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Outing Your Parents

 
 
Sleepsix
22:31 / 05.04.04
"Outing" as in "throwing them the fuck out of your apartment for being homophobic bigots."

I outed mine awhile back and haven't had any contact with 'em for some time now.

I don't need any tips on reconciliation; I've been forgiving their lunacy my entire life and that's what the problem was, thank you very much. It's their turn now.

And I'm coping well; I'm still pissed off when I think about them, but I've learned that not thinking about them isn't nearly as difficult as I thought it'd be.

Right now, I'm guessing the odds are fifty-fifty that I won't hear from my dad ever again.

Advice? Anecdotes? Albatross?
 
 
Tom Coates
07:16 / 06.04.04
I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation before at some point - and I'm pretty sure we moved it into the Conversation because it was about anecdotes and personal experiences rather than about theory, philosophy or identity politics.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:02 / 06.04.04
What do you need advice on? What to do if you hear from your dad? What to do if you don't hear from him?
 
 
Jub
08:23 / 06.04.04
sleepsix - it seems to me like you want a relationship with them - but found it so difficult that you couldn't do it anymore. That's sad.

If you really don't think you can work it out with them for whatever reason - that's sad.

What's up - are you looking for advice from people who have "outed their parents" and got over it - as you seem to want to be able to; or advice from people who got over their problems and had a relationship of sorts with their folks? Either way, I hope things get better for you.
 
 
Ninjas make great pets
08:25 / 06.04.04
I had to loose the plot with my parents over them using us (kids) in their pretty war against each other.. now that was such fun..

they live in separate countries now.. *calmed sigh*

so at least the battles are every couple a months now rather than every other day
 
 
Sleepsix
17:35 / 06.04.04
Deva, I've been telling myself for awhile that I don't need anybody's advice. I suppose I was just wondering if anybody thought I was kidding myself and that I needed massive psychological intervention.

If my parents contact me, my reaction will depend on them. I've finally learned that arguing with brick walls is counterproductive; they're both perfectly capable of reading a book that challenges their views. So, if they're not calling to admit they're completely wrong, all they'll hear is "Go back to your cave, you fucking Neanderthals" and the sound of the receiver being slammed down.

And if they don't contact me, I'll continue to enjoy my vacation from their condescending lectures. They honestly seem to think that I'm just a teenager temporarily rebelling against my faith--and I'm thirty.

So, my question is: Do I sound like someone who's dealing with anger effectively, or someone who's in denial about an ongoing psychological trauma?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:45 / 06.04.04
It's hard to say. But as everyone else seems reticent about asking I will: Are you gay? Or do you have close gay friends? Because I think those are the factors that play in judgement over this issue.

On the other hand, have you got relatives or friends of the family that can be used as intermediaries if there is some crisis that necessitates contact?
 
 
Sleepsix
17:59 / 06.04.04
Jub, I'd like a bit of both types of advice. I was also wondering if this "symbolic parricide" is common. There seems to be a stigma against doing this sort of thing; queer rights agitators are supposed to be the ejectees, not the ejectors. Our greater sense of tolerance is supposed to enable us to sit there and politely listen when we're told that gays are no different than sheep-fuckers. Plus, kicking out Christians automatically gives them that holier-than-thou martyr complex.

thumbninja, sorry about your folks. Sounds like they're not quite horrible enough to necessitate total avoidance.
 
 
Sleepsix
18:26 / 06.04.04
Or Ldy f t Flwrs, yes, I've got a backup family member in storage I can rely upon.

And, no, I'm not gay, but I do have a few one or two gay friends. Which lessens the impact considerably, I admit.

That sounds terrible, doesn't it? Philip Jose Farmer said that every anti-Semitic remark was always followed by "...but I had many Jewish friends."
 
 
gornorft
12:11 / 07.04.04
Yep. Parents don't necessarily not suck. There is no law written in natural selection that states that thou shalt always agree with ones parents and live happily ever after. I'm like you, I'll be surprised if I ever speak to my parents again. They pissed me off, as is their right I guess. It is also, therefore, my right to choose to treat them with the ignore they deserve.

Parents are just people and, let's face it, most people are nasty things we don't need to include in our lives - if that weren't the case we'd all have about 2 million friends each and who could keep track of that?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:24 / 07.04.04
Do I sound like someone who's dealing with anger effectively, or someone who's in denial about an ongoing psychological trauma?

I'd say you're in denial but then I'd say anyone who throws their parents out of their lives and feels okay about it is in denial no matter how hated they are. Let's face it, these people brought you up for years and now you don't feel like you can have them around because they're behaving so awfully, to an extent that's a betrayal of your own upbringing, that's a rejection of your past and you're saying consciously that you might not want them back ever. I just don't think this has hit you yet, perhaps you're not ready for it or maybe subconsciously you don't feel that it's permanent at all but eventually this is bound to come back and bite at you either way and I mean in your own head, not in angry parents.
 
 
Char Aina
13:21 / 07.04.04
just to be clear, are you suggesting that there is no situation in which telling your parents they are not welcome is the correct course of action?

i'd agree that it is a shame to lose a connection like that; one of them had you inside her for the better part of a year and they probably paid for most of your early life; but i wouldnt always agree that you should do anything to retain that bond.

if my parents were homophobes, i dont know what i would do.
i dont like my dads views on race occasionally, but he's not actually a full blown racist(just misguided...), meaning i have never had to deal with the issue of excommunication.

i do find it strange, sleepsix, that you have chosen to make this the battleground. i realise that whites can fight for civil rights, men can be feminists, and straights can stick up for the homo/bi/trans/sorryifileftyououts. i also realise that every time someone lets it pass unmentioned they are giving their tacit support to the homophobia. i just wonder why you have gone to war over something that is not a personal issue; one that perhaps could have been stepped around for the benefit of all.

if this is tennage rebellion come late, i'd suggest you pick your battles more wisely.

if this i something you could not conscienably live with, then that i guess is different. you might want to examine why you cant accept their right to choose their beliefs and still remain friends.


oh, and for all that you are teaching them a valuable lesson that they will understand in time, you are not teaching them one that they will be able to use. they will be dead shortly after they realise that they lost a son through their doctrine, and dead people are not very homophobic anyway.
again, you might want to examine why you are martyring your relationship with your family to save no one from any harm.

(this all assumes that they undrstand exactly why you are slamming the phone down, and dont just assume that you are on drugs, or into some new cult... "homosexuals? i've heard they take people in, give them drugs, and brainwash them. apparently they tell them to sever all ties with their parents too. yeah, i read it in the daily mail.")


feel free to discard this advice, just remember to bag it and bin it.
 
 
Ex
13:34 / 07.04.04
By contrast, I think it's very impressive that you've chosen to take a stand on this when it doesn't directly concern your own sexuality.
Otherwise, that would leave les/bi/gay people - and by extension, any minority - to fight their own battles/parents.

again, you might want to examine why you are martyring your relationship with your family to save no one from any harm.

Leaving aside any wider picture, I assume that Sleepsix is finding their homophobia to be "harm". To him.
 
 
Char Aina
13:52 / 07.04.04
i guessed so too.

but then that seems to render academic all ideas of fighting other peoples battles.

if he is fighting for the rights of the oppressed*, then he is going to be unsuccesful(IMHO) in affecting useful change. people over fifty rarely change their mind on anything important.
i suspect there is a less selfless motivation behind these actions. the idea of removing a harmful presence form the home could be some of that motivation.

i guess what i am getting at is that it hurts one greatly to have no parental units, and if the gain from such a severance is not much greater than such a loss, why bother?





*
dont get me wrong, i went to bat at school on many occasions for the gay kids, imagined or otherwise. that was more through being friends with a guy who copped all the flack, though.
i am a supporter of cause not my own, and i am glad to be. as you say, if it were left to only the minority being attacked... well, its pretty obvious a minority is going to be outnumbered most times.
i am suggesting that as you cannot win every battle against injustice, you invest your big guns(like disowning your parents) for the issues where doing so will make a difference.
 
 
Char Aina
13:55 / 07.04.04
Leaving aside any wider picture

can we come back to it though? how much wider?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:14 / 07.04.04
A friend of mine, who had a bust-up with his folks because they shopped him to the secret police as a dissident, has just got to the point in life where he's wondering whether he should get back in touch with his parents for the sake of his children. The kids are old enough to understand the reason for the split - well, you would, wouldn't you? - but they're also conscious that other kids have grandparents. So... I recognise that the whole issue of kids is more vexed in this situation, and that the emotional parallels are not exact, but I suppose it's worth considering the possibility that at some point there may be a reason why you want to be in touch and it will help if you haven't severed all contact - however much you fight if you are in contact.
 
 
Ex
14:41 / 07.04.04
i suspect there is a less selfless motivation behind these actions. the idea of removing a harmful presence form the home could be some of that motivation.

Yes, that's what I thought, too. And I think sie's perfectly entitled to do it for this reason. I'm not getting from my reading that sie's doing it for the rights of the oppressed, or that the action must have positive causal effects on the parents for sie to feel justified.
To me (and apologies if I'm misreading you, Sleepsix), it reads like a personal intergenerational dispute, and an attempt to find some kind of personal peace. It makes it a little more complex that it's based on a wider issue, rather than just where to put the new garden decking or whether pop music was better in my day. But it's not necessarily a sacrifice made selflessly for a principle (and on the understanding that the parents will learn and that other people will benefit).

It was also what I meant by leaving out the 'wider picture' - by 'wider' I meant the possibility that someone outside these trangle of people might benefit. It is, as you say, possible that the parents will never change their mind about homosexuality. There's a slim chance that they might pause for thought, and the lives of others with whom they interract might be improved.

But overall, I'm not sure that matters. And I'm not sure that he's presented his main motivation as being selfless and aiming at an end goal (apart from ending a source of pain). If he has then yes, he may be misguided, although I still appreciate it.

, you invest your big guns(like disowning your parents) for the issues where doing so will make a difference.

Do people usually sever contact with their parents in order to make them do things? The only cases I know are ones where contact with the parent was harmful or deeply distressing. They usually had something to do with sexual orientation or gender, but it was ultimately about self-preservation rather than trying to cudgel the parents through emotional pain into some course of action. I can see it's a tricky distinction. But as you observe, it would be a very unreliable and painful-to-use big gun.
 
 
Char Aina
15:00 / 07.04.04
i'll admit, on re-reading it does sound more like i am rebutting something he isnt arguing than i at first thoght...

sorry if i am making this any harder, sleepsix.
 
 
Char Aina
15:06 / 07.04.04
They usually had something to do with sexual orientation or gender, but it was ultimately about self-preservation rather than trying to cudgel the parents through emotional pain into some course of action.

sometimes there can also be an elemnt of "that'll show them" in this kind of move, in my experience. what it'll show them in reality and in one's plan are not usually the same thing, i find.
 
 
Sleepsix
20:39 / 07.04.04
Bit pressed for time today, so I can't answer every reply individually...

First off, and I probably left this out to simplify matters and make myself look a little better, is the fact that homosexuality wasn't the only issue we were arguing over; it was just the straw that broke the cassowary's back. (I used to be a bit of a low-key homophobe myself, and I had a few snide comments to atone for.) The fact that their God tortures people for all eternity was another issue:

Dad: God doesn't send people to Hell. People send themselves to Hell.
Sleepsix: That's not what the Bible says. Scripture says God will send people to the torturers.
Dad: That's a metaphor.
Sleepsix: There's absolutely no textual evidence to support that interpretation, only wishful thinking. You might as well claim that a woman screaming, "No, no, please don't rape me" is metaphorically saying, "Yes, yes, give it to me baby, harder, harder."
Dad: No, it's clearly a metaphor.
Sleepsix: Uh-huh. Cult Leader Bob says the world will end on Tuesday. Tuesday comes and goes. Since Cult Leader Bob never makes a mistake, he must have been speaking metaphorically.
Dad: You just don't understand.

Second, I'd love to take my parents back, but I just can't stomach this intellectual abuse ("You don't agree with us, therefore something is wrong with you") any damn longer. I love 'em both, but if I don't love myself enough to protect myself from this endless barrage of insinuation and circular logic, I'm going to die the death of a thousand papercuts. Part of loving someone involves genuine listening, and I ain't been gettin' none o' that particular pie.

Thanks for the commentary and letting me vent; feeling much better now. Huggles all around.
 
 
mus
20:56 / 07.04.04
My parents, particularly my paternal zombie, are very much like sleepsix's. They actually feel shame that they failed to indoctrinate me into possessing the same ideological positions as them, which is depressing or amusing, depending on my current mood.

If neither party would benefit from resuming communication then there is little point in doing so.
 
 
Cailín
02:48 / 08.04.04
Your parents raise you, and if things go relatively well, you end up a reasonably well-rounded, loving person. The funny thing is, you don't really get to choose who you love, life does the picking for you. I'm meaning platonically, and this is going somewhere, I swear.
One of my best friends is gay. I am not. I love her, and I hope she'll be there for all the important things in my life - my wedding, the births of my children, a drink after a particularly bad Tuesday afternoon at work. I shudder, however, to ponder the behaviour of my family when this wonderful soul should show up at my life's events with her girlfriend. My dad is quietly homophobic, he makes cracks about gays, mostly in the privacy of his own home, and looks slightly nauseous when he sees two men holding hands. My mom is fence-sitting: being gay is tolerable, so long as no one can tell, but having children when you're gay is just wrong in her opinion, and she usually feels free to voice her opinion. Bearing in mind, my friend's mom is also gay, which is how I found out that my mom is completely against gay parenthood. I know my folks are products of their generation and environment, but damn I wish they'd shut the hell up. The way I see it, if your folks are being completely rigid, and probably will never accept people of a certain colour/creed/orientation/faith/whatever, they put you in the position of having to choose between the people who respect you and your opinions and, well, the people you've been charged with respecting, regardless of their behaviours, by a fluke of parentage. I'm rambling here.
Anecdote: The last time I saw my uncle we had a huge blow-up about the God vs. Gays issue (I'm in Toronto, and of course gay marriage has become legal here recently, so that spurred the debate). That was in October, and we haven't spoken since, which isn't entirely unusual, but I'm not sure he'll ever speak to me again. No great loss, because I don't need him to create tension with people I care about, when they would never persecute him for being himself.
I can see how cutting out the people who raised you must be tough. You have to do what feels right to you. If you quietly sat by and let your dad's opinion go unchallenged, you'd be doing a huge diservice to yourself, and probably to your gay friends, too. It's a shame it had to go so far, but if you feel okay about it and you're willing to just let the chips fall where they may, I congratulate you on your resolve. I only think you'd be dealing with this badly if you had immediately issued an illegitimate apology, just to keep the peace.
 
 
40%
11:21 / 09.04.04
I'm tempted to say that what your parents think about homosexuality is really none of your business. Depends whether they were getting in your face about it. However, from reading the exchange you described between you and your Dad, it sounds like you're the one who's being aggressive. At the end of the day, they don't owe it to you to respect your intellect, or anything else about your life. If you want their respect, you have to earn it like anyone else. If you're not that bothered, just let it go. But standing on your right as the child to be loved/respected/appreciated by your parents, because that's what good parents should do, won't get you anywhere.
 
 
40%
11:39 / 09.04.04
(And I should know)
 
 
HCE
15:56 / 09.04.04
If your folks get hit by a drunk driver you'll be sorry you stopped speaking to them. It's different if your parents molested, beat, or otherwise abused you. I'm not saying there's a distinct line East of which one is merely small-minded and clumsy and West of which one is an abuser, but nothing you've described sounds worth the fuss.

Even if your parents are people you strongly dislike, they are not aliens. You are related to them in many ways and the value of what you can learn about yourself from them is inestimable. I'm not saying you have to hang out with them on a daily basis, but how about a restrained and civil postcard for birthdays and holidays? If seeing them makes you feel lousy, then see them less. It's the extremity of your reaction that's puzzling.

Whatever you decide to do, I hope things work out for you.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:01 / 09.04.04
You're clearly a big boy now and, if there's only grief for you to be had from interacting with your folks, then you might be best to just let it go. I had legendary rages and fall outs with my folks in the past but somehow we all rub along reasonably well now. I don't see much of them but when I do, I expect to be treated with respect, as do they. Thing is, I knew they loved me whatever and would never shut their door to me under any circumstances. Doesn't sound like you're sure of the same.

They have a whole different view of the world from me, which isn't surprisingly since they've led very different lives. They think people who take drugs should be in gaol. My teetotal father thinks people who drink will end up in the gutter, decorating cardboard boxes with soiled beer mats.

They have little exposure to people from other races and use objectionable language. I protest it when I hear it but I don't think they are bad people. They can and do learn but it takes forever. I also have to remember that I learned my liberal attitudes at their knees, so they must have good hearts. Sounds like you have a very different experience and have radically different attitudes from your folks'.

The Xoc progenitors would probably far prefer me to be straight but they are much happier spending time with me and Ganesh than with either of my hetero brothers-in-law. Both are big on letting people make their own mistakes / choices as long as they're prepared to live with the consequences and not whine about it when they fuck up.

We had long spells of not speaking but the furious shouting and screaming fits were history by my twenties. If I had still been in a whirlwind of rage when we met by the time I was your age, I too would be looking for a break from it. That would mean looking at what both sides of the conflict were contributing to it and at what behaviours might realistically change on either sides.

I think I changed a little and so did they, through the years. Maybe your folks will be prepared to make some change but, if not, you've only got this one life to lead and only you can judge whether a parentless life would be easier all round.
 
  
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