BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


What I hate most-people...anyone else feel this way

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Skit
11:41 / 20.04.04
Ok, I know as I am human I shouldn't hate them, but I do, what we do to the planet makes me sick, the way we think we can control everything, that we see are selves as so great when we are just animals. Where ever I look I see human influence, even the countryside, everything is aranged into fields, neatly cropped bushes etc. Why do we have to control everything, plants should be able to grow naturally. Seeing road construction makes me feel so angry, as does anything which alters how Earth should be naturally. I want to scream sometimes, and have nightmares,
about there being ony people on the world, in which the world is poluted and thre are not open wild space, it is all controlled like some massive factory. I know this sounds evil but I think, I know, the world would be better of without people, even the nice onces still contribute to polution etc. To conclude I agree completly with agent Smith is the first Matrix, humans aren't mammals, they are a virus.
 
 
The Strobe
12:04 / 20.04.04
Well, let's start by correcting that first sentence. You've acknowledged yourself as human too, so maybe "I know as I am human I shouldn't hate us" is more accurate, and indicates more accurately that we're about to disappear into hypocrisy.

Your point seems to me to be one of anarchy; the human influence that you're horrified by - bar the obvious things such as pollution - is that of order. We impose order onto chaos. It's how you create things like society. And civilisation. And laws. And things. It's also why we trim hedges. Because whilst it may look more manufactured, it's also more practical. Besides, trimming plants often helps their growth - and stops them falling prey to gravity.

Anyhow.

It doesn't sound "evil"; it sounds depressed. The only solution you can see to the nightmares you have is the entire eradication of the human race. Which is pretty extreme. Are you similarly negative about yourself as you are about the rest of us? We are, in many ways, superior to other animals. We're still just an animal - but we've learned to shape our own destiny in ways others haven't. You may argue we're doing things we were never meant to do - flying, for instance - but I'd argue that's overcoming natural boundaries with ingenuity.

You seem to believe humanity shouldn't dream of expansion, of progress, of bettering itself. That's a shame. Aspiration is what led us to where we were. Sometimes it goes wrong, sometimes we make mistakes in the learning process, sure - but does that mean it's not worth trying any of it?

I'd again say that despite the mistakes, as long as we learn from them, it's still worth it. You'd argue no, from what you've said, so all I can conclude is that you have a terribly negative outlook on life. What led you to this conclusion? This isn't something that you've decided upon in an instant, I can see. Sorry to ask so many questions - it's just whilst I can explain my point of view, and how it's different to yours, I'm fascinated as to how you came to these ideas.
 
 
SMS
15:16 / 20.04.04
Started this to see if i am the only person who hates humans, the way they see themselves as soo supreme, and that they think they have the right to control anbd manipulate nature...what right!?!?

I think this thread is inappropriate for the Head Shop and should be moved over to the Conversation.

Alternatively, we could ask this: what, if anything, grounds humanity's right to control and manipulate non-human nature? If no such ground exists, does this have any implications? Is there something unique to humanity that makes our manipulation of nature morally different from other creature's manipulation of nature? The virus was mentioned. We could mention the beaver, or we could mention animals that, because of their surrounding conditions, suddenly have access to regions that were previously isolated. It seems to me that every creature has a significant impact on its environment, so, perhaps it is the degree to which humanity impacts our environment that makes them morally culpable, but it could also be the manner in which we affect the environment. Another possibility is that, what makes humanity unique is our faculty of reason.
 
 
zee
15:31 / 20.04.04
Even if animals did exert such a degree of influence as we do, would they even be morally culpable? Not being capable of reasoned, rational decisions, and in turn presumably moral considerations, surely questions of morality wouldn't be at issue if it weren't humans under the spotlight here. If it were any other species in control, and we were the underdogs, and yet still remained the primary race on the planet with the capacity for reason and moral thinking, what would the implications be?
 
 
Skit
07:21 / 21.04.04
Yes, I have felt this way for a very long time, but no I do not have a depressed outlook on life. This is because I believe that there is still hope that humankind can learn what it is doing wrong, and right those wrongs. It is mere chance that we evolved to be the intelligent species on the planet, we could well have been the underdogs, or we might not have existed at all. If we hadn't existed would another species be like us, doing all the harm we do?! Also I do not beleive in calling humans superior to animals just because they are smarter, would we say we are superior to people who aren't as clever as us. Animals do not choose to be animals, neither did we choose to be human. We all live on the same planet, we breath the same air...animals have as much right to these privilages as we do and I count all animals as equal, however clever they are (that includes bugs). I try my best to look after wildlife, and domestic life. Some people might say that it is cruel to keep pets, they might view it as slavery of animals. However I know my Golden retreiver Willow wouldn't last long in the wild, as being bred in captivity has got rid of any survival instinct she should have. Also we enjoy each others company, I often call her my dog-sister as I believe we are equals and can both learn from each other. Finally as to do i hate myself then, there are two answers to this question, one: yes, i hate what I am, and two: I dont hate who I am, and i beleive that perhaps if I try I can live with what I am, by trying to change the world for the better, and that doesn't just mean humans. (hope you understand)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:03 / 21.04.04
You gotta love the fact that this exchange is taking place on computers over an advanced telecommunications network spanning continents and utilising geo-stationary orbiting telecomms satellites...

For some reason I am reminded of Anti-Globalization protesters in Nike sneakers, smoking Marlboro Lights, listening to Sony Walkmans and bemoaning the onward march of capitalism.
 
 
No star here laces
08:30 / 21.04.04
Dude, wearing Nikes means you can march for longer; Marlboro's help sell the message of anti-capitalism by giving protesters an air of rebellious cool; and anarcho-punk sounds so much more clear and precise on a state of the art Sony. What's to hate?

People can be a pain in the ass, but they don't look as gross as cockroaches and produced more great art than donkeys, so in general they're still my favourite species....
 
 
mattydontlikeit
08:31 / 21.04.04
Fuck it. We are human. We post on message boards. We eat and fuck and kill and we are the masters of the planet, for good or ill. We are stupid when we should be thoughtful, and we are creative when we should leave well enough alone. Welcome to the world of the Shaven Ape. Revel in your place on the food chain. Own your property, despoil your surroundings, and leave a syphilitic drunken corpse behind to mark your time on this beautiful blue planet which we as humans do not deserve. The ride will come to an end, and when it does you will have only your brother apes to blame. So mote it be. Bwahahahahahahahahahaaa.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:44 / 21.04.04
Out of interest, Skit, you claim to be 'trying to change the world for the better'....could you unpack the term 'better', and perhaps briefly summarise what qualifies you to 'change the world'?
 
 
Skit
11:08 / 21.04.04
OK, I am using the internet as it is easy to comunicate with a great number of people this way.
Everyone is entitiled to try and change the world, but I wouldn't if it was going to cause harm. If no one had the right to change the world, we wouldn't have charities, and we wouldn't have anything that can lead to new discovers, concepts or beleifs. If that was so I think we should say au revoir to Barbelith now!!!
 
 
Skit
11:10 / 21.04.04
Oh and I shall keep the better (thankyou) I have no intention of changing the world for the worse!
 
 
Keri
11:41 / 21.04.04
I do agree with a lot of what you say Skit. Us humans are destroying our world, and within the last century the technological advances have been greater than at any other time. The urge for power and control has devasted our earth and many of the species in it. We can now kill our enemy without even seeing him. Man's arrogance and egotism is extraordinary. All I can see as an answer is to have compassion, and to grow that, even in the face of destruction.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:52 / 21.04.04
Just as a quick thought: what makes you say that humanity's manipulation of nature is unnatural (c.f. Skit's opening example of managed farmland)? It is well known that some bird and animal species can use objects as tool; and it seems to be part of man's 'nature' to develop tools, and to utilise his habitat in various ways in order to have a better chance of survival (given that human beings have very limited inbuilt tools of self-defence such as claws, poisonous spit, etc.). At what point does this process of development stop being 'natural' to humanity? At the hunter-gatherer stage? At the nomadic herder stage? At the subsistence agriculture stage? At the enclosure stage? At the agribusiness stage? When, and why, is it unnatural for human beings to manipulate their environments?

(N.B. I am not saying that it is impossible that man's control over the environment and the processes of nature cannot be detrimental to the planet/other species/humanity, because it is blatantly obvious that it can; I just want to query the idea of something being 'unnatural' or 'natural', as I don't think these are absolutes and it might be worth recognising that for the purposes of this discussion)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:03 / 21.04.04
But isn't it rather hypocritical to complain about that on an internet bulletin board, powered by electricity created either by nuclear power or the burning of irreplaceable fossil fuels, wearing clothes created by chemicals, on machines powered by... while you yourselves are sustained by a mix of other animals bred to feed you and/or crops that if not for being harvested to feed you could have feed dozens of other animals.

Every species parasitises another. Even the animals do it and it's rosy-glassed idealism that ignores this. We're just more efficient at doing it than most other species, but we have nothing on the viruses and cancer cells.
 
 
Axolotl
12:46 / 21.04.04
This seems to be rather an ill thought out argument, if as Skit states in hir first post "we are just animals" then our actions are just as natural as those of other more "natural" species, and therefore by hir reasoning is ok. I mean our farming is no different to leaf cutter ants and their cultivation of fungi, only different in scale and impact.
Appeals to return to the Earth to how it should be "naturally" are also null in content. There is no natural state to earth, it is in a state of constant flux, with the climate and the number and type of species constantly changing. There is a constant struggle between different species to survive. We just happen to be the most bad ass species around at the moment (this is subject to change without notice btw).
It is only because we are human with the capacity for self-awareness that enables us to think about such concepts and debate about whether our actions can be considered morally justified (morals being another one of our peculiar inventions). Our actions can only be considered unnatural due to humanities creation of the this divide between us and the rest of the world.
That isn't the best structured argument in the world, as I am at work and can't stop to look up references, but I hope it gets my points across.
 
 
Keri
14:48 / 21.04.04
I read Straw Dogs recently, by John Gray which touched on a lot of the issues here.Anyone else read it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:28 / 21.04.04
Siobhan - try here.

I'm not sure that this thread is likely to pull itself up to a Head Shop thread; since there have been some good and interesting posts in it, however, I would suggest leaving it here for a while, while asking people to respect its status as a Revolution thread and try to be thoughtful and comprehensible in their posts to it, and deleting the chaff. If it doesn't work out, we can move it to the Conversation.
 
 
Skit
08:13 / 22.04.04
Sorry if this is hypocritical, above you can find reasons as to why I use the internet. I am wearing clothes as 1) I dont want to freeze and 2) People might think I'm a little bit odd if I wandered around stark naked! I am veggie and may become vegan but everything has to eat! Yes I agree animals do manipulate their environment but what the use is natural and does not cause wide scale harm. Perhaps people became unatural when they started causing harm that cant be reversed/ is very hard to reverse. Take an example, carnivorous animals kill for food but they kill the weak and the sick thereby letting the healthier ones live and breed, this way both predator and prey stay in balance. Humans have forgotten this balance, instead they farm millions of animals, usually in appaling factory conditions, feed them what they wouldn't usually eat, and then kill basically all of them, in seriously in humane ways, this can hardly be called natural.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:47 / 22.04.04
So what, would it be better if we did it like animals, just capture food as we need it and, in the cases of prey as large as or larger than ourselves, beat it enough to stop it fighting back and then start eating it while it's still alive? The main flaw I see in what you're saying is that your mythologising the natural world as some beautiful eden when it's not the case. There's incest, murder, a form of politics in some gorilla clans and nature 'red in tooth and claw' Carnivorous animals don't just eat the sick and aged, they eat whoever isn't able to get away, which might be an animal that is having a bad day. Cheetahs don't take census of their prey and come to a gentlemen's agreement about who they are going to chase.

And 'use is natural', natural in this case is a very loaded word. If elephants had human levels of intelligence, might they not consider changing the world around them to make it better for them and all elephant-kind? If we'd forgotten the balance, whatever that is supposed to mean, we'd have used up all the sheep, cattle and chickens years ago. But instead we breed them, to make sure we have sustainable livestock. You might not agree with that, and God knows the farmers made a lot of problems for themselves by feeding dead cattle to herbivore species, but it's not necessarily unbalanced.

You can do your bit by being vegan, being self-sustaining where possible (there used to be a website that you filled in a questionaire and it told you how many resources yu were using with tips on how to cut down but I think it's gone now), but loving the animal world doesn't mean you therefore need to be a misanthrope.

Animal Man: I don't eat meat, I'm a vegetarian.
Swamp Thing: Oh really?
 
 
Skit
11:13 / 23.04.04
Ok, but you have to see that the way humans breed animals for there own consuption is not natural, generally animals do take weaker or sick animals as prey because they are the ones who cannot get away, or a more likely to be having a bad day, understand. Humans have forgotten the balance as they do not let animals breed naturally and they do not kill with that balance in mind, eg they kill a whole lot and then stat breeding again. Unfortuneatly there are too many of us to be able to do that and we have such insatiable greed but it is a pity that it has come to this.
 
 
Skit
11:14 / 23.04.04
Whats with Animal man and Swamp thing.
Obviously if your veggie you dont eat meat! 8)
 
 
Why?
15:19 / 23.04.04
I'm fairly cynical about humanity myself and find us to be miserably greedy beasts, but I have to agree that the argument here isn't holding up. I think we do need to know exactly what we're talking about as "natural." I think humans are animals, and as such our organization into civilized animals is a natural development of our particular matter, but I can see an argument opposing that...

You might say that animals affect their environments in an instinctual way and are thus not morally responsible, whereas humans stopped relying on instinct and allowed intellect to take over millenia ago. To take civilization as an example, the argument would go: if it were instinct that drove us to civilize ourselves, then we would not have made so many errors in its implementation (slavery being the prime example that comes to mind). The answer must be that ordering ourselves is a product of reason and not instinct. If one were to make this distinction, I think a case could be made for holding humanity morally responsible for the ways in which we effect our environment. However, one can not make the leap to say that reason itself is unnatural and anything produced by reason therefore evil. We are forced in this scenario to recognize ourselves as reasonable creatures in the here and now, and perhaps unfortunately, reason may be the only way solve the moral problem of our relationship with the planet.

Let's look at farm bred animals. It can be debated elsewhere whether humans started out as herbivores. I take it for fact that today we are omnivores. There are too many people in the world today for us to be able to go out and hunt the oldest and weakest animals for our consumption. If we did that, we really would destroy every species on the planet. Instead we've developed the alternative of breeding animals (and plants) specifically for consumption so that we don't have to go into the forest and kill all the wild beasts. I eat beef because the only reason cows exist is for me to eat them. You wouldn't find a modern day cow running around in the wild because it's been bred to be a consumed product. To not eat the cow would be to prevent it from fulfilling its destiny. Is breeding animals in such a way sacreligious, and have we done it at the expense of certain "natural" species? Probably, but I'd prefer this to even more mass extinction to fulfill our consumptive needs.

I often hear the argument from "veggies" that breeding animals just to be slaughtered is wrong, but is there really a difference between breeding cows and growing corn? It's all manipulation of the environment for our own gain, and I can't see the solution being that we stop eating and sustaining ourselves altogether. We're a part of this planet too, and the world would suffer an imbalance from our extinction just like it does fom the extinction of other species. Now I will admit that argument that we could be feeding starving people all over the world with the grain we give to our cattle holds some weight, so perhaps we should be looking into a new system of consumption.

It's not that we're superior to other species, and I don't believe we have a right to destroy them, but we do have a responsibility to sustain our own species, and reason is the tool we've been given to accomplish this. In some ways that makes us the weakest species because we can't instinctually fit in with our environment - we have to think about is and mess it up and learn from our mistakes and try again. I am glad you have optimism that things can change, Skit, because in order for it to change you're going to have to embrace being human and the particular capabilites that entails in order to enact that change.
 
 
Why?
18:52 / 23.04.04
Oh and as to the Animal Man/Swamp Thing...thing, I think the point is that Swamp Thing, who is made up of plant matter, is questioning whether not eating meat is a morally superior position since a vegetarian would seemingly have no problem eating Swamp Thing himself.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:17 / 24.04.04
OK, the problem I have here, Skit, is that (gulp, I'm gonna say it...here goes...Godwin at the ready...) Adolf Hitler wanted to change the world for 'the better', and set about his duty to mankind with what could be termed somewhat overzealous enthusiasm...

You state that everyone is entitled to try and change the world...I don't understand. Where does this 'entitlement' come from? In as much as you are a free agent making choices every second of your life, you are by definition changing the world with every breath you take, but I somehow doubt this is what you mean. Are you sure that your desire to change the world to suit you is not in conflict with the desires of others to keep the world just as it is, or change it ways directly opposed to those you favour?

It's a bit of a sticky mess this changing the world malarkey. Changing yourself tends to be a good starting point, several billion orders of magnitude easier than changing a world, and even so incredibly difficult and requiring constant, impeccable attention...are you up to the first step?

I'm not trying to be combative, here, just enquiring as to your motivations and awareness of the immediate issues involved.
 
 
Skit
08:07 / 26.04.04
To animal man and swamp thing, vegetables do not feel pain, so as long as you dont destroy their species it is alright to eat them. Animals do feel pain, and fear...
 
 
Skit
08:13 / 26.04.04
I am not Hitler, nor am I like him, I dont want everything to have blond hair and blue eyes. The way I would like to change things would be to get humans to apreciate, respect and live along side nature without destroying it. I would like to stop animal cruelty, and I am all for enviromentally friendly forms of energy, transport etc. I would also like to see humans treating animals as equals. I am not looking to wipe out the intire human species as this is drastic and horrid, and even if I was some kind of super villan I have neither the time nor the organisation for such things!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:01 / 26.04.04
Well, what are you trying to do then? Make your own contribution to raising environmental awareness? What are you doing about it? If this is about ecological awareness it might do better in the Switchboard.

I'm not criticising your intentions, which are probably laudable, it's just that what you're trying to do with this thread isn't particularly clear.

Unlike Flowers, I don't think you believe that nature is an Eden. I think your position could do with a little examination from a theoretical perspective, but perhaps that's not what you want - in which case, again, I suggest that this topic be moved to Switchboard or somewhere where more practical information and ideas could be exchanged.

(BTW you might like to reread Swamp Thing - unless I am misunderstanding your post, you seem to be unaware that Swamp Thing actually is a vegetable and much of the series deals with the suffering of the environment - a suffering which is experienced physically by Swamp Thing, IIRC)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:34 / 26.04.04
Why do you grant equal rights to animals but not to plants? Plants have been shown to feel pain after all.
 
 
Mirror
17:36 / 26.04.04
Skit, are you really reading the replies? You haven't really addressed the point that a number of people have put forward that "natural" is a tricky word. It doesn't necessarily mean what you want it to mean: "everything other than man." It simply means, "everything."

While I appreciate your compassion toward animals, I want to point out again that compassion is basically unknown in what you would define as the "natural" world. It is a useful sentiment for human beings to have, though, because it improves our chances for survival as a species.

And as far as changing the world goes, changing yourself is by far a better first step - and ceasing to hate people would be an excellent place to start. You've got so much compassion for animals, but what about all those other people out there? We may be destroying the world that supports us, but I think it's safe to say we're doing it with no malice. We're doing it instead in the way most ghastly crimes are done - with ignorance, stupidity, and short-sightedness. And the cure for that is to love your fellow man and educate him, not hate.
 
 
Skit
11:12 / 27.04.04
I didn't know plants have been known to feel pain, they have no nerves and no receptors as they have no brains! Plants might make noises but that in only beacause air is escaping from them, if you have sound proof however I would like to hear it.

I agree humans are natural but the things they do and use aren't, they are man made, and it is the man made things which distroy our enviroment.

I do think nature could be an eden, it is both complex and beautiful, and I feel that if we learnt to appreciate it and respect it, instead of manipulating it vas much as we do the worlds would be a better place.

I dont want to move this as I am trying to find out if anyone feels how I feel not preach to them how I think they should behave.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:10 / 27.04.04
Okay, I'm pretty much bored with this conversation now, for many of the same reasons other people have already said. As for plants feeling pain, it's more that they react to stimulus in a way that to our understanding would mirror a creature reacting to painful stimuli, , the most obvious case of 'stimulus-response' is turning to follow the sun across the sky, or curling up to protect against a frost. Of course, with no brain to control it's a subject of some high tension about how much of this is something a plant is doing and how much is natural selection making a plant do automatically.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:53 / 27.04.04
I dont want to move this as I am trying to find out if anyone feels how I feel not preach to them how I think they should behave.

In that case, I think this thread should probably go to Conversation after all (where I am sure you will get responses more in tune with what you were originally after, Skit).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:11 / 27.04.04
Plants might make noises but that in only beacause air is escaping from them

huh?

My initial objection to your argument (which I don't actually think is complete bollocks, I'd like to say NOW, before you start thinking I'm having a go at you) is not so much that humanity is/isn't "natural"... it's whether what's "natural" is by definition the best thing.

I have a very good friend who refuses to take any medicine that isn't "natural". And she's ill. All the time. I pointed out to her that, y'know, deadly nightshade's natural, but it's not necessarily good for you. She got cross.

I'm not offering an opinion either way right now... I'm too drunk to formulate an argument. But look at your assumptions before you go all-out to bolster your conclusions. 'sall I'm sayin.
 
 
Skit
07:18 / 28.04.04
OK if your bored then leave, I am leaving this thread as it is really going nowhere au revoir
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:59 / 28.04.04
Dude, it's only going nowhere because you, the topic starter, have refused to engage with any of the responses to your initial post. If all you want is to sound off, you would probably be better off investing in a soap box and small piece of real estate on which to put it.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply