BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Law Society Oppose Compulsory ID Cards.

 
 
Nobody's girl
11:55 / 07.04.04
PDF file of the Parliamentary Brief on ID cards from The Law Society.

Undeterred, Tony wants a bill on this in 4 weeks- Beeb article on this proposed Bill.

The BBC "iCan" website has some useful links for ID card activism- iCan website for ID Cards.
 
 
Jub
14:30 / 07.04.04
Does anyone know anyone who actually supports the ID card scheme? Apart from Blunkett and Blair, I don't know of anyone who actually wants it.

Apart from the 2000 odd people who said yes in the Public Consultation:
Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Mark Oaten said the Home Office claimed they received only 2,000 responses to the consultation. In fact there were more than 7,000 but the officials "decided to ignore" 5,000 submissions made through an anti-ID card website, he said.
 
 
■
17:48 / 07.04.04
This is bothering me lots. I have a real problem arguing against ID cards, as I have never heard a good argument FOR them! Can someone please try and summarise an instance in which ID cards might be useful, let alone compulsory? The best I've ever heard is 'nothing to hide nothing to fear', and that's not a reason, it's just stupid.
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
20:43 / 08.04.04
for evil ^_^
 
 
Whale... Whale... Fish!
12:11 / 09.04.04
Here are the arguments for:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ican/A2319176 (and against...)

I have a big problem with the nations fingerprints being held on computer, I think it will lead to our police force being even more lazy. I want them to actually earn their pay if they want to arrest me. :P
 
 
Joetheneophyte
08:11 / 11.04.04
I have no idea whether this is true or not but I am sure somebody can correct me

On another website I visit it said "BLUNKETT WANTS ID CARD TO COMBAT TERRORISM......YET THE SPANIARDS HAVE COMPULSORY ID CARDS AND THEY HAVE JUST SUFFERED THE WORST TERRORIST ATTACK IN THEIR HISTORY"


I have no idea whether Spaniards do have identity cards but if they do, IT IS OUR DUTY TO INFORM EVERYBODY WE KNOW ABOUT THE RIDICULOUSNESS OF BLUNKETTS PLANS


God I hate that man...........I'd like to take his guide dog away and lead David to a cliffy area
 
 
Joetheneophyte
08:19 / 11.04.04
Whatever your opinion on ID cards, you have got to ask yourself WHY Blair and Blunkett are so intent on their introduction

Every couple of months they come up with another excuse

"to stop illegal immigrants from abusing the welfare system"

It was only last week that a Blair Minister resigned as she knew about and did nothing to curtail illegal immigrants from Eastern Europe coming over on faked documentation.......so that one doens't exactly ring true


"To combat terrorism"

I am sure that with all the ID cards in the world, a determinded terrorist could easily bypass such measures and if the Spanish DO have compulsory ID cards, the recent tragic events in Madrid

PROVE UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT THE INTRODUCTION OF ID CARDS WILL HAVE NO IMPACT ON THE THREAT OF TERRORISM
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:14 / 11.04.04
you have got to ask yourself WHY Blair and Blunkett are so intent on their introduction

Something that has been bothering me too. We will be getting biometric passports soon, why aren't they acceptable for ID purposes? What more information can ID cards contain than these biometric passports? Penis length? DNA sequence? Favourite colour?
 
 
Whale... Whale... Fish!
15:59 / 11.04.04
Can't we all just tell David "crazy" Blunkett that they've been introduced and just hand him our library cards or something? I mean in all honesty he isn't gonna know the difference is he?

I really don't want one, although if I have to get one I'm gonna post it to David on my way out the country...
 
 
Jester
01:02 / 12.04.04
I hate the idea of ID cards...

I think the real reason is partly to do with all of the reasons listed... preventing terrorism, immigration, NHS fraud, etc etc etc. but it's really just a means of control.

The thing is, all these reasons may have more or less validity. But. Is it acceptable to introduce what is essentially mass tagging to prevent it? Sure, having the entire population's figerprints and retina scans on record might make it easier to catch people, but it's a big price to pay.

The most practical reason not to introduce it is that it will start an underclass of the cardless, those without access to the NHS, welfare, the benefits of citizenship, and possibly freedom to leave the country. In that underclass, you can bet your bottom dollar it will be easy for terrorists/evil foreigners that want to take our jobs to get lost.

And it will make it ever more difficult for people who have fallen through society's net (for example, homeless people) to integrate back into society if that want to.

And that's not even considering the spooky Big Brotherish ness of the whole enterprise.

Me and the bloke have already decided that trips to the US of A are suspended as long as the fingerprints to get into the country.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
07:43 / 12.04.04
that library card line was cruel but funny as fug

does anybody know whether Spain has IDD cards?

IF so and they are compulsory, it is one of our best argumenets AGAINST compulsory ID cards, seeing that they have just had such a terrible terrorist attack

I would love to see Blair squirm if that point was made to him on national TV


God I hate that man.....it is only that I hate Michael Howard even more that prevents me doing the unthinkable and voting Tory
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:09 / 12.04.04
Okay, based on 'Fish Like Whale's link.

Prevent illegal immigration: Lack of a card means illegal immigrants think they can arrive and disappear.
Prevent illegal working: They give employers a secure way of knowing if people are actually allowed to work. It’ll be easier to prosecute employers who break the law.


Illegal immigrations is, umm, illegal. If this argument worked then we shouldn't have any murders going on because murder is illegal. Your Romanian or Saudi isn't going to go "damn, better not risk my life trying to escape to Britain, they've got ID cards now!" Grey market work is also currently illegal, yet still the trucks will go to a certain place, ask for a certain number of people who get paid in cash. ID cards will not hinder this. Relaxing the rules for letting immigrants to become part of British society might.

Aid anti-terrorism measures: It’ll be harder for terrorists and organised crime rings to use false and multiple identities.

If ID Cards have any value organised crime will work out a way to forge them, they already have with the current passports, ID documents and currency. In some cases they get hold of the machines used to make whatever it is, in other cases they find people that work in the organisation that can be lent on.

And I don't think there's been evidence of terrorists using 'false and multiple identities', Sept. 11th were American citizens of Saudi origin, IIRC. We managed to track down and catch those people who it was thought were going to be attacking the airports over here a few weeks ago without ID Cards.

Using false documentation is a dangerous way to travel, far too much danger of drawing attention to oneself. ID cards won't help with this because they won't be on people coming in to this country and would other countries accept them as a form of ID? And if they would, wouldn't they have to connect to the UK database to check on someone? So could any offical, anywhere in the world, have access to the information on an ID Card about you?

Tackle identity theft: They’ll help protect against identity theft.

If anything they'll make it easier to steal someone's identity. When there's one central store which contains important information about you, that's all a crim will need to break in order to steal someone's identity. And if the database is considered impregnable, which is a myth the Government would want to circulate because they wouldn't want people to think their data was not secure, then when errors have occured then people will be less likely to accept that a mistake has happened.

Reduce benefit fraud and abuse of public services: They will ensure that public services are only used by those entitled.

This is where Government policy has changed. Before Madrid the Government were saying that the ID card would not need to be produced for access to health and public services. Now they're saying it will be. But the Government have no figures to show whether health tourism is a problem in this country. Adding another level of beaurocracy to publi services is unlikely to help anything. Benefit fraud is hard to detect and most benefits are now paid directly into people's bank accounts ID Cards aren't going to make much of a difference there. Once again, people have always found a way. The costs of the scheme will far outweight the money saved from stopping benefit fraud.

Enhance sense of community: ID cards will create a sense of shared citizenship and belonging.

Oh, sure. "I was going to kick that black/queer/woman's head in, but then I noticed they had an identity card and I thought, 'hey, they're part of my community man!'", So I stopped, helped them up and sent them on their way. How is an ID card going to ease tensions when David Blunkett wants to make guilt by association legal? Or reduce the burden of proof to convict people suspected of being involved with terrorism (none of those locked up for being considered terrorists have yet been white English)? And let's not forget that his initial reponse to the program with footage of police officers being openly racist was to complain about the BBC making it.
 
 
Whale... Whale... Fish!
12:19 / 12.04.04
Right so our beloved home secratary wants to ease ethnic tension and promote a sense of community by alienating a whole section of our society based on the fact that they are muslim?

I, once again, state the fact that he is a crazy.
 
 
Jester
12:35 / 12.04.04
Jesus, that article is fucked up!

David Blunkett really is the devil.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
19:01 / 12.04.04
He is the Devil



PROOF: he is always looking at his head to see if his horns are showing........he has a 'familiar' a black dog and worst and most inciminating of all

He is friends with Tony Blair
 
 
Char Aina
01:40 / 13.04.04
The costs of the scheme will far outweight the money saved from stopping benefit fraud.


man, the cost of buying everyone in britain a chomp bar would far outweigh the savings from stopping benefit fraud.
it has never been a big problem, just an easy one to pitch to the middle class worker.

"look at all the proles and foreigners! stealing YOUR money! all 6 pence a year of it!
no, maintaining a nuclear deterrent does not cost any money. no, the bombs are free. yes, and the subs.
LOOK! a single mother!"
 
 
Char Aina
01:45 / 13.04.04
from the article;
'Association' could cover not only meeting in person, but communicating via email or telephone, or even fundraising: sources close to the Home Secretary said, however, there would have to be evidence of some suspicious intent, rather than merely socialising.

so spamming al quaeda could become a very dangerous occupation...
unless you just want to be friends.
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:02 / 14.04.04
man, the cost of buying everyone in britain a chomp bar would far outweigh the savings from stopping benefit fraud.

LMAO

As a threadrotty sidenote, a friend of mine who worked at the employment service let me know an interesting thing about benefits funding. Every year upwards of 6 billion pounds of benefits go unclaimed. Bastards.
 
 
Tom Morris
13:57 / 18.04.04
How about the pragmatic problems. If we are going to have to carry this silly card for everything, it's going to be less secure. Now I take a stash of notes and the keys to my flat out on The Razzer. But after this, I'm going to have to take a card that will let someone defraud the NHS in my name, cross international borders, get a job and drive a car. Just imagine the fun someone could have if they nicked it! This is a security measure?

The Police have already sorted out their terrorism prevention methods: poke round the streets and nab anyone who "looks foriegn". Why do we need ID cards when we've got such high-quality policing already?
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:22 / 18.04.04
My pet theory is that the reasoning behind ID cards is not secret, just unstated.

As well as helping local and national government, the 'tag' can be used by the private sector as a reliable, unique identifier for customers. This will reduce business costs and increase profit margins, especially in banking and utilities.

The cleaner, more reliable private-sector databases will be useful to the security services. They will have all the information they might need without the financial cost or stress to the population that a visibly totalitarian state would generate.

So, ID cards will lead to more money and security. It's quite a good deal until one takes into account the side-effect -- that the population will have lost the privacy to organise and communicate dissent forever, no matter how just the cause. This is a really big thing, and this is why the government has to make up stories about why the cards are being introduced. We're unlikely to agree to it solely on the grounds that it will make our bosses richer and our police more likely to catch us doing something naughty so we have to be led to believe that the cards are needed to defeat the enemy within. It doesn't need to be a convincing story because Brits don't have much of a libertarian language with which to discuss the negative implications and most people everywhere are fairly illiterate when it comes to information science. "But I don't have anything to hide and anyway, they won't have the time to search everyone's data. It would take years to find out anything, even with computers" they say, merrily and unknowingly typing back-find queries into google ...

The Law Society is of a highly literate profession that knows a great deal about information storage and retrieval and, well, the law, by which the ID card would be justified and enforced. Its opinion on cards should be respected I reckon. Trouble is, we've got a government formed of ex-socialists who don't have a big issue with authoritarian solutions and who are, at the same time, keen to keep big business on their side. If the CBI or ACPO came out against cards one might see a re-appraisal. But will they? Will they fuck.
 
 
lostcause
22:23 / 18.04.04
ID cards will not achieve the government's stated aims for at least 20 years.

Any ID card system is inherently insecure for at least one generation. Why? Because for the first generation it is based on inherently insecure identification. I suspect to get your ID card you'll need to rock up to an office with 2 forms of ID, say your passport and drivers licence....both of which are *ahem* easily obtainable.

As someone else has pointed out, ID cards across Europe haven't made a huge amount of difference. Call me cynical, but this way at least the government appear to be doing something and the results (ie the failure of the measures) won't be clear until after the next election. As a handy by-product they are well on their way towards aping the US "justice" system, although I doubt even Blunkett would try to reintroduce the death penalty - yet.

Oh and as for solicitors; they will fight against anything that makes it more difficult for them to weaken the prosecution case against their clients. Most lawyers wouldn't put their faith in the Law Society. They just happen to be right...this time.
 
 
Axolotl
14:41 / 19.04.04
The Law Society is nothing but an organisation devoted to the welfare of it's members. It ensures that solicitors (which you will agree tend not to need much help making sure their interests are represented)aren't bothered by any nasty outside interference or government regulation that might upset the gravy train they are on. However in this particular argument I'll accept any and all help towards stopping this detestable project of David Blunkett's.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:33 / 19.04.04
Oh and as for solicitors; they will fight against anything that makes it more difficult for them to weaken the prosecution case against their clients.

Surely, there are the same number on the side of the defendant? And unless a criminal leaves his ID card lying on the victim's body, a card is not really evidence, is it?
 
 
lostcause
09:00 / 20.04.04
Surely, there are the same number on the side of the defendant? And unless a criminal leaves his ID card lying on the victim's body, a card is not really evidence, is it?

Um, I think you've misunderstood me. Solicitors (and by this I mean defence solicitors) have the option half way through a trial to ask for the case to be dismissed because the prosecution hasn't made out a plausible case.

The introduction of compulsorary ID cards will lead to them being used to register where you are at any given point in time in the same way a debit card or credit card can be.

I was (slightly cynically) suggesting that if you need your ID card to acess certain services it will make it more difficult for your solictor to argue that you weren't somewhere your ID card says you were. And who is the jury likely to believe anyway, the ID card reader or you? It'll foster laziness.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:20 / 20.04.04
Blunkett is a typically New Labour devil- when they made him Home Secretary, he gave the impression of being all fluffy and nice for the first couple of months.

Then you started missing Jack Straw. And when that happens, something is wrong.
 
 
pornotaxi
10:23 / 27.04.04
The draft bill (PDF) is out, then..

..and The Register has done a good job of summing up the current state of play.

it looks more sinister as time goes on. on various threads here, europeans outwith the uk have expressed little trouble with implementation of id cards, yet somehow i intuit that these governments are just a tad more trustworthy over time than their uk counterparts..

..if trustworthy government isn't a complete oxymoron, that is.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:19 / 27.04.04
Then you started missing Jack Straw. And when that happens, something is wrong.

I truly resent the fact that I've been placed in a position where I'm on Straw's side.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:30 / 23.07.04
According to an email I deleted too hastily, the Home Office Select Committee on ID Cards will be releasing their report on ID Cards on July 30th. I don't know how much we're supposed to be reading into the fact they are releasing this one week after Parliament goes on it's summer holiday, one might wonder if they're releasing it too late for the sceptical Opposition to make a fuss in the Commons and hoping that everybody's forgotten it by the time Parliament reconvenes in the Autumn. I also don't know whether it's important that although there will be a statement for the press there won't be a press conference for it. Maybe the members of the committee want to leave as soon as possible to get down to the seaside.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:23 / 29.07.04
Oooh, follow up to that. MPs attack Blunkett ID card plan. 'improperly costed, poorly thought out, secretive, lacking in clarity, alarm at function creep, danger of big business being allowed access to database...'
 
 
Whale... Whale... Fish!
10:58 / 29.07.04
Similar story from the BBC.

I really hope this falls on its arse. I can't see any of the benefits that ID cards will bring.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:38 / 29.07.04
Home Affairs Committee
News Release

EMBARGOED: NOT FOR PUBLICATION OR BROADCAST UNTIL 00.01 on Friday 30 July 2004

COMMITTEE BACKS ID CARDS BUT CRITICISES IMPLEMENTATION AND PROPOSED DRAFT LEGISLATION

A wide-ranging report published today by the Home Affairs Select Committee gives broad backing for Government plans to introduce identity cards but warns of a number of key problems that must be tackled to ensure the scheme's success.

The Committee concludes that the ID card scheme should go ahead and says it can make a real and important contribution to the fight against organised crime and terrorism by disrupting the use of multiple identities, identity fraud and related crimes like money laundering. An ID card scheme, accompanied by wider enforcement measures, could play a significant role in helping to reduce illegal working and immigration.

The report notes it would be easier to establish entitlement to public services and to prevent abuse and says the scheme has the potential to help with joined up government.

Civil liberties' objections to the scheme were carefully considered. Whilst recognizing that it would change the relationship between citizen and state, the report concludes that identity cards should not be ruled out on grounds of principle alone: the test should be whether the costs are proportionate to the benefits. International experience indicates that compulsory and voluntary ID cards and population registers operate successfully in other countries. The Committee concludes that the Government has made a convincing case for proceeding with the introduction of identity cards.

However, the Committee is concerned about the lack of clarity over the scheme's scope and practical operation: the report warns that key elements in the proposal are poorly thought out and that the draft Bill goes far wider than is necessary to introduce a simple system to establish and demonstrate identity.

It is unclear how the card and the register will work in practice. The Government should clarify the number, type and costs of card readers and supporting infrastructure required by the scheme. It should also be clear about the number and level of checks on card use that it anticipates.

Stressing that the detailed design of the ID card and the national identity register is critical to its successful operation, the Committee calls for the current proposals to be open to wider scrutiny by technical experts and the public. Concerns were also raised about commercial confidentiality and the current IT procurement process with MPs concluding that more openness is needed.

The report expresses concerns about the proliferation of Government databases and says that an opportunity for joined up Government is being missed. It notes the significant overlap between the General Register Office's proposal for a UK population register-the Citizen Information Project-the proposed identity cards database and other databases. MPs believe that there should not be a central database holding all individual information, but the identity card should enable access to all Government databases.

The Committee makes a number of recommendations to strengthen the draft Identity Card Bill, including a clear statutory aim for the ID card scheme, a powerful and independent regulator, and new primary legislation before a compulsory scheme is introduced.

Commenting on the report Committee Chairman Rt Hon John Denham MP said:
"The Government's ID card scheme can help in the fight against terrorism, serious crime, illegal immigration and abuse of public services. It could also help the development of joined up government. The potential benefits justify its introduction.

"The Government has only one chance to get it right: whether public support continues will depend on how the scheme works in practice, and its impact on everyday life.

"This ID card scheme should go ahead but the Government must take serious note of the criticism we make of the way the plan is being developed.

"A successful scheme depends on whether the cards and the national register are used and checked effectively. We need more clarity on how the card and the register will work in practice. We don't know how many card readers and biometric readers will be needed or paid for, or how may times each card will be checked and whether that check will be visual, card reader or biometric.

"The Home Office has allowed commercial sensitivities to stand in the way of proper technical and public scrutiny of the practical details of the scheme. Too many major IT projects have failed in the past and the Government must adopt an open procurement process. At the same time, the proliferation of Government databases must be tackled.

"There is a golden opportunity for joined-up Government here, and a real risk that the opportunity will be missed. An ID card scheme could play a useful role in improving the co-ordination of access to public services. But the Government has not yet put forward clear proposals to do so.

"The draft Bill must be strengthened, and clear statutory limits placed on the use of the national identity register.. The Bill creates, for example, a statutory national fingerprint register. This is a major step to take without any legal aim or purpose."


NOTES TO EDITORS:

1. The report is the result of a 9 month inquiry into all features of identity cards including the practical aspects of the Government's proposals and its draft Bill. The Committee looked at: the practical issues involved in the ID database and biometric identifiers; the security and integrity of the proposed system; the operational use of ID cards in establishing identity, accessing public services, and tackling illegal migration, crime, and terrorism; issues to be addressed in the longer-term, including compulsion; and the estimated cost of the system.
2. Further information about the inquiry along with evidence transcripts are available on the Committee's website: www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/home_affairs_committee.cfm
3. The report's title is Identity Cards and will be published as the Committee's Fourth Report, Session 2003-04 (HC 130). The report will be available on the Committee's website from 1530 on Friday 30 July.
4. Committee Membership is as follows: Chairman: Rt Hon John Denham MP, Janet Anderson MP, Mr David Cameron MP, Mr James Clappison MP, Mrs Claire Curtis-Thomas MP, Mrs Janet Dean MP, Mr Gwyn Prosser MP, Bob Russell MP, Mr Marsha Singh MP, Mr John Taylor MP, David Winnick MP
5. Media Enquiries / bids: Adèle Brown, 020 7219 0724
6. Press Notice No. 34, Session 2003-04
 
 
A fall of geckos
14:14 / 29.07.04
I was at the UK Big Brother Awards - for governmental and private-sector abusers of privacy last night. It was a free event organised by Privacy International and officiated by Mark Thomas, at the London School of Economics. There's some footage here

Mark Thomas talked at some length about the bill to introduce compulsory ID cards, but warned about a project currently running - The Citizen Information Project that's collating and share huge amounts of data on the entire population. He was under the impression that if the ID card bill is shot down, ID Cards will still be brought in through the back door as part of this.

There's also a group who've been set up to protest/organise responses to the ID card issue, who were there last night - the No 2 ID card group.
 
  
Add Your Reply