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Alan moore's Big Numbers

 
 
molotovwaiting
06:03 / 15.04.04
I just found issue 1 at Comics Kingdom in Sydney. a whole stack of number ones, looking unloved, like they were stored in some cardboard box the last 14 years and could not be shifted at the time. alas no issue 2. after reading number1, was not too impressed. some nice moments but ideas are a little forced maybe better that it was not finished. the ideas seem to have been refined through his 'voice of fire' and 'from hell'. impressions anyone?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:51 / 16.04.04
I heard there was a third issue by a new artist after Sienkiewicz supposedly found the job too hard and dropped the project. I can't remember who it was now, though I'm sure it is easily found on Google. Anyway, I understood that this mysterious part 3 had actually been released, but I've never seen it myself.

That this series never reached anything like completion is one of the small tragedies of recent comic book history. It had a great deal of promise in its playful riffing on everyday (Northampton, anyway) turns of speech -- from memory, not having read it in years, I can recall "you don't think we should use language?", "a genie in a peach" and the "Tt" mouth-clucking punctuation, which could have become a lingustic motif equivalent to LoEG's "aheh" and Watchmen's "hurn".

Great b/w art, though a bit over-literal perhaps. I admire the talent that turns Northampton train station into a photo-realistic frame, but, you know...what does that frame tell me apart from that Sienkiewicz is really good at painting copies of Moore's snapshots? They might as well stick in the photograph and have the artist just swirl a bit of grey paint over the top. Again, I vividly remember a whole-page splash of a coffee cup seen from above, cream swirling in. Odd shifts into Stray Toasters savage cartoony madness.

The plot seemed to be going nowhere slowly, but still I would really like to know what Moore planned with it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:53 / 16.04.04
Eh OK this board's HTML rather than UBB italics have made me look like a loser.
 
 
sleazenation
23:58 / 16.04.04
The art for issue 3 was completed and was printed in a retrospective interview thing a few years ago - the plan was that Al columbia, Sienkiewicz's protege, was supposed to complete the project but after being placed under extreme pressure he had a breakdown and destroyed all his completed big numbers artwork. As Kevin Eastman said at the time that there is an issue 3 but how can they publish that when there isn't going to be any more cos Al burned it - for a more comprehensive version of this read How To Be an Artist by eddie campbell...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:58 / 17.04.04
OK, but I would expect Moore wrote a plan for the whole 12 issues, and scripts for at least some of them. Does nobody on the whole internet have any idea where this series was going to go? Apart from, generally, that it was about a big shopping mall disrupting an existing community.

Actually, I just remembered Moore telling me about this series in person when I fanbushed him at the "Ballad of Halo Jones" play in London, maybe in 87. How it was going to feature all the subcultures that evolve within malls, like girls who spend their whole day inside without seeing sunlight.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:32 / 17.04.04
was the watchmen grunt not more like, 'hein' rather than hurn?

kinda bugged me actually.

big numbers? - there was a feeling that comics in the nineties really could have taken a whole new direction if the momentum of the 80's revival had managed to see Dark Knight and Watchmen as a way out of genre rather than a reinforcement.

Big Numbers for me, was the comic which may have been able to do that. Big Numbers had massive potential. It had more in common with say Alan Bleasdale's early nineties channel 4 drama, GBH (and the complex storytelling and character interplay, politics and multiple narratives therein) than say maus or other supposed mature but non-superhero titles.

I find it a great tragedy that this story remains untold.

So much so, in fact that I may break into the hairy giant's bought hoos and steal the character and plotline wallchart he always bangs on about in interviews.

Then I may finally be able to relax.

you cunts.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:40 / 17.04.04
kovacs: sintrestin bout yer comments re Moore and the transparent-skinned mallrats. seems so dated now.

tho

much as I much admire Fae Hell, I think Big Numbers (or the Mandlebrot Set as it was originally titled (hey, Mandlebrot set, that could have been the name given to the mall-gangs)) would have been a more interesting work.

In fact it's survival may have led to the abortion of Moore and Campbell's penny dreadful.

Tho, check with the sleaze (change your name, drop the nation, follw the brand) for facts such as

these.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:48 / 17.04.04
Was the watchmen grunt not more like, 'hein' rather than hurn

It wasn't spelled "hein", no. French people say "hein". I think Rorschach was Polish American or something. Anyway, it was kind of like his "gollum" -- a noise in the throat, or so I assumed.

big numbers? - there was a feeling that comics in the nineties really could have taken a whole new direction if the momentum of the 80's revival had managed to see Dark Knight and Watchmen as a way out of genre rather than a reinforcement.

Yes...although this subgenre did become fairly established in Deadline, Crisis, St Swithin's Day. I would struggle to recall all the names but to me the epitome was "Straitgate", which I'm thinking might have been John Smith and Sean Phillips.

Moore's "A Small Killing" and Big Numbers could also be placed in this category of comics-about-real-life. I guess it could be traced back to Love and Rockets? Phillip Bond (God I'm just saying the names that sound right...) and his Deadline strip "Wired World" was a sorta UK evolution of Maggie and Hopey. See also "Hugo Tate" and countless small press comics of the period, many of which I was semi-involved with as the cottage industry was so small we used to get National Express coaches to visit each other. I'm talking 93 here.

Anyway, it struck me that Straitgate showed the subgenre reaching its deadend of semi-self-parody. It was real-life-angst by numbers. Twentysomething guy wakes up. Fragmented captions:

"Love..."

the voices whitelight raygun in my

"love will tear us"

the oily smell of sex

"apart...again"

the Slow Clowns are coming

dialog: "No job. No girlfriend. Might as well have another wank."

ETC

So frankly I think this new direction in comix got pretty tired pretty quick. Some of the titles I listed above were standout quality, though.
 
 
sleazenation
15:38 / 17.04.04
I always kind of connect Big Numbers with Dave McKean's Cages rather that with A Small Killing... this is probably down to their similar formats...

Cages and Big Numbers both took themselves seriously as self-consciously 'adult' comics. They refused to be bound by the conventions in terms of art style, paper quality or other format constraints. Of course, I'm not sure how many people have even read Cages - Its hard back collected format is quite expensive at £50 (£34.99 on amazon at the moment...) but is a fantastic read...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:48 / 17.04.04
The connections are probably tenuous but I felt at the time that Big Numbers was part of a move towards doing comics not about superheroes but "real life" -- amplified by the fact that many of the creative teamsters (Moore, Morrison, McKean, Sienkiewicz, Smith) had previously been spearheading the revisionist superhero subgenre.

I used to read FA (originally Fantasy Advertiser) magazine and I'm pretty sure they would have been discussing this kind of trend in there at the time. Moore certainly said explicitly that he wanted to get away from superheroes and that the masked crimefighter stuff had been done to death. Anyway, these lettercols, articles and published interviews, combined with the type of strips that made up Deadline and Crisis in the early 90s, gave me some sense that we were seeing a struggling emergent trend.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself here but I am trying to put this vague and unsupported retro-grasp of a Zeitgeist in words.
 
 
+#'s, - names
15:56 / 17.04.04
can find some pages from big numbers 3 here
 
 
Bed Head
15:57 / 17.04.04
Hey, I liked Straitgate (God, I’m just beginning to realise what a tragic John Smith fan I am). It had some lovely Sean Phillips art. Really depressing angst mixed with sun-dappled watercolours = utter fabness. And much as I love Grant, it pissed all over Bible John, which it ran sort-of concurrently with. Oh, and Cages rocks.

Big Numbers: Mmn. I remember buying it without being blown away. I liked its squareness but hated the stiffness and dullness of the art, it was overdone. Even my dull grey life at the time was more vivid and colourful than that. Thing is, its become this legendary ‘lost work’ now, so I’m sure that if it was ever actually any good, it would have been picked up and completed by now, like V For Vendetta was. Because it’s a finished script that’s worth a lot of money, and continues to this day to generate its own weight in publicity. I suspect it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

But the phonetic accents all the characters spoke in amused me. They read like refugees from Last Of The Summer Wine. Alan Moore must be about the only person in the whole country who considers Northampton to be in ‘the North’.
 
 
sleazenation
16:42 / 17.04.04
The other thing to be remembered about Big Numbers is that it came out of Mad Love, a publishing operation that was only part-owned by Alan Moore. It was also part owned, if memory serves and the account in the Alan Moore Tribute book from Abiogenisis Press is to be believed (and there are no reasons I am aware of to doubt it), By Moore's former wife, Phylis (I'm not sure if they are now divorces or estranged). From the account presented in the book, Big Numbers ended in difficult circumstances for all concerned and I can see why Moore might be reluctant to pursue completing it...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:16 / 17.04.04
Thanks for that link to Big Numbers 3. Fascinating to peek at those pages, though in a way it reminded me how... well, boring the first two were.

I suppose with the first episodes I was counting on something building up, so was making allowances for the mundanity, the slow pace, the charmless characters. If 3 was just the same, and it sure looks like it, I think I might have found my patience running short.

One interesting thing...looks like maybe the protagonist's terminated daughter appears as a ghost with two real kids towards the end.
 
 
Krug
04:01 / 18.04.04
This has nothing to do with Big Numbers but I got Cages for 99 cents (plus 4$ shipping) on ebay. The guy who listed it didn't know spelt the title and the author both wrong.

It came shrinkwrapped.

Still haven't bothered reading it though.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:16 / 18.04.04
How wrong can you spell "Cages"?

I agree about the dodge accents in Big Numbers by the way. My people moved to "Hampton" just after the books came out, and it's like an hour and ten minutes from London. There's a distinct culture -- kind of second-rate, second-hand satellite version of the capital, like so many other cities: only the most obvious mainstream shops, films, brands, but a fucking army of 14 year old gothics mingling with the pikey scraped-back bleach-haired prampushers -- however, they don't talk especially different.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:28 / 18.04.04
kovacs and others:

I'm not suggesting Big Numbers could have become the precise template for a new direction: more as a pointer to various different directions which writers could explore rather than mire themselves in storytelling, sophisticated or otherwise, shot through a superhero lens.

Big Numbers was bold. I personally rated the artwork. I loved the greyness (i understood that to be pretty damn important to the narratve actually. I too was a FA slut in the late 80s so I was aware that as the story unfolded, more colour would be used). I was 17 when it came out: having graduated from fantastic four to 2000AD to swampy, watchy et al, with 'the numbers' I felt, "yeah!".

ps. moore's represetation of accents isnae brilliant. his attempt at jock-speak in V for Vendetta was a bit embarrasing and I remember chastising ther english cunt for it (in my bedroom, 1988, 'swotting' for my 'Higher' exams).

This is what I said:

Moore, ya fuckin english fanny, yer patter's pure pish, cunty-baws.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:35 / 18.04.04
(i understood that to be pretty damn important to the narratve actually. I too was a FA slut in the late 80s so I was aware that as the story unfolded, more colour would be used).

Yeah, he said he was going to be starting from the premise "at last we can use exciting black and white, instead of that boring colour." There was one colour fractal panel in #2. I think all of #12 was going to be in colour.

So you remember all that Captain Courageous, Martin Skidmore stuff. I had an article or two in that period FA! It was the late 80s equivalent of this kind of board, for me. I felt it was smugly cliquish but then they were all a lot older than me and probably did know each other in real life. The Watchmen roundtable -- what felt like a whole issue of Moore, Gibbons and some intelligent fan-journos talking about the motifs, narratives and characters -- was fantastic.
 
 
Bed Head
14:28 / 18.04.04
[rot] Oh, I still gotta Grant Morrison interview from that period FA which I tore out and kept, it left such an impression upon me. It’s from just before Doom Patrol comes out and he’s so cocky and full of himself, he knows how good it is. Actually (...checking...), yeah, he’s being interviewed by Mark Millar. It’s a funny read. And he’s briefly quite nice about Alan Moore and his comics. Mmm. I suppose I should scan it and email it to Mister Dan Fish, so he can hoist it up and spread the joy.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:39 / 18.04.04
Reading an FA review of the first Morrison DP (issue #19 about...Red Jack I think?) got me reading that title for the first time*...which got me reading Shade, Sandman, Animal Man and all the other pre-Vertigo titles. So, yeah.

*actually I came in on issue #26 and had to pay top collectors' wack for the previous storylines, including a TENNER for #19! which was a lot for me.
 
 
ekam
20:50 / 18.04.04
Ah, yes. Big Numbers. It really seems like it would have been THE MASTERPIECE ("shopping and fractals," like Mr. Moore said.)

Here's a page with two transcripts of Alan talking with the blokes who were going to make it into a tv series. It really seems like it would have been quite awesome

clicky.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:16 / 18.04.04
you see him walking off across the carpark and the little phantom girl just runs out from the foreground and starts to run after him. He's got custody of the ghost, you know, CHRISTINE by this time she hasn't seen the abortion for a few issues, she's got over it, at the end of it, he is left wondering, 'I wonder if I'd stayed with her and we'd had the kid I wouldn't have ended up such a cunt?'

MJB: It's a terrific title, Custody of the Ghost.

ALAN MOORE: Custody of the Ghost, you know it's sort of, he ends up with custody of the ghost.


ha ha my detective work about the Phantom Termination Girl was right.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
16:12 / 19.04.04
yeah kovacs, the round table discussion was mind blowing (at the time) I think that may have been issue 100 or so. It was an entry into the world of seroius discussion about comics for me - as you say, a paperspace predessor to this sp(l)ace.

and the granty interview by miilar - riot - v. funny. - I remember there was a rather beautiful cover painting by McKean of Black Orchid for that ish n all.

i think it was no. 106 or 107 or summat.

(maybe tho, it had a piers rayner constantine cuv, with the lad hitchin a lift - 'gan canny' - out of newcastle.)

glory days.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
08:49 / 24.04.04
The FA Interview is now uploaded, and ready to be discussed HERE!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:06 / 24.04.04
Some of the dialogue in Big Numbers was classic- "chemically castrated? Dissolve 'em off, do they?" or something along those lines.

I also loved Straitgate. (Now, though, it's occurring to me that I was about 16 at the time, and that was an awfully long time ago... I have to read it again.) BH- let me join you in the John Smith support group. We can picket Vertigo to bring back Scarab (which RULED!!!) and everything...
 
 
The Falcon
03:10 / 25.04.04
I like John Smith, too. Though everyone goes on about his one Hellblazer ish which seems to revolve wholly around the premise that John has a whitey speaking to old dears in the laundry. Wasn't worth five note, anyway.

There's a good little in-joke about Big Numbers in one of the 1963 editorial or letters pages.

Prob'ly woulda been good; I'm a bit young for all that.
 
 
Janean Patience
18:28 / 27.03.09
Continued!

Issue three in photocopies. If you ever read the first two, worth reading.

Oddly enough - or perhaps not, having revealed myself to be a crazed Alan Moore fanboy - I was thinking about the ol' Numbers the other day. I've hoped it would be continued for many years, and my pick for artist was Eddie Campbell: he's worked with Alan before, he's proved he can stick with him on long-haul projects, and he's an amazingly versatile artist. Reading this, I've come to the realisation that Campbell, or indeed Moore, going back to this wouldn't be a good thing. It's dated and dead. Both are better employing themselves doing what they're into right now.

I bet Straitgate's dated really badly, too. I fucking loved it though.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
18:42 / 27.03.09
That's weird: I just chose Sienkiewicz's "Fractals in my Tea" (Splash page issue 2) for my desktop background two or three weeks ago...
Thanks for the link.
 
  
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