public arena...

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the world of sports journalism wasn't the most, er, evolved, working environment. Amy Lawrence, football writer for the Observer, is eloquent on this.

18:28 / 24.04.04

It's racist. Ok?

are you talking to me?

because

i thought it was both

remember?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

06:45 / 25.04.04

'What I said was racist - but I'm not a racist. I am an idiot'.

I feel there's a need for Ron to work out for himself why he said what he said, but I tend towards agreeing with his judgement on himself based on what we're told about his record in this article. A time in the wilderness and then I think he should be allowed back in.

09:19 / 25.04.04

Yes I think that's a fair articulation of the situation. And with regards to toksik - how are you distinguishing between the parts of that word that are descriptive and those that are racist? That's not a distinction I was trying to make - racist sentiments are descriptive after all - they're just also offensive discriminatory lies. What I was trying to articulate was the distinction between a word that is purely (or even just usefully) descriptive and one that is obviously - obviously - racist. I probably should have phrased my statement more like "nigger is not simply descriptive, it's a fundamentally racist word".

Anyway - I'm getting off the point. You said that the concentration was on the lazy and the nigger was simply descriptive, and then subsequently you've said that it's also racist as well as descriptive - so where are we disagreeing?

11:20 / 25.04.04

Not scrictly on topic i know, but I love this thread's summary - it captures wonderfully the way Big ron regulalry tortures language.

13:26 / 25.04.04

i dont think we were disagreeing at any point.
i was disagreeing with the notion that ron was suggesting 'blackness' was a part of his problem with desailly's playing.

13:30 / 25.04.04

sorry, i dont think we were disagreeing... any more. i did at first, as i thought you were saying it couldnt be a descriptor. which was wierd and, it turns out, not the case.

13:18 / 01.05.04

Did Atko not accuse Cameroon's Benjamin Massing of possessing 'no brain', and then proceed into a little diatribe about 'his [Massing's] mum, up a tree' during halftime, which was heard by - I think - Canadian viewers, during the 1990 World Cup?

If so, fuck him.

'Paki'/'Chinky' - not necessarily outright racist terminology.