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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:49 / 25.09.06
Apropos of nothing, really, other than that I just mentioned another poster in a thread and this crossed my mind-

a kind of flag whereby you'd know if you'd been mentioned somewhere on the board. Not for vanity reasons, but in case of arguments and stuff, so if you were being misquoted you'd have a chance to correct things, and so the mods wouldn't have to do all that icky PM "look, we're talking about you here. You might want to join in" stuff.

I'm dreaming here, really- I know such a thing would be nigh-impossible to implement, and could also theoretically lead to more, rather than less, ugliness... but it's a nice idea in principle.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:50 / 25.09.06
Just do a site search for your name on Google or whatever. If you really need to.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:53 / 25.09.06
Yeah, I know that works. I'm thinking more in terms of when people don't necessarily know they're being talked about. Sh*d*ws*x and the like.

The Google search is great if you actually feel like looking for yourself. If you're being a dick, and "we"'re talking about booting you, and you're enough of a dick not to realise that might be a concern, you're unlikely to Google just on the off-chance.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:12 / 28.09.06
That was possibly more curt a reply than I intended it to be, Stoatie. Sorry. My Policy-inspired exhaustion rising to the top again.

I've just requested this elsewhere, not entirely seriously, but now that I think about it in a bit more depth I'm not sure that it wouldn't be a useful option: banning people from specific fora, rather than from the entire board. Paranoidwriter, as a number of people have pointed out recently, is not helping matters in Policy but isn't necessarily doing an enormous amount of damage elsewhere on the board. I wouldn't propose a board-wide ban, but I think a temporary locking-out from Policy would be in the interests of all serious threads hereabouts.

Similarly, a forum-specific ban function may have helped us in other areas in the past. If nothing else, it's less of a drastic measure than a full-on booting and less likely to get people up in arms. it could be useful in forcing people into cooling-down periods, for example, or in trying to get them to look at their posts from a distance - a potential solution to some of Temple's recent problems.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:14 / 28.09.06
Could that be engineered? Otherwise, we'd have to have a standing agreement to delete whatever a person posts in a particular forum for a set period of time...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:36 / 28.09.06
Which isn't practical, no.

It could be done - other boards I'm on that use off-the-shelf software, rather than purpose-built, allow admin to limit both viewing and posting rights to any forum they choose. You're just matching records up from different tables in the database, as far as I can tell. Remove posting privileges for user number X in forum Y. That's a very, very simplistic view of it, of course - there's lots more work in there, I'm sure, and I don't know if that stuff falls within Tom's area of expertise or not.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:33 / 28.09.06
Right. As an alternative to actual banning, this might be quite useful, although I don't know how we'd agree to it - more enervating "pico-banning" threads?\

Worth PMing Tom to ask about?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:52 / 28.09.06
more enervating "pico-banning" threads?

God, no. I've been so close to handing in my Policy moderating badge over the last few months, any increase in that kind of activity is going to push me over the edge. I doubt I'm the only one.

I'm wondering if some combination of this by-forum ban with a three strikes rule could be an answer. A first strike can be initiated by any moderator and requires a relatively large number of agreeing votes to pass. As we move onto the second and third strikes, the number of required agreements shrinks. Three strikes = forum-specific ban for a set amount of time. User is notified on their strike count as and when it changes, giving them the opportunity to question it or amend their behaviour off their own backs.

Dunno. Convoluted, maybe. Anything's got to be better than what happens at the moment, though.
 
 
enrieb
20:55 / 28.09.06
There was a small discussion about ‘Temporary bans and Freezing of suits’ at the time of the shadowsax case, It also raised the issue of a three strikes policy

Temporary suspension of suits?

This could probably be implemented (If the programming could be tweaked?) by the use of the ‘ignore button’ if moderators had the ability to apply ‘mass ignore’ for a suit that became problematic.

I would not like to see this used as a punishment more as a damage limiter, for when suits seem to be acting in a manner that is likely to disrupt the board, when serious trolling issues arise and if moderators have good reason to suspect that a suit has been hacked.
 
 
HCE
21:01 / 28.09.06
A little clock that says Barbelith Time Now Is:
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:12 / 28.09.06
Ah - I'm putting together some feedabck threads from the Barbewrong discussion, but suit freezes escaped my attention... I'll put them and this into the thread on moderator powers.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:15 / 29.09.06
I've asked Tom and locking people out of individual fora is unfortunately not an option at the moment.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
09:52 / 29.09.06
Thank Dog for that. "Ostracise" is such a scary and "head in the sand" type of concept. I admit, I dislike banning and taking away people's privileges.

I'm not intending to start a row; but obviously I do have some involvement in all this.

And of course, "It's my fault".

Sorry, B. And my apologies to you, Tom, as well: I am not wilfully destroying or creating trouble for this great place, or anything so "evil / dark / trollish / etc"; promise.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:09 / 29.09.06
Yeah - that's not actually such a good thing, PW, because if we can't keep people who compulsively rot threads in the Policy out of the Policy alone, then we have to start balancing the needs of Barbelith against the needs of that member more broadly.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
10:25 / 29.09.06
Haus, please, let - it - go. Or just get it over and done with and (if YOU like) start a "Shall we ban p.w?" thread somewhere. This is boring me now as much as some of you. I also dislike getting rude PM's, having people "wish" they could shut me up, etc. I don't want to leave. I do not want to fight. I want to discuss, meet cool people, learn from them, and other cool stuff like that.

And Haus, I could apply your criteria to your behaviour in some threads, couldn't I? It's all subjective, logic or no logic, non? (Feel free to send me a nice PM)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:31 / 29.09.06
As a brief aside:

Ostracism as am institution was brought in by the Athenian democracy. It was designed to put a brake on people whose actions were a cause of concern to the demos. Every citizen was allowed a vote. If more than 6,000 votes were cast, the recipient of the greatest number of votes was ostracised.

Ostracism meant that you had to leave Attica for ten years. That was it. You were not judged, you were not called a bad person. You remained a citizen of Athens, and you were allowed to retain all your property and have it administered in your absence according to your instructions, and the money from it sent on. Outside the bounds of Attica, you were free to associate with anyone you wished, and Athenians were free to associate with you. At the end of the term, you could return without a stain on your character.

Some equivalent form of that would, it strikes me, be very useful - a way of removing people without it being a judgement on them as people. We got closer to it than we have before, I think, with 33, when, ultimately, he was banned because we simply didn't think he would be able to moderate his behaviour or his expressed beliefs on Barbelith. Mad, not bad, although there was still considerable overlap in the discussion because of the things he had said. I'd like to move towards that model, so that banning is not such an exhausting and bitter experience.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:38 / 29.09.06
Oh, by the way, if a couple of days late- no offence taken, Randy.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
19:29 / 29.09.06
My wish-list:


1) Either we all moderate our own posts proper or the number of mod's to approve a correction changes to 5.

2) When another member is mentioned by name, we place (I dunno!) HTML tags of some kind around their name, which sends an automatic PM to their inbox.

3) All moderated posts have a symbol which illustrates this for EVERYONE to see.


I may have others, but we only usually get 3 wishes, eh?
 
 
Char Aina
20:08 / 29.09.06
why 1)?
it seems strange to be placing both far less and far more agreement as preferable to the current system.
i'm baffled, dude.
 
 
Smoothly
20:39 / 29.09.06
I kind of agree with (3). It came up in another thread, and I still feel it would be a really useful:

Could there be a rolling record of mod actions made available for everyone to see? Something that would tell anyone who cared what kind of mod action was proposed to what thread when, the reason given for making it, and who voted on it and how? This might allay concerns about bad moderation were they aroused. Is there anything secret about that information?
 
 
HCE
22:55 / 29.09.06
http://www.barbelith.com/topic/14614

That was useful? Or did you want to see a different variation, like a table?
 
 
Smoothly
23:09 / 29.09.06
Sorry, no, I meant a table from the database, like the membership list (see a few posts down from the one I linked to above).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:10 / 29.09.06
I can get behind 2) and 3), but 1) I'm really not getting.

Distributed moderation is what Barbelith's all about. You can't just say stuff, wait for a response, then change your original post. Like what they do everywhere else.

And given that, why five? Why not three, as we have? Or twelve? Or eleventeen? Either you trust distributed moderation, and the moderators, or you don't.

When I first joined Barbelith, about five years back, you could instantly moderate your own posts. And it caused no end of trouble, especially given the nature of the discussion that sometimes takes place here. Yeah, it would flag up "post edited by (your name here)", but given that most people went back and corrected typos in their own posts (as happens with the majority of mod requests now) that actually meant bugger all, as it was a suffix to most posts in most threads.

I think one of the ideas behind the distributed moderation system is that people should actually think before hitting the "post" button... yeah, you can fuck it up (Christ knows I do it often enough) but you can't fix it instantly.

...am I horribly wrong here?
 
 
Smoothly
23:12 / 29.09.06
No, you're terribly right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:22 / 29.09.06
Well, we used to have an "edited by" function, which told you who had edited a particular thread. That went with distributed moderation's arrival. One could theoretically have an automatic functionb to say who proposed and who agreed a moderation, but to do it yourself you'd have to agree it, then wait until it was passed, then move to moderate it too incluide the information that you agreed the moderation action, then wait for that to be passed, and so on ad infinitum. One could add after a post that one had agreed or disagreed an action, but that would be unwieldy, and the moderator changes thread died primarily because the action of moderation was so _dull_, as a general rule...
 
 
Smoothly
23:33 / 29.09.06
Yeah, obviously that's impractical and not worth the effort.
I'm not technical enough to know if it's possible, but I imagined that there might be a way for the fields that store the time of a mod proposal, the post, the reason stated, and the people involved to be pulled off the database and displayed like the membership list.
Clearly, doing it manually would be hopeless.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:43 / 29.09.06
Well, tom has access to all that information. If somebody was exercised enough, one could simply ask him. I imagine nobody would object to him disclosing that information, although a repeated pattern of requests followed by abusive behaviour might constitute trolling...
 
 
Smoothly
23:57 / 29.09.06
I could do that. Although weren't you putting together a summary of some of the proposals wrt moderator powers and accountability, Haus? Perhaps it could be folded into that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:00 / 30.09.06
Yeah - that could happen. I'll try to work on it this weekend.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:04 / 30.09.06
I've thought about this one quite a bit in the past. The reason not to let people just change their posts is because once they've contributed to the commons other people build on top of what they have said. If someone responds to something you say then they're investing work and effort. It's not fair on them if you then go and change your original post to make it say something dramatically different, or decide to go and delete what you said because you're not prepared to stand by it. That's why you have to get one moderator to agree (and that's all you have to get) - just to mean there's a bit more of a need to be careful.

There is a feature on Digg, however, which I do rather like and may try and get into the site at some point (particularly now Cal has said he's comfortable doing some more work on the site occasionally), and that's to help you deal with minor typos and errors - basically allowing you five minutes to edit your post after the original posting. That would seem like a sensible feature to be able to give people.

The more general question about moderation actions and whether they should be detailed so you know what's happened is one I'm REALLY unsure about and is probably one that I'd like to build in as an option that the community could choose between with some kind of voting. The reason for this is that it would dramatically change the community and not necessarily for the better. The distributed moderation system is there to make moderation less likely to cause fights by making sure it can't be viewed as a personal attack. Multiple people have to agree for the action to happen. And I'd like people to be able to vote with the conscience rather than because they're afraid of what they'd look like.

Having said that, I'd also maybe like to be more transparent about the kinds of changes that are happening around the board. Perhaps it would be sensible to do a few kinds of alerts around the place to start off with - ie. you proposed this action and it has been confirmed or rejected by the other moderators. Then you'd know whether to propose it again or go to the Policy or whatever. That would probably be useful, and I might try and get that happening.

I'm quite interested in that one, but a more risky possibility could be to put up an archive of moderation actions - with no names attached - made visible to either just moderators or for the whole board. That way people could talk about which kinds of actions they think are appropriate and which are not, and the scale of them and all that kind of thing. I'm a bit concerned that the whole thing would end up being a bit culture destroying and start a few fights, but it could increase the sense of transparency. Perhaps we could also add in a feature that allowed normal users in the community to retroactively roll-back moderation changes if a sufficient number felt it was appropriate.
 
 
grant
01:15 / 01.10.06
Perhaps it would be sensible to do a few kinds of alerts around the place to start off with - ie. you proposed this action and it has been confirmed or rejected by the other moderators. Then you'd know whether to propose it again or go to the Policy or whatever. That would probably be useful, and I might try and get that happening.

Is this basically a "proposal disagreed" flag? I'm trying to think of how anything else would be useful....

I'm quite interested in that one, but a more risky possibility could be to put up an archive of moderation actions - with no names attached - made visible to either just moderators or for the whole board.

Making it more like wiki, basically?

Perhaps we could also add in a feature that allowed normal users in the community to retroactively roll-back moderation changes if a sufficient number felt it was appropriate.

That would be very interesting -- I like it, because I'm fond of that "everyone a moderator" ideal (although, yes, I know it's not realistic for many things).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:32 / 01.10.06
I'm not sure if I've mentioned it in this thread or elsewhere but I've always liked the idea of everyone being able to propose simple moderation tasks on all posts and threads but only moderators get to vote on them.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:06 / 01.10.06
Can we have the 'skip' option on the moderation screen actually do something, please? It serves no purpose at all right now and I can foresee situations where moderators will be agreeing or disagreeing actions simply because they're sick of them sitting in their inbox forever. If I abstain from voting on an action I don't want to have it hanging over me until somebody else takes the decision or I give up and do it anyway.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
01:16 / 02.10.06
Can I have a copy sent to me of ALL the Policy mod' requests of the past two months, please, Tom? Plus, any changes that have been allowed.

I want to check something.

Thanks.
 
 
illmatic
07:24 / 02.10.06
PW, has it ever occurred to you that Tom's frequent absence from the board is because he has a life? That he's a busy person, and perhaps he doesn't have time to cater to the passing whims of every poster on his message board?

Probably not. As shown by your complete lack of respect for this forum, and the way in which you're happy to totally tie up people's time in unpicking your drivel. The amount of time people have spent on you, when they could have been making postive contributions elsewhere, is staggering.
 
  

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