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Comicbook Club: Essential Fantastic Four

 
 
sleazenation
19:40 / 19.04.04
As promised here, welcome to the Comicbook Club thread for the Essential Fantastic Four.

The idea is that we all take the opportunity to read or re-read the comics in question (or anyone of the first 3 volumes of Essential Fantastic Four I propose we cover here) and then discuss their experiences.

So, who wants to go first?
 
 
Persephone
02:22 / 20.04.04
I think that the Fantastic Four is truly a joycore comic. You couldn't say that this comic is overthought! I love how they're up in space getting bombarded by cosmic rays, and Reed's like well okay, heavier shielding would have been a good idea...

He's recklessly endangered the lives of his best friend, his fiancee, and her kid brother, but the first thought that pops into his head is... hey, I'm fantastic!

 
 
gergsnickle
02:39 / 20.04.04
Ha ha ha ha ha - that's great; I never thought about it ("Mr. Fantastic) that way. After attempting to watch the Fantastic Four movie this weekend I went back and checked out some of these Essential volumes. The thing that really struck me was how good the pacing is - in issue #1 the origin of the FF covers a zippy 5 pages. In today's comics that could've easily been dragged out over a couple of issues (or even a 4 issue story arc judging by some comics).

Good as those really early issues are, the comic really hits its stride in the 2nd and 3rd volumes of the essentials. My personal favorite right now is FF Annual #2 with the first telling of Dr. Doom's origin.
 
 
John Octave
04:14 / 20.04.04
Perhaps one of my favourite comic book stories of all time: Fantastic Four #19.

Reed finds a possible cure for Alicia's blindness (a radioactive element) in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics, so he just decides..."Hey, let's get on board Doom's time platform and go get it." There's just no words for how cool that is. I mean, that is how continuity should REALLY ideally be used. Not as something holding a writer back, but as a building block for future stories. The continuity had established a working time machine at that point, so Stan (and/or Jack, I don't want to get into who plotted what) decided "Well, let's play off that into a whole new and different story." This was the innovation of Marvel continuity: you couldn't read all your issues in a random order without being able to tell any difference like you could with Superman or Batman. Here there was a distinct sequence of events, and often a logical one (like right after Galactus invades, Reed decides in the next issue "Well, we'd better plan defences for the future in case that ever happens again"). Elegant in its simplicity.

Beyond that loving rant, how fun is the plot? Lacking in sophistication (because of COURSE the time travel mechanism won't work with radioactive elements, otherwise you'd have a viable cure for blindness in the modern world) but the plot is just so charmingly clever and crackles with a fun energy. It's got THE PHARAOH FROM THE BLOODY FUTURE, I mean. Modern comics spend so much time trying to be smart, they're not clever anymore, if that makes any sense. Where is all the wacky outrageous fun like we see in FF#19?

God, I love this issue.
 
 
Axolotl
09:44 / 20.04.04
I just bought the first volume of the Essential Fantastic Four. It is indeed great stuff, and reminds me of all those black and white Marvel UK reprints I used to devour as a child. I always loved the Fantastic Four, and these early stories are great. They are everything that made the Marvel Revolution excellent: Bickering real-to-life superheroes, check. Kick arse art, check. Crazy self references, check, especially the story where the villain (possibly Doom) lures the Fantastic Four into a trap by convincing Stan and Jack to call them about problems with the licensed comic strip. Totally crazy and implausible bits, check, like the story with the Skrulls being scared off by sci-fi movie monsters, and then being convinced that they are in fact cows.
I have to say though that I agree that the slightly later stories are significantly better, both in terms of art (I really don't like the early versions of the Thing) and in plot. Though it does lose some of the fun that makes these early stories so very good.
 
 
illmatic
11:08 / 20.04.04
I brought Volume 1 a while back, and though I love it dearly, I still haven’t finished it. I don’t know why. I think the stories and the art are really charming, there’s something I really love about them, but I just doesn’t make me turn the pages. I don’t find it as dramatic and compelling a read as other stuff. Perhaps it’s a bit too simple, I dunno. The stories don’t have the kind of drive that they would’ve had for, I dunno, a 9 year old bucktoothed American kid, ("Chip") saving up for a baseball by delivering “Grit” magazine or whatever it was called. Perhaps this thread will inspire me some. After reading Michael Chabon’s “Adventures of Caviler & Clay” last year (modelled on Stan and Jack’s early days to some extent), what really became evident to me is the rush of creativity going on in those stories – I almost feel they’re kind high off their own creative juices, y’know: “Ohmigod! We can put him a metal suit!! Let’s make him a East European dictator!!!” , “Yeah! And we can call him Dr DOOM!” *cue hysteria*. You can see the conventions of the genre being laid down. Perhaps being too familiar with the late variations of these conventions is what stops them being a compelling read for me.

The one I’m really been looking forward to buying is number 3 actually, (and I will rebuy now I’ve seen this thread) as that’s the time the LSD must’ve hit America’s water supply and things start to get a bit freaky. Kirby’s art starts to change, and the themes get a bit more cosmic. I mean, fucking Galactacus and the Silver Surfer. A massive shiny purple helmet that eats planets. Does it get better? I think not. I read B & W UK reprints of these when I was a kid and I can’t wait to read them again. The Skrull homeworld! All dressed up as gangsters! *swoon* Joycore, joycore, joycore.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:12 / 20.04.04
The first one is all about the set up. I mean, the Fantasic Four go broke (which is being done YET AGAIN in the Marvel Knights stuff), the bickering, the Thing quitting and comic back, and all the other stuff. The problem with the early issues are that they don't have the sheer inventiveness of the ones from around #40 to #80, where Kirby was packing the pages whatever popped into his brain, and Lee was doign his best to make sense of it all.

But the first issue itself? It shows that both Stan and Jack didn't want to get too far from the Big Monsters that they were cranking out on a weekly basis.
 
 
black mask
00:31 / 21.04.04
Abiding impression is the consistency of the Thing. Benjamin certainly firmed up as the comics progressed. He started out sludgy, now he's got edges. I'm no completist, so someone put me straight. Did he ever see the inside of a kiln? I'm also concerned that he is now friable, prone to acid rain and will almost certainly require pressure-hose cleaning and repointing in the near future. He's Grade 2* listed, you know.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
03:17 / 21.04.04
Most of the change in the Thing was due to inkers interpreting Jack's pencils. He was also a HUGE nod to the monster comics that Marvel was cranking out, as as they pulled further and further away from the monster books, the more he looked as if he was made of rocks.

I feel sorry for the people who read V2 and have to suffer through Vince Colletta's inks...those are easily the worst looking comics in the entire run, and it is a major relief when I get to the ones inked by Joe Sinnot, who was my favorite Kirby inker.
 
 
sleazenation
21:11 / 21.04.04
Some random thoughts on the first issue and what people have already said...

As Perseph says - there is no way Fantastic Four could be accused of taking itself too seriously, but then again neither is it a straight funny book, which is something which jars with me as I read it. I guess the closest thing I can compare it to is an Ed Wood movie - its fun and amusing, but you suspect the bits you are laughing at were not fully intended to be amusing...

Interesting comment on the monster books- while I am vaguely aware of some of marvel's early 60's output and the fact it changed its name from its previous incarnations as Timely and Atlas, I'm not that au fait with marvel's output of the time, so that wasn't really a link I made.

But yeah, like illmatic i actually found it heavy going turning the pages, a lloot of the stories just felt kind of flat - although the pirate sequence was fun.

Oddly the panels i found most fun were the street scenes with losts of ordinary folks. oh and the one showing the cutaway of the Baxter Building, I know that I'd have stared at that page for ours as kid making up all kinds of times the fant. four would use them.
 
 
Persephone
02:46 / 22.04.04
Oh yeah, definitely. I think that this book is quite ...innocently dark, I'd say.

E.g., Sue goads Ben into piloting the ship:

Ben, we've got to take that chance... unless we want the Commies to beat us to it!

...not to retrospectively judge Sue Storm's politics. Well, I guess I am retrospectively judging Sue Storm's politics.

It's also striking to compare the Fantastic Four --and particularly Johnny Storm-- with Spiderman:



"This isn't General Motors," my ass. That's a rich person's disdain for making money. Spiderman has to hustle for jobs for a simple reason --poverty!

To say nothing of the misogyny, and I don't just mean Sue Storm's power being invisibility. Tons of panels where Reed chides her for acting like a woman, for being "merely female." Why doesn't she tie his dick to the bumper of the Fantasticar?

It's really rather amazing that I like this comic. But I find it oddly ...inspiring. There's something sort of unfettered about its production. It seems to have come from somebody's unconscious, and that's where I think genius is. Though it's sort of a mess. Not to open a can of worms, but compared to Dave Sim I think it is... partly I think the reason that's such shit --apart from it being shit-- is that he's too conscious of the meaning of his work. It's overdetermined and pre-deconstructed. Where's the play in that?

I'm not sure if this is at all what you're saying...

...anyway, I'm off to read FF #19 as recommended!
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
05:39 / 22.04.04
The sexism in the comic isn't half as bad as it was in most fo the mainstream media at the time (watch an episode of Bewitched for example), but it did present a problem to people who came after, who wanted to make Sue into a "kickass empowered woman."

It's hard to graft such things onto her, since she was such a sterotype (the scientist's sweet girlfriend) people try to go too far the graft things onto her that don't seem to fit.
 
 
illmatic
13:06 / 22.04.04
Just a note on my favourite panels - they've got to be the big 3/4 page Kirby spreads that open each issue, usually with the FF clustered round some crazy science gizmo of Reed's: "This is a Radium Powered Thundering Orgas-Mo-Tron". Don't know if anyone remembers the Grant Morrison pisstake of these in one issue of Doom Patrol - the Chief in his crazy science lab - with Cliff Steele as The Thing character, yer bluff, run of the mill monstorously deformed guy - worried about what crazy science scheme Niles was cooking in his lab - turns out he's boling an egg! I loved that issue - really obviously affectionate towards the FF sources, yet a bit dark at the same time.
 
 
Simplist
17:01 / 22.04.04
...with Cliff Steele as The Thing character...

As a vaguely threadrotish aside, I've had this recurring fantasy of a multi-company crossover/team-up featuring all the Thing-knockoff characters comics have yet produced. Imagine a Kirbyesque cover featuring Ben Grimm, Cliff Steele, Hellboy, Kilowog...well, you get the idea. Add your favorite examples and have them all facing some monstrous threat together while spouting their signature lines...beautiful it would be, albeit in practice impossible to produce.

Actual relevant commentary to follow; I'm still digesting EFF v.1 as I begin reading v.2. I did enjoy Sue's response to Ben in issue 1, when he was reluctant to steal the ship (hm, did they ever suffer any consequences from, you know, stealing the ship?), something like, "come on Ben, we can't let the commies get there first!" Gotta love the sixties.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
01:44 / 23.04.04
Simplist, that is such a fantastic concept. It's gotta happen, somehow.

One of the things I love most about the Marvel U is Spider-Man's interaction with the FF. Possibly because of those fantastic Art Adams drawn issues of the FF from back in the day. But even in the page quoted, you can see what a rich dichotomy there is between them. More than anyone else, the FF are just revered by Manhattan, just as Spidey is reviled. It always shed such an intersting light on the lovable family that just sort of Aw Shucks stumbled into their popularity, while so many other heroes in the MU struggle so much. Why did these freaks get an easy ride?
 
 
scipio africanus
04:48 / 23.04.04
When Grant Morrison was doing Fantastic Four:1234, he did some interviews in which he discussed a mood of sick delirium he had noticed in the first few issues of the Lee/Kirby issues, a mood he wanted to duplicate/pay tribute to in his own story.

After I read this I had to go back and read the issues in question and see what he meant. Sure enough, even though I had read these comics dozens of times in my life, I had never noticed it, but he was right. There is something very sick and appealing (in a low-level-hallucination-fever-dream kind of way) going on under the surface of those stories.

It reminds me of when I was a kid and would do cough syrup or morning glory pills when I couldn't find LSD. Unintentional to be sure--it probably results from the awkward transition from one-off monster stories to continuing characters. There isn't much of the humor in these stories that would soon define Stan Lee's style.

Does anyone else notice this alleged mood, or am I just seeing it cuz Morrison says it's there?

As for Sue Storm's relation to feminism, it's important to remember that the pictures and the dialogue in FF are often telling two different stories. In my opinion, Kirby always had a lot of respect for his female characters. Sue Storm seems to save the day a lot in those early stories, if I remember right, which would be part of the plotting element, which was Kirby's domain. Most of the sexism is in Lee's dialogue.

Kirby's women sometimes seem to defer on the surface, but from another perspective can be read as being just not as interested in violence. One of the dominant themes in Kirby's body of work (and his life)is a simultaneous celebration and critique of male violence. Many of his females function as a voice of reason, telling the men how stupid they are being. Kirby's version of Sue is a strong female force, the kind of woman he adored his whole life in the form of his beloved wife Rosalind. Lee was just not interested in this characterization, he wanted a female character that fit the expectations of his perceived audience of young boys.

This isn't meant as Lee-bashing, I fucking LOVE Stan Lee, but it is a perfect example of the two collaborators having visions that didn't quite line up. This happened more and more as the series went on.

Anyone really interested in this should check out a series of articles in the Jack Kirby Collector Magazine called "A Failure To Communicate". It compares the finished comics to the pencil art that K turned in with margin notes describing the plot, which Stan would often just ignore, much to Kirby's chagrin.

By the way, invisibility is not a wimpy or effeminate power, it is one of the deadliest and most versatile powers a fictional character can possess.
 
 
Spaniel
09:15 / 23.04.04
By the way, invisibility is not a wimpy or effeminate power, it is one of the deadliest and most versatile powers a fictional character can possess.

Lol.

Just imagine a nasal voice.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
14:45 / 30.04.04
One thing that's really struck me about the first 20 FF issues is how sexless their universe is. On the surface, that's no surprise-- I mean, early 60s comic book, of course there's going to be no mention of sex, and the Torch will whine about mushiness every chance he gets.

But I started thinking about it, and the sex-avoidance leads to some weird stuff. Like, think about Ben and Alicia. Every time Reed works up some formula that reverts Ben to human form, Alicia says that she actually prefers him as The Thing. And you have to assume that Ben's big and rocky all over (and that he's still got his, well, Thing-- he's wearing pants all the time, after all). So either sex completely doesn't exist for them, or she really likes the rough stuff.

I'm sure it's supposed to be the former, but I've gotten kind of hooked on believing the latter. It adds a nice layer of freakiness to the book.
 
 
Peter Quantum
18:04 / 30.04.04
Oh COBRA!, that's just nasty. HA!
 
 
sleazenation
20:30 / 30.04.04
Its kind of what I think of as the Dickens effect. Characters don't lust after each other, they merely love each other - they don't have sex, they get married. It all seems almost designed to render a powerful emotional force somewhat impotent as well as, in many cases, crippling a text and turning it into a weird sexless beast. I can even see a case here for what Deva would no-doubt term repairing the text, re-establishing a sexual aspect that seems to have been forciblely removed.
 
 
Persephone
22:32 / 30.04.04
Here's one for you, Illmatic:



It's not all subtext, after all. (This is #27.) Not to mention my favorite panel of all time of Ben Grimm making an assault on Dr. Doom's Ovum of ...er, Doom. In a spermship.

Compare this also to Xavier in the original X-Men. He explicitly states --in his mind, but for Xavier that's like talking out loud-- that he loves Jean Grey, but:

I have no right! Not while I'm the leader of the X-Men, and confined to this wheelchair!

I'm thinking that spine/penis goes pretty far back in the X-Mythos.
 
 
Triplets
00:31 / 01.05.04
lol penis
 
 
Pants Payroll
01:26 / 06.05.04
Yeah, but everybody in X-Men was in love with Jean, except Iceman. I think even Magneto, if memory serves (it doesnt always).
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:39 / 07.05.04
I've only read the first 6 issues so far, but COBRA, it's so totally not "sexless." The first two times Submariner appears, Sue Storm is all rubbing up his bare chest. I'm sure the whole Reed-Sue-Submariner thing has been done to death, but it's very apparent in the first few issues that Reed ain't giving her something she needs, you know what I'm sayin?

Do you think Namor is slimy? Like, I don't mean -personality-wise. Just, if you brushed past him in the hall, would you get icky from it?
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
04:03 / 08.05.04
There is some weird stuff going on these comics. Really psychdelic stuff. Check out the Valley of Diamonds on iss.1 page 19, the Baxter Building flying to space, on iss.6 page 16, or the "Hypno-Fish", iss. 14 page 8 (Think of the odds of evolution coming up with a flying one-eyed hypnotic fish). I always thought (And I think this is the low-level-hallucination-fever-dream Morrison talks about) that the charcaters in these comics were (not to insult Kirby's Art, witch is one of my all-time favorite artists) like cheesy actors, and the backgrounds were cheesier cardboard backdrops put over something deeper and intrinsecal to the psyche going on that Lee and Kirby added unconsciously. I think Persephone makes two good points: "You couldn't say that this comic is overthought" and "he's (Dave Sim) too conscious of the meaning of his work". So if they didn't do it conciously, they did it unconciously.

Of course, this could be all wrong and I could be insane.
 
 
Axolotl
15:18 / 08.07.05
Anyone picked up the newly released Volume 4? I'm off to pick it up after work. I think it will be the perfect antidote to the current situation.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:10 / 11.07.05
I may not have mentioned this but there is a series you should all buy called Marvel's Collectors Item Classics (later Marvel's Greatest Comics).

Each issue reprints four Marvel 60's comics. So you get FF, Iron Man and one or two other (often an old Ditko/Kirby monster or sci-fi story). The series Marvel Tales does the same thing with Spider-Man, Dr Strange and Thor.

It's such great fun to read a ton of 60's comics in one sitting (in color I might add). This DOES involve ebay and/or Convention hunting but it is well worth it for the fun factor.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
05:12 / 12.07.05
I get all of the Essentials, just because I love the format (and they are easy to read on an exercise bike at the gym) and FF 4 kind of showed what a lot of older Marvel fans have told me: Kirby really cut back after the "HIM" story. The visuals tamed, and he seemed to be revisiting old themes and characters rather than continuing the explosion of new characters and ideas that made the FF such a great book at it's creative peak.
 
 
Axolotl
13:05 / 13.07.05
The "Essentials" series is indeed excellent, pretty much the only flaw I can find is the ink has a tendency to come off on your hands.
Having read Vol 4 over the weekend I'd tend to agree with you with regard to the revisiting of the characters instead of further expansion on the writing side. I'm not sure if the visuals tamed as such, I thought they were just as good as previously, just possibly having a tendency to once again revisit styles, positions and panels from previous stories. The main problem I had with this volume was the sheer amount of time Sue spends passively waiting around for the others to save her and/or the day. I know this is partly due to the pregnancy but it really dates the comic in a negative way.
 
  
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