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Underground > Policy & Help >

Can I ask moderators to do some general cleaning please?

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15:49 / 18.04.04

I've noticed a lot of threads without proper summaries recently - remember, the best summaries aren't just a list of searchable keywords, they're a proper set of sentences that explain what the topic is about and which incorporates often searched-for keywords into them. It's often useful to use sentences from the posts in question.

Could people also try to encourage people in their various sections not to just post speculative "Hey anyone seen this..." thread-starters. Can you get them to try and set a bit of background, maybe suggest some initial topics of conversation or to post about their expectations or a review (this is particularly the case in the Spectacle fora) - that way it makes the whole board make more sense.

I ask all this because I'm trying to get bits of the old functionality restored and I keep coming across things I'd like to change (and I've proposed about fifty moderation requests today alone) and as long as i can find excuses not to get important work done I will...

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:26 / 18.04.04

Certainly can. However, how do you want us to do this? One of my current concenrs is that we have a whole load of new bugs arriving, whom I have been directing to the Wiki wherever possible (can we make that link bigger, please? It's amazing how hard people seem to find getting to it), but too much scolding may lead to another kick-off and trollapalooza. What's our policy?

19:02 / 18.04.04

Burn them with pokers, hit them until their bits fall off and generally harangue them until they learn proper manners, upstart brats that they are. Or more seriously - I don't honestly know, we have to accept that until I can get some kind of semi-permeable membrane around the place that it's likely that the moderators will have to - very carefully - both try and do more maintenance and try and communicate the values and behaviours of the board to newcomers.

19:26 / 18.04.04

With regards to getting people to read the Wiki: Is it neccessary to call it the Barbelith Wiki? It's just that 'Get news and help on the Barbelith Wiki' doesn't strike me as being the best way to communicate the fact that all the info about how to post et al is in there.

An idea has just occured, inspired by the memory of the person who said they saved the html codes into a word document and copied/pasted from there whenever they wanted to use it. We could create a one-page text file with the codes in it, linked to with a prominent button at the top. Get people to download this, drawn by the promise of convience. Include, at the top of the document, a concise summary of board ettiquette covering summary structures, posting guidelines, etc etc. Offer the document for download as part of the registration procedure as well.

What are people's thoughts on this? Total pie-in-the-sky, or workable suggestion?

19:56 / 18.04.04

As with most things, an example is always a good idea, so here is a quickly thrown together example of what I'm talking about. The .rtf is just a couple of sections of Wiki edited together...needs some work of course but it might be a start.

20:25 / 18.04.04

...get people to download this, drawn by the promise of convenience

Screw convenience. I don’t see what’s so very difficult about reading a few pages on the history/conventions/responsibilities/html codes of the community you’re looking to join. Otherwise you’re not actually joining in with anything. This ‘idiot’s guide’ stuff is all very well, if you want idiots to hang around. The wiki isn’t very hard to find as it is, and anyway there’s no unpleasantness when anyone asks.

21:54 / 18.04.04

I don?t see what?s so very difficult about reading a few pages on the history/conventions/responsibilities/html codes of the community you?re looking to join.

The fact remains that people are not reading the Wiki, for whatever reason. They might just be fly-posters who want to throw in some stupid comment and dissapear, or they're not aware of the extent of information contained in the Wiki and therefore don't consider it important. If I could offer them a lollipop for reading the Wiki I would, but seeing as that's not practical there has to be some way of getting people to acquaint themselves with the board's basic principles.

Comments made by the recent arrivals from TMO proves somewhat that this board differs quite widely from others out there in terms of management and mechanisms. If people are used to things working one way in 99% of the discussion boards they frequent, then of course they're going to be somewhat confused when they arrive here.

This ?idiot?s guide? stuff is all very well, if you want idiots to hang around.

Providing an 'idiot's guide' does not mean we're going to get idiots hanging around. It means that (hopefully) the contributions of new members are of a quality that reflect the fact that they are not idiots. This board can be intimidating enough to new users without them angsting about screwing up the formatting of their first couple of posts or making themselves look silly be having to make a 'how do I do this?' post. Anyway, there's already been a discussion along similar veins before...

The wiki isn?t very hard to find as it is, and anyway there?s no unpleasantness when anyone asks.

At the moment there's no unpleasantness, yes. But come back in a fortnight when the people who are now calmly referring people to the Wiki start getting more than a bit pissed off at having to do so ten or twenty times a day.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:29 / 18.04.04

First of all- Tom: point taken. Sure thing.

Second... those with no web fu (such as myself) may not actually understand the word "Wiki"- I'd never heard it before here. Yeah, the link's there... but it may not necessarily look like the one to follow- "news and help" is perfect for those of us who already know what it consists of... but it doesn't make it seem like the place to check out for posting etiquette etc which, as far as I can tell, is one of its most important functions.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:33 / 18.04.04

Oh, (apologies for the double-post) just to add: Grey Area's pretty much got my thoughts down pat. ('twas me who suggested the Word document thingy! Although it was Mordant's expertise that made it worth doing, so "not so smug me".)

And no, I don't think an idiot's guide will necessarily encourage idiots. Remember- people fuck up here (forgetting abstracts, posting in the wrong fora, whatever) for many reasons. Not all of them to do with stupidity. Some people just don't know how message boards work. I certainly didn't when I started here. It doesn't (I would hope) make their contributions of any less worth.

06:39 / 19.04.04

And it isn't really to do with knowing 'how message boards work' because Barbelith works differently - other boards don't have topic abstracts, and they make posting links etc much easier, as Barbelith used to do. So I think it's unfair to expect people to catch on immediately - they think they know how message boards work and it's confusing when this one is harder work.

08:59 / 19.04.04

Maybe the link to the Wiki could just be renamed to something like 'Posting FAQ'?

10:19 / 19.04.04

Oh Jesus, Tom Coates! Get a life! Let people have fun for God's sake!

10:27 / 19.04.04

Hey blukachina - if you're enjoying Barbelith and the quality of the conversations it's precisely because people like me and the moderators actually put in a decent amount of work to keep this place on track and encouraging people to write decent posts and behave responsibly. I know it's not very glamourous, but hey - what I can I say - these things take work.

10:46 / 19.04.04

PS. As you've probably noticed, I've added some stuff to the reply and new topic screens to make it easier for people to find information about posting etiquette and how to format text and links and stuff. It wouldn't do any harm for someone to go into them and start to neaten them up a bit...

23:44 / 19.04.04

I like it. I mean the new 'Before replying to this thread, make sure that you've read about the board's posting etiquette and know how to format text, post links and images' bit, it's a fab idea and I hope it works.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:55 / 19.04.04

Yeah, it's a neat addition.

06:14 / 20.04.04

Perhaps we should add: "Before replying to this thread, please be aware that no-one cares what you think. Still want to post?"

15:10 / 20.04.04

Actually, since this seems to be veering onto the topic of "getting people to read the wiki," I've been interested in the place brought up in this Conversation thread -- a London(?)-based message board that just discovered Barbelith and is wondering what to make of it.

Of course, I'm not helping.

Anyway, there are some interesting criticisms on that thread -- mainly directed at the moderation process (can't edit typos) and at the wiki (too big, too wordy, too much at first).

I think the direct links to relevant areas of the wiki in the reply screen makes it seem less like a novel that must be read before venturing your first shy post here. But in a general way, it might be worth seeing if there's other things that could be done to make the board, not easier, but... slicker?

This is a bit off topic, isn't it. Still, worth checking out.

20:46 / 20.04.04

When you say slicker, what do you mean?

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:01 / 20.04.04

Honestly, I don't feel we need to change to make the board a better place for members of other boards. The inability to correct your own typos is annoying, but the alternatives - either returning to people the ability to edit their own posts (contraindicated by history) or giving moderators absolute power (contraindicated as moderation by vote is one of the things that defines Barbelith). One can only suggest endurance or closer proofreading.

I don't mean to be unkind, but if somebody is struggling with the amount of text contained in the Wiki, they may not get a lot out of Barbelith. Links to specific pages good, but I don't think it's unfair to ask people to check out the Wiki entry on posting before posting, on formatting before filling their post with UBB code or on a particular forum before starting a thread in it. It's not even as if you have to read the whole thing to start with, only when it becomes relevant...

21:11 / 20.04.04

By "slicker" I'm not sure what I mean. If it was film editing, I'd say "more invisible" or "more seamless."

I do think the direct links to the listy-parts of the wiki on the "post reply" screen do that... they're more invisible, less big block-o-text than the wiki front page is. I do *like* the wiki front page as it is, though. It's clear... just a lot of information at once, and not along the same navigational schema as the site itself, entirely.

I'm not saying we should mess with things just because some bunch of Boeotians says we should, but that we who are habituated to the system here probably should pay attention to what stands out to a population who aren't habituated.

That's all.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:21 / 20.04.04

Hmm... having peered over at TMO, they have mentioned the idea of limiting the power to edit your own posts to maybe three minutes after it has been made. On Barbelith that could be too long on some threads, but if it was doable it might be an idea to pick out immediate faults in posts...

21:22 / 20.04.04

Yeah, that's exactly the thing I was thinking of -- it's an interesting idea. I have no idea how to implement it, but it's an interesting idea, and in a direction I really would never have thought of.

21:49 / 20.04.04

It's an idea that has been proposed before and the major reason why it wasn't undertaken was that it was very difficult to explain to people why they could edit posts immediately in some cases and not in others (ie. if they'd waited 30 seconds too long). We do have a preview reply thing, and - to be honest - the moderators are pretty accomodating and fast when it comes to fixing typos, so I don't really see that as being a particularly enormous problem.

miss wonderstarr

23:16 / 20.04.04

Honestly, I don't feel we need to change to make the board a better place for members of other boards

With due respect, because I admire the energy you people put into Barbelith and I've just read up on your awful troll problem -- I'm a long-term heavy user of TMO, but that doesn't make me just a TMO member.

A member of another board can readily become a useful and valuable member of your board. You don't need to be territorial about it.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:30 / 20.04.04

Oh, I agree entirely. And there is plenty of stuff that we can learn from each other. I was just saying that somebody coming over and finding in the first week or so that there are things not to their liking may profit from changing their behaviour to accomodate the peculiarities of the board, rather than having us change to accomodate that discomfort, when it might be caused by something characteristic of how Barbelith functions. Like moderator actions being slower because our moderators vote rather than having personal fiat, and you can't take out that Kerplunk stick without a load of marbles falling down...

Certainly no disrespect is meant to those who frequent other boards, or other boards themselves.

miss wonderstarr

23:40 / 20.04.04

I have already seen examples of your personal moderation that I admire, and I see much that's worthy here. The editing thing doesn't bother me much because I have never liked systems where people can delete their posts or reduce them to "x" cause they turn coward or think twice. As far as typos and html errors go, you should be able to check them with the Preview function.

HOWEVER, I do think a "today's active topics" page like what we have on TMO -- where you can see the last contribution to every thread -- would be very useful if possible, because the only alternative is to try to remember how many replies a thread had last time, or what time the last post was at, or click and reread it to see if anyone's responded to you.

23:54 / 20.04.04

Wy karnt orl bords b sam/ me no can red wki get knof con conf aa fuk it

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:00 / 21.04.04

We did actually used to have a "todays active topics" thing, along with the most recently contributed threads being flagged up on the front page - the recent redesign took them away, but they will quite possibly be returned at some point - there's a thread on desired changes to the board elsewhere in the Policy.

Black Mask - basically, Barbelith doesn't use an of-the-peg BBS system, so it is a bit peculiar compared to many - for example, it doesn't use UBBscript. The Wiki really *is* pretty helpful on this - I knwo it is a bit big, but it only has to be read when you need a particular section...

miss wonderstarr

00:04 / 21.04.04

How did you understand his complaint.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:08 / 21.04.04

Dude, that's totally how *I* sound at this time in the morning. Rassinfraasssin insomnia...

00:10 / 21.04.04

Okay. Brace yourself. Are you ready? Are you sure? You're ready? Okay...

Sometimes, I read whole books. Well, it was just the once, actually. It was a pretty small book, too. And I haven't exactly finished it. But, I will. Soon.

I actually like it that all boards are different. When I was giving the impression in my previous post that I thought all boards should be the same I was using a comedic device called sarcasm. Okay, I fucked it up. Actually, come to think of it, it may have been facetiousness. It certainly wasn't irony. I feel like such a fool, now.

00:13 / 21.04.04

I am drinking Chartreuse and Heineken from the little keg-cans.

I know, I know, I've gone off-topic.

miss wonderstarr

00:17 / 21.04.04

Black Mask, that isn't quite how we do things on Barbelith. You might want to read the Wiki before you post like that again. Also, a search comes in handy.

Any more posts like yours and I'm moving this to Conversation once I have the requisite say-so from Tom, kay?

Welcome to the 'Lith, friend!

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:19 / 21.04.04

That is disconcerting. It's like Colonel Kurtz, but with huggles. I am going to put a pillow over my head somewhere.

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