BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Eastenders is immoral.

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Tom Coates
21:24 / 03.04.04
Bear with me, because obviously this seems like one of those trollish things that people say when they're in the mood for a fight, but actually - legitimately - I've expressed this sentiment a few times to friends at the BBC and got into a few fights about it. I think I'm confident in my position, anyhow.

So basically Eastenders is pornographic. It's not in any way 'real', obviously - it's not a docudrama, it's not true-to-life. The characters are grotesques, their actions are mostly driven by the reptile components of their heads (territory / sex / power / fighting) and every plotline is about the grinding horror of their lives, and the idea that nothing that seems to be going well will go well for long. Eastenders is - then - basically an attempt to turn the lives of the working class into entertainment by playing up the lurid aspects and as such is exploitative, classist, insulting, vulgar and basically immoral. It's either watched by the middle classes who crave some kind of authenticity that they don't feel in their own lives and want to get it vicariously through simulacra of 'common people' that they'd run screaming from if they met them in real life, or it's watched by those same common people who, by enjoying it, are complicit in their own degradation and in the romanticisation of trauma and poverty.

So I've said it out loud and in public now - I've expressed my feelings with regard to Eastenders. I'm now 'out' as being repulsed by it. Am I alone?!
 
 
Nobody's girl
23:51 / 03.04.04
Thank you Tom, thank you. I absolutely agree with you. All soaps are essentially exploitative in my opinion, not just because of the banal, stereotyped characters portrayed. I think mindless soaps are nursery rhymes sung to lull us all placid, passive. I hate that. Eastenders is a major offender.

I remember someone (a reviewer perhaps) talking about how "The Bill" is generally accepted as the mouthpiece of the police, that they will often use the show as a propaganda tool. The thing is, when I heard that I immediately made a connection to Eastenders. I have an uncomfortable feeling when watching Eastenders that a similar stunt is being pulled on viewers, though I'm really not sure whose interests are being served.

Eastenders is another one of those shows where I feel the need to floss my brain after viewing. Ick.
 
 
Spaniel
14:27 / 04.04.04
Another particularly loathesome feature of the show:

Nothing ever changes. No matter how far they run, the characters can never escape their essential natures.

What a worthwhile, valuable message to send out to millions of viewers every week.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:34 / 04.04.04
Mr. Coates, the abstract alone is an investment of time for which you will surely have to atone at some point in Eternity.

Let us join in chorus, just this once, harmonised or in unison, for I care not, and state our position for all Infinity to know and comprehend. Are you ready?

"Shit"

Now let us speak no more of it.
 
 
Char Aina
20:58 / 04.04.04
i'm with you in that i dislike eastenders, i also believe it to be a collection of grotesques and their pain, but can you demostrate for me why that should be considered immoral?

i believe i can like pornography without being immoral.
i also believe i can like satanic metal without being immoral.
i am even of the opinion that i can enjoy all sorts of depressing art, some of it exploiting simple and unhelpful concepts, without being immoral.

i get the feeling i am missing the point.

i guess what i am asking is where does making a show about the daily grind of the most ground become in any way more exploitative and immoral than people singing/writing/whatevering about their pain? is that different because it is usually more personal? what about singing songs about other people's loves, or writing the racial attack on your fellow pupil at school into your latest comic?


(i promise i am not re-trolling or whatever one might call it)
 
 
Char Aina
21:01 / 04.04.04
when we say moral...
i should say that one of my examples has made me think.
satanic metal is very obviously immoral if we use the traditional church definition; i am assuming a more humanist/libertarian kinda definition. morals like something along the lines of 'life-ethics'.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:45 / 04.04.04
Nothing ever changes. No matter how far they run, the characters can never escape their essential natures.

I'm quite uncomfortable about that aspect of most soaps myself. The characters aren't allowed to develop or be anything more than the sum of their parts, and I dunno, all the people I've met in life - regardless of 'class' - are a lot more complex and unpredictable than that. I didn't used to mind Brookside sometimes, because it was nuts, and that seemed a bit more realistic to me than the broad functional roles that people seem to fill in eastenders.

I just find it all so horribly limiting and depressing, and couldn't handle sitting down every week and having that kind of thing drummed into me. I think that the character of say, Mark Fowler, is no more realistic or believable than the character of The Rock from the WWE. The only difference is that Fowler can't, as far as I'm aware, convincingly lay the smackdown on any of the assorted candyass jabronies that hang round albert square.

On the pornography front, I saw some of this channel 4 drama recently that was set on a council estate in manchester - I didn't catch the title of it, but it was just really unpleasant to watch. It really did feel like an exagerated pantomime of 'how working class people must live', concocted to titilate and entertain some imagined middle class viewing demograph. Horrible. I mean, in a lot of ways Pheonix Nights was a more accurate portrait of working class culture in the north west of england than that shite, whatever it was.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:23 / 05.04.04
I would argue that Tom's thesis is sound, not just for television soaps, but for any art form where there is no clearly intended beginning and end, except for the vagaries of viewing numbers (except possibly Peanuts). It's the same for X-Men. The mansion will be rebuilt, at some point someone will think it's cool for Jean to come back, Professor X to return, probably everyone that died of the Legacy Virus to come back etc etc. The only difference is that TV actors have the power to say "I've had enough of this shit, I'm leaving because I have delusions that I'm a much better actress than all of this shit, I'll do commercials for Orange!"

All of these shows are about the careful maintenance of the status quo so that in one month, one year, five years time there will still be product to sell.
 
 
Warewullf
11:03 / 05.04.04
I hate Eastenders and soaps in general.

What I particualrly hate is people who watch it and think it's true to life. How the hell can you identify with these chracters who never talk about what happened in Corrie last night and drink "cans of pop"?!

Also, a while ago at a party I had to listen to a conversation about what happened in Eastenders the night before and the strupid crazy antics the horrid wretches got up to. Afterwards, myself and friend started talking about X-MEN 2 and he was asking why Iceman didn't just freeze all the water coming out of the dam at the end and as I was explainging why he couldn't, the Eastenders-lover chimes in, very louldy, with "Oh who cares?! It's not real!!"

Whereas, of course, Eastenders is a documentary.
 
 
Jub
11:08 / 05.04.04
Okay Tom, as no one else has, I feel duty bound to argue with your central premise, in defence of the popularity of the show, if nothing else. First you say it's not true to life, then describe how essentially their characters are horrid and depressing. You then go on to surmise that the entire show is *therefore* (!) an attempt to exploit the working class.

The whole idea of a “soap opera” suggests an overt incongruity between the daily mundaneness of the narrative and the lofty form it takes. This is nothing new – soaps have been with us almost as long as television and radio have.

As Flowers says above, the open form of most soaps is to keep them going and project whatever ideals they’re espousing. In the case of Eastenders this might be a number of things, not necessarily all good, but which deserves credit as the viewing figures project that whatever this message is, the public enjoy it. In fact the whole long term nature of soaps means that the plot and characters can be adjusted subject to feedback from fans, and market research.

(btw Flowers, some soaps – primarily in South America – have a closed form, such that a story works toward a resolution; these soaps lasting between 3-6 months).

Soap Operas in general – and owing to its frequency, especially Eastenders – are perhaps among the most complex things on TV. They require an awful lot from the viewer, such that one’s own memory “fills in” parts of the narrative of each program, since previous day’s events are rarely referred to. I’m not sure how you can say that they are classist, insulting, or immoral when for over 50 years soaps have cut across demographics (despite originally being aimed at young housewives).

It appears that the UK soaps have much more narrative based on their characters’ position in societal structures than their US counterparts true; but this is merely a reflection of audience expectation and viewer choice.

Eastenders was introduced by the BBC as a model perhaps based on the popular class northern soap “Coronation Street” which was specifically designed by ITV for the working class/lower-middle class demographic. It was always going to include story lines about contemporary social issues.

Bobossboy Nothing ever changes. No matter how far they run, the characters can never escape their essential natures.
Not to be flippant, but when have you ever seen someone on TV or elsewhere escape their essential nature?

Whether or not it deserves people’s derision as “pornographic” – Eastenders continues the tradition of soaps as being the most popular genre of television drama in the country - and as such I think this derision is undeserved.
 
 
Spaniel
16:20 / 05.04.04
Not to be flippant, but when have you ever seen someone on TV or elsewhere escape their essential nature?

Not to be flippant, but, PLEASE!

What do you mean by "essential nature"? Fate? Genetics? Psychology? Personal History?
If you'd like to continue this discussion I suggest we swing by The Headshop.

As for

Whether or not it deserves people’s derision as “pornographic” – Eastenders continues the tradition of soaps as being the most popular genre of television drama in the country - and as such I think this derision is undeserved.

Of what do you talk? Eastenders may or may not deserve derision as "pornographic, but as it remains the most popular example of the most popular televisual genre, it doesn't deserve to be derised.

Er?

Do you mean that because Eastenders is so popular we can't slag it off, and/or accuse it of being pornographic? Well, I for one beg to differ. Popularity has absolutely nothing to do with it. The Circus Maximus was once a very popular entertainment... blah... blah... who can be bothered...?
 
 
pornotaxi
17:21 / 05.04.04
what amazes me most about this particular televisual outrage is that no-one really has to struggle to bring home the bio-tickets. they all live in inner city london, yet there's someone working in a caff, another in a pub, a boy sweeping the street, someone else has a wee market stall selling tat - and that's it, everyone else has a childlike infinity of free time just milling around poking into each other's personal dramas.

did i miss the crucial episode where they all won the lottery and stopped worrying about paying the bills?
 
 
Jub
17:48 / 05.04.04
Bobossboy - you were the one that brought up "essential nature" - but insofar as they are characters (in a SOAP OPERA!) - I would argue that they can. Lofty went off to join the army, Michelle went to the US, Mark went off on his bike to look at stuff, Den did a runner leaving everyone thinking he was dead. How is that them not getting away from their essential natures - as you put it?

Overall though - I would say that becasue so many people watch it, it must have something which appeals to them. Therefore it doesn't deserve too much derision. Making exagerated comparisons is easy but unfair.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:08 / 05.04.04
Do you actually/have you ever watched it regularly, Tom? because it doesn't sound like it.

Basically I think this is bollocks but to avoid trollishness, I'll have a go at explaining why.

(Gypsy, the thing you're talking is, I suspect, Shameless which I might argue is a much better candidate for Tom's pornography thesis.)

How on earth is Eastenders romanticising anything? It's depressing, people have horrible times, every time a cliche of 'we all pull togevver round ere' is set up, which it *is* guilty of doing pretty often, it's trashed as something else falls apart.

Is the portait of life a la Albert Square one that *anyone* wants to step into?

So, to you it's damned if it does portray aspirational/connectivity-provoking elements, as presumably this is pornographic, romanticising and sucks the plebs into its evil web.

But it's damned if it doesn't, as it pornographically makes its characters miserable for our enjoyment.

And this second is the nature of a hell of alot of television, comics, films, etc. How about Chris Morris/Jam? Or Human Remains? Marion and Geoff? Alan Partidge? The Office?

What's the difference? Are they all pornographic? So why use Eastenders as your example. What's distinctively 'immoral' about it?

These fictional characters are driven by their relationship to money, sex, family, love, location, power, jobs, study etc... Which are things that no real people ever relate to, oh no. Please note that I'm not saying I think it's realistic.

So what if the pace is turned up rather, we don't tend to enjoy watching television that accurately reflects the slow/uneventful pace of most of our lives minute-by-minute, oddly enough. Again, name me shows that operate on a long-term basis that don't do that. We'd die of boredom otherwise. And it's a general rule that we find grim things more interesting, that's not Eastenders fault, any more than it's

And people do move on/escape, it's just, again a soap convention(presumably due to production costs), we don't follow them when they do. They pass out of the show's purlieu when they do.

Good things do happen. We had a person who'd desperately wanted to get into their chosen career getting into college and then passing exams, an ongoing will they/won't they couple finally spit it out and become a happy couple...

Basically, I think you're waaaaay overstating this, and doing yourself out of some potentially useful arguments as to why Eastenders is crap along the way. Or yr critique might be better applied to the soap genre in general, which as Flowers points out has limitations of all sorts, and pops up in varying media.


Me, I like it, on and off. The quality of writing/acting varies incredibly, and when bad it's awful, but when good it can be some of the best British drama on TV.

I think this is a soapsnob thing, to a huge extent. I also think you're making some horrendously patronising assumptions about why people might watch it, and making class distinction alot simple than it actually is.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:09 / 05.04.04
I would say that becasue so many people watch it, it must have something which appeals to them. Therefore it doesn't deserve too much derision

Ahhh, but you see, Jub, you've missed something major here. We're Barbelith, if so many people watch it, it must be bad.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:19 / 05.04.04
Damn this not being able to see the original post. grr.

It's either watched by the middle classes who crave some kind of authenticity that they don't feel in their own lives and want to get it vicariously through simulacra of 'common people' that they'd run screaming from if they met them in real life, or it's watched by those same common people who, by enjoying it, are complicit in their own degradation and in the romanticisation of trauma and poverty.

If yr serious about this, and not just strategically poking, then JeeeesusChrist.

Crap.

It's drama/fiction, Tom, and I think most people recognise it as such, whether or not is has elements which are recognisable to them or not. There *are* things in Eastenders which mark it as realistic, in comparison to say, Red Dwarf. Or Footballer's Wives.

Whch viewers are middle class, and which working class? Nice neat division between the two, is there? The ones that fit in with your thesis, presumably?

So if you're 'working class' and watch it, you're complicit in your own degradation, presmably because you're not smart enough to take it just as a TV show? And it'll influence you, because it speaks to you. Even though it's not realistic, yes?

Whereas if you're middle-class you're neccessarily poking the proles? Because you would have no interest/investment in a soap otherwise? You're better than that, right?

Sorry, but I find that a damn sight more offensive a view of humanity than Eastenders
 
 
Tom Coates
07:39 / 06.04.04
Well no, obviously I don't believe that there's a clear and distinct wall you have to jump over to become middle class - it's a rough abstraction designed to make a crude point. And no I wasn't saying that soaps were beneath the middle classes at all, I was saying that the middle classes liked Eastenders because they got off on their perceived authenticity of it, like these people were "really living" their lives where middle class people tend to feel inauthentic and safe. You know, "She came from Greece she had a thirst for knowledge" kind of thing. And let me make it clear that romanticising something doesn't mean making it look good - how many operas end with the swan-like main female lead falling apart in some catastrophic fashion or something like that? Misery can be romanticised just as much as victory and people can pine for drama in their lives even if the kind of drama they're watching would be resolutely unappealing to them if they had to experience it first-hand...
 
 
The Falcon
08:21 / 06.04.04
The working class watch Eastenders like fuck, anyway. More'n anybody else. Do they know they're being exploited?

And that drama, Shameless, made it look great fun to be of that stratum.
 
 
Spaniel
17:08 / 06.04.04
Jub, so the only time the character's failings don't come back to bite them in the arse is when they've left the series? Change as absence? No thanks.

Before we go any further, are you really trying to argue with my basic premise - that character change is rare, if not impossible within the confines of the ongoing narrative - or are you just trying to defend a show you happen to like?

The thing is, I'm not in this to slate Benders. I don't have very strong feelings one way or another, but I do find some aspects of the show problematic.

Also, I still don't see that popularity precludes derision. That isn't to say, however, that Eastenders deserves a big ol' slagging, just that it might.
 
 
Jub
08:07 / 07.04.04
are you really trying to argue with my basic premise - that character change is rare, if not impossible within the confines of the ongoing narrative - or are you just trying to defend a show you happen to like?

since you've now changed your basic premise, no, I'm not
arguing with you. I was arguing with your *original* basic premise. I just think it needed some tweaking and you've tweaked it. It's changed a bit since this:
Nothing ever changes. No matter how far they run, the characters can never escape their essential natures.

All the characters change - so I guess it all depends on your definition of the word "change". Even within the confines of the narrative... haven't you noticed how most people come to the square as baddies, and slowly become more engaging characters, eg Billy Mitchell. Introduced as a nephew beating alcoholic bully. Now, has respectability of sorts, married the hapless little Mo, etc.

Also - I never said I particularly liked Eastenders, in fact I think it's dross. However, I don't think dismissing something as pornographic and immoral is proper when so many people like it. Vive le opéra de savon (or is that feuillton?)
 
 
Tom Coates
08:56 / 07.04.04
Well of course a hell of lot of people also like pornography, so I'm not sure that your statement there makes that much sense. Popular opinion and consensus almost certainly does have an impact on what we believe to be practical, pragmatic and often reasonable, but it doesn't mean that it's automatically 'moral'. Page 3 in the Sun is clearly on the path towards pornography and it's the most popular newspaper in the country, the Daily Mail is one of the most duplicitous newspapers in the country in its deformation of evidence to fit its agenda, and yet again it's also one of the most popular. I think that's pretty immoral too. And again - the war in Iraq is generally derided on the European continent as being immoral, but is widely celebrated in the United States. There's a whole range of things that are popular and yet certainly could be seen as fundamentally not right - from the totally trivial to the most epically important. My personal opinion is that Eastenders fits in that arc somewhere.
 
 
Spaniel
14:47 / 07.04.04
However, I don't think dismissing something as pornographic and immoral is proper when so many people like it.

Do you really mean this? Because I think it's a pretty weak position. Or are you concerned that such accusations get dangerously close to patronising the show's enormous (and enormously diverse) audience? Are you worried that we're being condescending pricks?
Assuming that this is your concern, even if Tom is being a condescending prick, does that make his worries any less worthy of investigation?

Sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth.
 
 
Jub
15:18 / 07.04.04
Yeah - no worries Bobossboy, I'm still thinking on that one. I see Tom's point but it just seems - um - a bit too severe somehow. Need to think on that a bit more before offering a reasonable response.

And as for you!! - what are you saying about the whole "essential natures" vs change thing?
 
 
Spaniel
15:54 / 07.04.04
I really can't be bothered to write a big ol' post (at work - the lith's the only thing stopping me from going home).

But I suppose a rough scetch will do for the time being.

A few incoherent thoughts:

Characters retain their flaws forever. Why? Firstly, because it is expedient that they do so - it gives the writer a hook, a cheap way of getting a story. Secondly, because soap characters need to be easily recognisable - it's no good saying Dirty Den is on his way back if people have to ask what Dirty Den is like. Thirdly, it makes any success pregnant with failure - in other words it makes drama effortless. Stories like Ian's latest little wannabe romance take on an extra dimension of tension* because we know that one day she's going to recognise him for the pathetic little fuck he is. I could go on but my train is coming. Will revisit later.


Huzzah, I'm a poet.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:34 / 07.04.04
Tom, you are on bad crack cocaine. I'm sorry, but WHAT?

Glad b.i.p. and Jub got there first...

But seriously. Where's my badly-thought out, patronising, self-contradictory "comics are immoral" thread?

Will come back when rage has subsided.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:13 / 07.04.04
Misery can be romanticised just as much as victory and people can pine for drama in their lives even if the kind of drama they're watching would be resolutely unappealing to them if they had to experience it first-hand...

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I wanted to see where you stood on what the effects of this romanticising was. You seem to be under the impression that people, aside from you, presumably, watch Eastenders and swallow it whole, and either treat it as verite, giving them 'grit', or verite giving them recoginition/confirmation of their own sad little lives.

This is unbelievalby patronising, ignorant and plain stupid.

You don't seem to find opera pornographic, in the same way. This thread isn't entitled 'Brunnhillde is immoral', is it? Why is that? Personally I think your characterisation of/comparison with opera is pretty facile. But then I didn't make it. So, is Brunhilde pornography? How about X-men?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:23 / 08.04.04
Eastenders can be rubbish. People who watch it admit this but that doesn't make Dirty Den's manipulation of his son any less fun to watch. Eastenders is actually very good at keeping drama really tight, the best episodes are almost always played out between two characters and they tend to break out of the grotesque whenever that happens. So in response to this whole notion I'd like to say that Eastenders is remarkably frustrating 80% of the time and at times it's depressing but how on earth can pure fiction be exploitative? If fiction can be that awful than I'd nominate Palanhuik's bullshit story in The Guardian, not Eastenders.

In addition- a number of characters in EE aren't working class etc. etc. If anything the show is a comment on people's reluctance to move house and that is really the most fucking annoying thing about it. Ian Beale go AWAY.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:58 / 08.04.04
Yes, I'm aware of that, but I wanted to see where you stood on what the effects of this romanticising was. You seem to be under the impression that people, aside from you, presumably, watch Eastenders and swallow it whole, and either treat it as verite, giving them 'grit', or verite giving them recoginition/confirmation of their own sad little lives.

This is unbelievalby patronising, ignorant and plain stupid.


Y'know, I just don't agree with this line that people don't passively consume. I understand that consumption of cultural artefacts is a complicated process, and, yes, we negotiate our relationships w/ the texts we interface w/ in many, many different ways, but the idea that all of us at some time or other don't swallow certain ideas/narratives/representations pretty much whole seems IMO utterly ridiculous. Everyone's guilty of it.

Honestly, you fucking want to hang out with my house-mate more.

Some people work harder and more consciously with texts than others.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:03 / 08.04.04
BiP, at the moment it sounds like you're saying, "I don't like it when you slag off my show because I like my show and if you slag off my show you're also slagging off me and the all the other people that like my show (and my show is very popular so that's a lot of people)."

This isn't an argument. Forgive me if I'm just not thinking hard enough, but I believe the onus is upon you to clarify your position.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:04 / 08.04.04
That last post was Boboss, BTW.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:05 / 08.04.04
We're in the womb....sorry, "room" together.
 
 
suds
14:19 / 08.04.04
eastenders sucks. it's just totally boring. i stopped watching it about a year ago. not because it's "immoral", that's too daily mail for me, but because i work nights.
 
 
Jub
14:32 / 08.04.04
Tsk! I don't know - you think you know someone...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:40 / 08.04.04
okay. I'll try again.

I don't think Eastenders is that good, in TV drama terms ... I enjoy watching it very much, and I think it can be brilliant. It can also be awful.

I think that Tom's critique is a pile of steaming hyperbole, and if you read my posts less selectively, I say that some parts of his critique are accurate, but want to know why Eastenders is particularly singled out. Why not soap in general, opera, etc?

This is where I think the snobbery factor comes in. That because it's popular, and mainstream, it's somehow worse. And he tops it off with some incredibly crude characterisations of class.

And yes, boboss ((?) god, i never could tell the diff, i'm not going to manage online am I?) I agree that we do sometimes/often consume passively, but again, Tom's original contentions are waaay too sweeping, he seems to completely ignore the possiblity of complexity in people's experience of Eastenders. As if Eastenders is uniquely able to project its zombie-rays and turn us into total consumers....
 
 
The Natural Way
16:38 / 08.04.04
The "passive consumption" post was me, me, me, actually.

Boboss was responsible for the one that came after it.

It really is confusing, isn't it?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply