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Damn those bodily functions!

 
 
pythagore
23:22 / 04.04.04
I have, for many years, loathed my own body. Not because I'm not satisfied with its form and shape - I'm actually quite fond of it - but because I have to adhere to its rules and regulations. When I am hungry, I need to eat. When I am thirsty, I need to drink. When I need to go the bathroom I have to, unless I want to end up in a quite embarrassing situation. When I am tired I need to sleep in order to avoid collapse.

The body is your temple, it has been said - something that I have always opposed. The body is not only our temple, it is also our prison. If we do not do as it tells us the physical problems we will end up with will not only affect the way our body functions, but how our mind functions as well. Mind does not only affect matter, matter affects the mind right back.

Even the Ippissimus, high on his throne in Kether, have to adhere to his body's cravings in order to stop this decay. Even though SHe will be completely free of mental and moral chains, the body will still be the prison that will hold hir back. Despite finding hir True Will the body will always be able to impose on this Will, holding it back.

Maybe this is the reason that some claims that in order to rise above the Abyss one must die. Maybe there is more to the symbolism that in order to reach the Supernals, the three Sephira that lies beyond Da'ath, and become a Magister Templi the magician must sacrifice all hir blood in the Cup of Babalon, and burn away hir body for the ashes to be laid to rest beneath the City of Pyramids.

The Black Brothers, on the other hand, cling to the prison of their Egos' - their individuality and their bodies. It is said that they are doomed to rot in the Abyss until the end of time - maybe the decay of age, the slow but unforgiving passing of time and the effect that has on the body, is the truth behind this symbolism. I am what I am, they claim, because they fear death. They are unable to let go of everything they are, because they cannot bear the thought of losing their physical self as little as they can bear the thought of losing their Egos.

Maybe that is one of the reasons why Aiwazz declared:

Strive ever to more! and if thou art truly mine -- and doubt it not, an if thou art ever joyous! -- death is the crown of all.Liber AL vel Legis, II:72

or

Fear not at all; fear neither men nor Fates, nor gods, nor anything. Money fear not, nor laughter of the folk folly, nor any other power in heaven or upon the earth or under the earth. Nu is your refuge as Hadit your light; and I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms.Liber AL vel Legis, III:17

I've never really liked this idea, but the more I think about it the more logical I find it.
 
 
_Boboss
10:59 / 05.04.04
call your body a prison if you enjoy being a prisoner.

waste time railing against it if you enjoy wasting time.

buy into stupid body/mind oppositions if you want to make a really lousy magician.
 
 
rising and revolving
11:27 / 05.04.04
Pffft. Indian Yogis go without food or drink - or so they claim, in any case. I read something recently (in the Fortean Times, mind) about a guy who was kept under observation for 10 days in an Indian hospital, who neither drank, ate, nor excreted.

So, maybe the body is only a prison if you so view it?
 
 
illmatic
11:36 / 05.04.04
You might find this thread of interest. Probably me favourite of all the ones I've started on here.

I think the Body is absolutly key to magickal pracice and have a strong dislike to gnostic paths which drive a big wedge between the mind and body. I'm more interested in reconnecting with mine and enjoying it while it lasts. It'll wither age, and die, and perhaps me with it - perhaps it's not the totality of me but I am determined to enjoy it for now. I don't think I'm here because of some big mistake anyhow. Life, lived through this body, has purpose and meaning.

Cheers for the Liber Al quotes though, reminds me how much I love it. Best thing "he" ever wrote.

Here's some quote back at ya:

I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.

But ecstasy be thine and joy of earth: ever To me! To me!

Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.

... lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this

Now think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain; but in beds of purple, caressed by magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them; there shall ye find them. Ye shall see them at rule, at victorious armies, at all the joy; and there shall be in them a joy a million times greater than this.


All seem to suggest me taking great delight in the body and life, while we're hear while acknowledging it's transient nature. This life is the one that's important, it's not a rehearsal. Enjoy in it while it last. In my more Thelemic moments I can see this as the play of Nuit and Haidt, "divided for loves sake, for the chance of union".
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:11 / 05.04.04
Thing is, most of them occult truths you're reeling out are pretty much steeped in the 19th century ceremonial magic worldview, which I think does tend to suffer from a peculiarly Victorian fear, disgust and hatred of the body. "Awful messy thing that leaks from the most disgraceful places, well it just isn't cricket is it? How can I possibly become a spiritual being when I'm lumbered with such a dirty disfunctional vehicle". If you buy into this wholesale and don't bother questioning whether, y'know, those guys who wrote that stuff might have been way off the mark and as much a product of their time and place in history as anyone else, then chances re you're going to spend a lot of time worrying about nowt.

If you didn't have the "prison" of the body, you would be unable to eat, drink, smoke, shag, dance, laugh, run, jump, fly kites, sing, play music, fight, paint, write, sculpt, and all of the other activities that require the physical form to accomplish. These activities are divine. We feed and serve the Gods and Spirits by allowing them to partake of the above activities through us, that's what we can offer them, that's what we can do that they can't, it's what the Spirits crave. Being able to do this physical stuff is the most precious and valuable gift you could ever receive. You're alive for fucks sake. You have a finite number of years to enjoy it. Makes no sense to me to squander that time bemoaning the various perceived limitations of the body - you'll have plenty of time to be a creature of pure spirit when you no longer have a body, or not as the case may be. Try meditating on the mysteries of the Mexican Day of the Dead and see what comes up from it.

"Life, Copulation and Death. That's all the facts when you get to brass tacks" - Marvin Gaye quoting from TS Eliot, in the liner notes of the 'Lets Get It On' LP.
 
 
illmatic
12:45 / 05.04.04
Great post, GL. To reiterate - You're alive. It wasn't a error, a mistake or a fall. It's your one shot at the goal.

Buddhist teachings state that being receving a human re-birth is one of the most precious things that there is - it's likened to a turtle the surfaces from the depths of the ocean once every hundred years. (To complete the analogy, encountering the Buddhist dharma is said to be the equivalent of that turtle putting it's head through a golden ring floating on the surface of the ocean). I don't know about you but I get a strong sense of delight in existence from this and other Buddhist imagery, as I do from Crowley's language - even "I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms" - doesn't sound like a body negating image to me.
 
 
reFLUX
19:34 / 05.04.04
your body is a part of who/what you are. without it you are not yourself.
 
 
pythagore
22:08 / 05.04.04
Don't get me wrong - I am talking about the higher levels of magickal "enlightenment" here, not that I am planning or seeing any value in killing myself. I am, more or less, just taking the symbolism of the Abyss and The City of Pyramids as far as it can go. Neither to do I worry very much about it - I have just been a strong believer that enlightenment, as seen through the eyes of Crowley et. al., can be reached without dying. But now I am not so sure.

I am aware of the usefulness of the body - after all, all those wonderful ways of reaching Gnosis (fucking, drug-use, death-postures, Asana, samahadi etc. etc.) are not all done on the mental level. A lot of it comes from using the body and applying various technices to reaching higher planes of consciousness.

This standpoint has nothing to do with any Victorian disgust for the body - at least not for me. The reason why I am not very fond of it at times is because I feel it is controlling me more than I am controlling it. I know that Yogis have mastered their bodies to an extreme degree, but I also believe that sooner or later the body will have certain needs that must be met. If the Magister Templi is supposed to be completely free of all restrains, then the body must also be "transcended".

reFLUX had a point when he said that your body is a part of who/what you are. without it you are not yourself. If the Ego is stuck in the body you can never go beyond who you are with it. If the Ego is supposed to be destroyed in the depths of the Abyss, doesn't the body need to be destroyed with it?

But you all make good points and I am very thankful for your replies. I have not completely adopted this theory, or decided if it is useful or not. I am only saying that it seems logical, at least through a more classic magickal view.
 
 
karen eliot
22:36 / 05.04.04
I would have to side with Austin Spare's take on this question. He makes it clear that this moment of incarnation in flesh is the moment of supreme magical power. The idea that the body is an impediment to magickal attainment is nonsense, in fact without the manifested body no magickal practice would be possible in the first place.
 
 
---
23:16 / 05.04.04
The way i see it the further you get in magic the more secrets you unlock about your body and how it functions, so i don't think that you'll see your body as a prison so much if you get further with whatever your doing.

If you want to take the Buddhist or Gnostic view of it i suppose you could always side with the body as a prison idea, but who know's for sure wether or not the Buddha even saw the body as a prison? Maybe he did, but i'm sure that the more we learn and the closer to the abyss any of us get, the more we'll find those answers about the body and the things it 'needs'.

Maybe it's all in the mind and crossing the abyss frees a huge part of the mind from the physicality it was once submerged in, or possibly another part of the brain gets activated. I find it impossible to believe that an adept who'd just crossed the abyss would only have 10% of hir brain functioning and the other 90% not being used, so maybe some answers lie in that area.
 
 
--
23:20 / 05.04.04
I tend to view my body as a curse, but only because of my nearly constant physical ailments/bodily pains/gastrointestinal issues. Why my mind got stuck with this body I still have no clue.
 
 
pythagore
23:32 / 05.04.04
Maybe it's all in the mind and crossing the abyss frees a huge part of the mind from the physicality it was once submerged in, or possibly another part of the brain gets activated.

Sounds reasonable enough. Of course, all of this is pure speculation - it is hard to imagine how an adept who has crossed the Abyss would be like, or how it would function.
 
 
pythagore
23:55 / 05.04.04
Zen - btw, is it ok if I quote you on my blog?
 
 
---
00:49 / 06.04.04
Yeah thats fine! There's no need to ask if you want to do it again for me just do it whenever.
 
 
Z. deScathach
02:56 / 06.04.04
Pythagore: Neither to do I worry very much about it - I have just been a strong believer that enlightenment, as seen through the eyes of Crowley et. al., can be reached without dying. But now I am not so sure.

The thing is, who's to say what enlightemment IS. You seem to be viewing enlightenment as absense of desire, (a common viewpoint), and as the attainment of total freedom. What I would question is the necessity of losing the body to attain that freedom. Who is to say that being extra-corporeal does not have it's own set of rules? From our viewpoint, the extra-corpeal may seem free, (because they can do things that we cannot), but suppose that we can do things that the extra-corporeal cannot. In terms of the absense of desire, when you look at it, all life has it. Who's to say that the extra-corporeal do not have desire? It is obvious that extra-corpeal beings have a limited capacity to act in the physical plane, (otherwise life would be even stranger than it is). That in itself is limitation.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:06 / 06.04.04
I think that the denial of the flesh is fairly 'built in' to the Qabalah, particularly if one considers the influence of the Essenes in the development of Qabalah. Their beliefs regarding the body were described by Jospehus:

"It is indeed their unshakable conviction that bodies are corruptible and the material composing them impermanent, whereas souls remain immortal forever. Coming forth from the most rarefied ether, they are trapped in the prison house of the body as if drawn down by one of nature's spells; but once freed from the bonds of the flesh, as if released after years of slavery, they rejoice and soar aloft. Teaching the same doctrine as the sons of Greece, they declare that for the good souls there waits a home beyond the ocean, a place troubled by neither rain nor snow nor heart, but refreshed by the zephyr that blows ever gentle from the ocean. Bad souls they consign to a darksome, stormy abyss, full of punishments that know no end."

Interesting quote from cusm, in this thread:

The abyss too is an illusion. It represents a barrier we erect between the levels of relaization we can reach as humans, and the levels we can not reach save through divine inspiration, or transcendence through death. There are many paths across to the top three spheres, not all involve death. The divine awaits beyond the abyss, to the dualistic thinker, with the earthly reams below. When one realizes that the macrocosmic and microcosmic are one, there is no abyss for all the spheres are within the self and so are accesible. If the {self,divine} duality is resolved and understood as M3 describes above, death is merely change from one state to another, for there is truely no dissolution or distruction of reality, only change into new states.

And a quote from Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki from an interview here in response to a question about the abyss:

DAN: I’ll tell you something about that. All this hoo-hah about the Abyss. Humanity has been building bridges over large chasms as far back as it could put two bricks together. If you can’t cross the Abyss in your imagination, then get out of the ball game. It is one of the biggest myths, and it is there as a psychological barrier, and if you have anything in you, you will head up and over that, without any trouble. ... (The Abyss) is to protect those who do not have the courage. That’s not to denigrate. There are some people who say, I can’t do this but I’m going to try. There is in some people, such a desire for knowledge, such a desire for understanding, that they will go into a state of non-being to look for it. You do, you get whirled into this point, where the point is you, and you are also everything outside the point. That brings on an enormous sorrow, because you’re everything and you’re nothing. You want to get back, and yet you don’t want to leave, and you go into a state of total acceptance. You give up yourself. Then you move into Hockmah.
 
 
illmatic
08:43 / 06.04.04
Check out this thread as well. Have a read of the ben Rowe essay linked therein, puts forward a strong critque of Crowley derieved ideas of the Abyss.

I'd also suggested having a read of this thread on the Enlightened Ones. What I was trying to do with this thread was gather together first person accounts of mystical experience or enlightenment, in part of provide a corrective to the idea that someone "enlighened" (whatever THAT means) is forever perfected. Crowley wrote a letter in Magick Without Tears entitled "Do Angels ever Cut Themsleves Shaving". That thread called be subtitled "Does an Enlightened One ever have a bad hair day?". In my readings on the subject, I'd say "yep", pretty much definitely. The whole notion of "enlightenment" as a permanent and everlasting state which you can attain becomes a goal we get hung up on.

Choygam Trungpa is particulary worth reading on this score, about the way we future project ideas about enlightenment onto our own paths and cling to them - our ideas about enlightenment become active obstacles to any progress.

To quote Wu Wei Wu (link in other thread):

Doing away with the I-notion is the same as not desiring the personal attainment of enlightenment.

Not desiring that (the 'last desire', the 'last barrier') is 'having it', for 'having it' is in any case merely being rid of that which concealed what is forever that which alone we are.

Therefore not desiring personal attainment of that is at the same time the elimination of the I-notion which constitutes its concealment.

The idea of liberation automatically inhibits the simple realisation that we are free.
 
 
_Boboss
09:09 / 06.04.04
Why my mind got stuck with this body I still have no clue.

they're the same thing! fuck! why is this thread still going?
 
 
illmatic
09:29 / 06.04.04
J'em appelle is right. Your mind is an offsoot of the body, not the other round. Practice some pranayama if you don't believe me, you can clearly feel thoughts coming in waves in time with the breath. Perhaps some of these problesm arise because we insist on mind's independence and are engaged in a futile study to achieve escape velocity. I'm going to be clever and quote Spare:

The impact of flesh on flesh through every logical means is the only logic thing

And:

All good things are obtained though SPUNK

Might have mangled them a bit, so what?
 
 
macrophage
10:53 / 06.04.04
I think alot of us have poor body images, as AOS preached Self Love we should really start to appreciate our bodies to boost our self images of ourselves. So easy to launch ourselves into a disembodied transhumanism and to completely disrespect our bodies. We should become one with our physical shells for want of better words, alignment as apposed to disasociation. Barbelith Boot Camp anybody?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:49 / 06.04.04
The reason why I am not very fond of it at times is because I feel it is controlling me more than I am controlling it.

You are it. You and your body are the same person. What do you think your body is? An awkward little puppy that follows you around? You are your body.
 
 
illmatic
12:01 / 06.04.04
Re: This "ego" you're railing against - is it not possible that the key constituent of this is the illusion of a entity that is separate from your body, (and everything else in the Universe for that matter)?
 
 
Seth
12:01 / 07.04.04
Is the body the final obstacle before enlightenment?

I wholeheartedly agree with both Illmatic and Gypsy's posts in this thread. Anyone who thinks that their physiology isn't their identity should try spending half an hour wearing someone elses. Duplicate their breathing, their posture, the way they move, in as minute detail as possible. Notice the differences in your thoughts and feelings as a result of doing it...

But your question contains another presupposition: that enlightenment is the end point in a process rather than the entirety of the process itself. I've had enough experiences of attaining huge revelatory gnosis and then behaving and thinking in a manner counter to the insight I've received because, well, I'm a wonderful/impoverished human being (delete wherever applicable) and any insight gained must be tested and proven workable by experience. There's no evidence that I can see for a final, complete enlightenment. It's a pretty idea, and a nice vision to have guiding you, but like virtually all things in magic I don't think it's true at all.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:58 / 07.04.04
From Ill's body thread, Mike says:

". Have you ever felt like you could be free if only you didn't have to drag your body around with you? The moment these thoughts start to settle in, even sub/unconciously, they begin to weaken your union with your body.

Your body is your grounding, its the biosystem that makes everything you do real. Even your magick becomes real through your body. If your union with your body is weak, your magick will be weak. "


Quoting here (if ze's still here, hope that's okay) as I really like the way this is put.

I find any system that regards the body as an obstacle to be overcome pretty worrying, wether this arises from 'traditional religious', esoteric, philosophical/theory-based, sociological, to be pretty worrying.

It's a part of you, you're a part of it, I find it interesting that the way the original post is put makes the body sound like an unruly child, who won't do what it's told....
 
 
Olulabelle
21:59 / 07.04.04
Totally not relevant really, but I needed to say, Gypsy Lantern, that I thought this was really moving and just lovely:

If you didn't have the "prison" of the body, you would be unable to eat, drink, smoke, shag, dance, laugh, run, jump, fly kites, sing, play music, fight, paint, write, sculpt, and all of the other activities that require the physical form to accomplish. These activities are divine. We feed and serve the Gods and Spirits by allowing them to partake of the above activities through us, that's what we can offer them, that's what we can do that they can't, it's what the Spirits crave. Being able to do this physical stuff is the most precious and valuable gift you could ever receive. You're alive for fucks sake.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
01:39 / 08.04.04
If we state that the physical body (brain, heart, guts) is your identity, and we state that ascending and casting off the identity is enlightenment, would it not therefore follow that the physical body IS an obstacle to enlightenment?

Basically, believe what you like. The majority of posters here like their bodies and their ego, and so do I, damn it.
 
 
gravitybitch
03:38 / 08.04.04
Just to add to the fuzz...

I really like this: Your mind is an offshoot of the body, not the other round. Practice some pranayama if you don't believe me, you can clearly feel thoughts coming in waves in time with the breath. Perhaps some of these problesm arise because we insist on mind's independence and are engaged in a futile study to achieve escape velocity. ...but! I'm asthmatic, have been for longer than I can remember; and I really don't think that I have/had an asthmatic mind...

Quite the contrary, in fact - I was raised with the basic theory of "Don't get too excited, stay calm; you'll be able to breathe that way;" a paradigm in which the mind has control over the emotions and the body. And, to some degree, this is true... Unless you want to get into a model in which "I" have both a "mind" and a "body," and that "I" inhabits them both. Is this a useful way of looking at the mind/body problem?
 
 
illmatic
10:15 / 08.04.04
Cheers Izabelle. I don't think that quote from me is the 100% truth and nothing but, but I think it makes a useful corrective to the prevailing view in our culture which favours mind over body, IMO. Obviously there's two way feedback. I don't know about having an asthmatic mind, but Wilhelm Reich, Alexander Lowen and others have written quite extensively about how certain armouring patterns - (patterns of physical tension) produce/are synonomous with certain character/personality traits. Part of this armouring would obviously be the breathing ie. whats the difference between someone with abdominal respiraion and shallow, upper chest respiration. Might be something worth observing/playing with.

Funny though - loads of famous magicians were asthmatic - I wonder why that is?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:04 / 08.04.04
loads of famous magicians were asthmatic

Interesting, and makes me think of Bob Flanagan, who I meant to bring up in the context of the Body Alchemy thread. Poet, singer,performance/visual artist, full-time submissive. He suffered from chronic cystic fibrosis and was expected to die in his teens...

He lived till his late '40s, and in interviews connected his unexpected longevity to having, via S/M and peformance, engaged with the (massive)limitations of his body, taken control of pain etc...
 
  
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